The Jon's Parentage Re-Read 2

[Jon Targaryen]

This is a continuation of the Jon's Parentage Re-Read thread. Here is a link to the old thread. We are currently discussing old topics and are on week 6.

Here is the old original post.

The Jon's Parentage Re-Read

I tried reading through the R+L=J stickied threads, both the two up there and the one archived in the back of the forum recently. I quickly gave up. The problem as I see it is that it is not a systematic and comprehensive discussion of even R+L=J, much less the broader picture of Jon's Parentage. It flits from minor sub-topic to minor sub-topic and even off-topic from time to time. Perhaps some people prefer that "thread" aspect. I do not.

So I decided to create a thread to have a thorough and comprehensive (through AFFC) discussion of Jon's Parentage. I will post quotes below from AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC, and the SSM. We will discuss something like 8 or 9 quotes a week and comment on them. Once that is done, we will review Maester Luwin's FAQ on J'sP and Ran and Linda's FAQ on J'sP. Then we each write a summary of our conclusions.

This is not an R+L=J thread. This is a Jon's Parentage thread. All theories will be under examination. Since this is a re-read of the text, of necessity only some theories will be discussed during the re-read. But all will be open during the summary session.

The quotes I have are listed below. Shewoman has a similar, perhaps more extensive, list of quotes that she has tried to e-mail me but we haven't been able to connect. If anyone else has some more quotes to add, please add them in the thread and I will edit this post. From my schedule, it looks as if we could do AGOT in six weeks, ACOK, ASOS/AFFC, the SSM, and the FAQs in a week each. Then one to two weeks for the summaries and debates.

Anyone is welcome, especially those that do not support R+L=J. I would like to see some good discussion and debate here, but no flames.

Anyway, enough preamble, here are the quotes.

All page numbers from AGOT, ACOK, ASOS from the US Trade Paperback edition. The page number for the AFFC quote is from the US Mass Market Paperback edition.

Week 1

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black ... He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." - AGOT 13 GRRM description by Bran

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14 Ned

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25 GRRM description by Dany

"The midnight flight to Dragonstone [right before the battle of the Ruby Ford] ... She had been born at Dragonstone nine moons after their flight"

AGOT 25, Dany's thoughts about herself contributed by Shewoman

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was ... fond of flowers." AGOT 35-36 Ned and GRRM description by Ned

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." AGOT 36 Robert

"In my dreams I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

There was nothing Ned could say to that.

AGOT 36, Robert and Ned's thoughts contributed by Shewoman

"There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly but ��‚��"

"I understand," Ned said softly.

AGOT 38 Ned and Robert

"Daeren (sic) Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes -aGoT, p 45. Jon and Jon's thoughts, provided by Other-in-Law

Week 2

Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers." AGOT 47 Tyrion

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him, and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.

AGOT 55 Catelyn thoughts

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name ... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned." AGOT 55 Ned

"And yet there was that one time ... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was ... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Meryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

AGOT 92 Robert and Ned

"And Rhaegar ... how many times you think he raped you sister? How many hundreds of times?" AGOT 94 Robert

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. AGOT 96 Ned thoughts

Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. AGOT 97 Ned thoughts

Week 3

"He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." AGOT 103 Tyrion thoughts

He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

AGOT 152 Jon thoughts

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once. AGOT 167 Ned thoughts

"'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." AGOT 186 Ned

"And even the lie was ... not without honor." AOGT 187 Ned

Robb looked relieved. "Good." He smiled. "The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."

Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color."

AGOT 79

Week 4

"And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.

AGOT 225 Jon

It would be good to return to Winterfell. He ought never have left. His sons were waiting there.

AGOT 298 Ned thoughts

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. AGOT 299 Ned thoughts

The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. AGOT 318 Ned thoughts

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." AGOT 318 Lyanna and Ned thoughts

Robert would swear undying love and forget them by evenall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them. AGOT 318 Ned thoughts

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

AGOT 319 Ned thoughts

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. AGOT 320 Ned thoughts

Week 5

Tower of Joy Ned remembering

AGOT 354-355

Rhaegar ... Rhaegar won, damn him. ... He has Lyanna now, and I have her. AGOT 359 Robert

Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her? AGOT 374 Jon thoughts

Ned thought, It it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? AGOT 406 Ned thoughts

"The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." Cersei

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."

AGOT 406 Ned thoughts

"You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?"

AGOT 407 Cersei

Week 6

Last of all, he came to the tomb where father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. AGOT 419 Ned thoughts

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him. AGOT 420 Ned thoughts

The lies we tell for love, he thought. AGOT 422 Ned thoughts

"Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

AGOT 422 Robert and Ned

The scene where Jon attacks Ser Alliser after Ned's capture.

AGOT 471

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. AGOT 525 Ned thoughts

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles had died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

AGOT 526-527 Ned thoughts

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If he could only see the boy again, sit and talk with him

AGOT 530 Ned thoughts

(Dany saves some Lamb women from slavery and rape.)

"You are your brother's sister, in truth."

"Viserys?" She did not understand.

"No," he answered. "Rhaegar."

AGOT 558 Dany and Jorah

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

AGOT 613 Osha and Bran

"We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

...

"It was something to do about Jon, I think."

AGOT 611 Bran

Week 7

His father had sent letters to the Lord of Greywater over the years, but none of the crannogmen had ever called at Winterfell.

ACOK 249 Bran thoughts

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness ��‚�� mother of dragons, bride of fire

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

Bael the Bard story

ACOK 561 Ygritte

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell ... he saw that he was dining with the dead ... But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

ACOK 608-609 Theon thoughts

Week 8

"As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her tomb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The masters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, "I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior."

ASOS 91 Barristan

"You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna."

ASOS 193 Harwin

Knight of the Laughing Tree Story, specifically Rhaegar being sent to find the Knight.

ASOS 279-283 Meera

"The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all."

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

ASOS 486 Barristan and Dany

"He[Jon Snow] is my milk brother."

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

...

"Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born."

"Why would she do that?" said Arya, startled.

...

"My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal ..."

ASOS 494-495 Edric Dayne and Arya

Scene where Jon attacks Iron Emmett in a red rage.

ASOS p.892

"There is some good to be said of my father, surely?"

"There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, your mother ... and Rhaegar. Him most of all."

ASOS 815 Barristan and Dany

The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then.

ASOS 895

"Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own."

AFFC 113 Jon

Week 9

some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born -- which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times. - GRRM, November 5th, 1998

1. Will there be any further explanation of the skirmish at the "Tower of Joy", by Howland Reed or whomever?

Yes, in later volumes.

December 28th, 1998

Was Aegon the Dragon married with Rhaenys and Visenya at the same time?

Yes.

June 17th, 1999

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

And

As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

July 11th, 1999

This one is probably trivial, but when did Benjen join the Watch? Right after the war against the Targaryens, more or less?

Pretty much, yes. Probably around about the time Ned returned from the south and Catelyn and Robb and Jon took up residence.

June 14th, 2000

(1) I asked about getting more info about Jon's parentage at the Menlo Park Q&As . . . he mentioned that it wouldn't be in #4 but it would be in #5 and on . . . so, we can argue about Rhaegar and Lyanna for the next several years; [Note: This is when ADWD was book 4 and TWOW was book 5]

November 11th, 2000

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

June 6th, 2001

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

June 13th, 2001

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

January 2nd, 2002

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

February 28th, 2002

(7) TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS: Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.

HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*

August 29th, 2002

When was the year of the false spring?

Don't have my references to hand, but it was a year or two before the start of Robert's Rebellion.

April 3rd 2003

[Angalin]

"All the smiles" that died when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, by implication, specifically included Robert's and those of his buddies - immediately before that quote Ned states that he was with them at the time and was watching Robert smiling immediately before the crowning. I feel that Robert's smiles didn't die because the crown prince had just committed a social faux pas, but that it was more of a, "Hey. That's my girl. Hands off!" reaction. So I think that Robert and Lyanna were betrothed at the time.

Yes, I noticed that about Robert being one of the smiling ones. But I don't think the Reeds say anything about it to Bran when they tell him the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree... can't remember. See, I feel it might have made a difference to Lyanna if she'd still been free when she met Rhaegar; she would have had him to compare with Robert. BUT: if it's not okay with her that Robert doesn't stick to one bed, why would it be okay with her for Rhaegar to stray from Elia's?

[Angalin]

[edited to remove double post by Thing 1]

[Jon Targaryen]

Week 6

Last of all, he came to the tomb where father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

AGOT 419 Ned thoughts

R+L=J lens: Ned has to go into the crypts, arriving at Lyanna last. She is wearing the crown of pale blue roses Rhaegar gave her. Is this some indication that Lyanna loved Rhaegar?

N+A=J and N+W=J lenses: n/a

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him. AGOT 420 Ned thoughts

R+L=J lens: I will go into my "Our dreams are not always literal" theory when we get to that SSM. For now, I'll just say I think it is very important that Ned sees three men in white cloaks one at a time and a strange chill goes through him.

N+A=J and N+W=J lenses: n/a

The lies we tell for love, he thought. AGOT 422 Ned thoughts

Ok, this one could apply to all three.

R+L=J lens: Ned is lying that Jon is his son. That he cheated on Catelyn. To Robert about harboring a Targaryen or Targaryen bastard. Witholding truth from Jon. Probably some others I'm forgetting.

N+A=J lens and N+W=J lens: Ned is withholding truth from Catelyn and Jon. Under N+W=J he has told Robert though whereas he hasn't under N+A=J.

So it would appear that R+L is the strongest for this quote imo.

"Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

AGOT 422 Robert and Ned

To provide context, Robert is making Ned promise to eat the boar. So not much application. Just Ned hearing the same words. If Robert had been making Ned promise to protect his children, that would be a different matter. But he didn't.

The scene where Jon attacks Ser Alliser after Ned's capture.

AGOT 471

R+L=J lens: Often provided as evidence of Jon's "waking the dragon" Targaryen rage. I agree in that it seems like Aerion. I think Viserys was just a cruel punk. However, it could just be seen as "wolf blood" as well.

N+A and N+W lenses: Stark "wolf blood"

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

AGOT 525 Ned thoughts

R+L lens: Well, Ned has fulfilled his promise to protect the baby if he made one. So the only promise I can think he broke is to reveal Jon's parentage to Jon at some point in time.

N+A and N+W lenses: Ned's marriage oath to Catelyn.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles had died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

AGOT 526-527 Ned thoughts

This just covers R+L. Rhaegar gave the laurel to Lyanna. So he desired her in some fashion whether it was prophecy or lust. And Lyanna loved winter roses. I guess Ned is referring to before she received the laurel.

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If he could only see the boy again, sit and talk with him

AGOT 530 Ned thoughts

R+L lens: Ned is ashamed that he has not told Jon who his parents were. Fits in with broken promises.

N+A and N+W lenses: Ned is ashamed of Jon himself. I don't see how that fills him with sorrow though or makes Ned want to talk to him.

(Dany saves some Lamb women from slavery and rape.)

"You are your brother's sister, in truth."

"Viserys?" She did not understand.

"No," he answered. "Rhaegar."

AGOT 558 Dany and Jorah

R+L only. Simple, really. Rhaegar was not one to rape or to condone rape.

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

AGOT 613 Osha and Bran

R+L only. Bran is repeating the stories he has heard from the guardsmen. Certainly not from Ned. Ned wouldn't talk about it either way. Really, this seems to me to be George throwing a red herring out there because it is so obvious.

"We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

...

"It was something to do about Jon, I think."

AGOT 611 Bran

This ties in with Ned wanting to write a letter (I think I forgot that quote). Ned is trying to communicate through the spirit world to have Bran tell something to Jon. His parentage? Could work for any of the theories.

[Jon Targaryen]

If no one is going to respond, I'll respond to Shewoman's analysis of week 6.

QUOTE

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him.

AGOT 420 Ned thoughts

It can't have been easy for Ned to kill Arthur Dayne--and I'm speaking of psychological difficulty.

I never considered that. Ned must have hated to kill the best knight of his generation.

QUOTE

The lies we tell for love, he thought.

AGOT 422 Ned thoughts

Jaime Lannister: "The things I do for love." Interesting parallel between those two men.

Wow! That's a good one. Let's look at what they were. Jaime pushed a child (Bran) out of his window to kill him for love. Ned, assuming R+L, lied to Jon, Catelyn, Robert and the world about Jon's parentage.

QUOTE

The scene where Jon attacks Ser Alliser after Ned's capture.

AGOT 471

Jon is in no doubt as to who his father is or what he thinks of him.

Yes, that is a good point as well. The very fiber of Jon's being is that Ned is his father. It will be a real rude awakening if his father does not turn out to be Ned.

I agree with all the other analysis. Good job this week, Shewoman.

[Lady Cheesevillage]

If no one is going to respond, I'll respond to Shewoman's analysis of week 6.

QUOTE

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him.

AGOT 420 Ned thoughts

It can't have been easy for Ned to kill Arthur Dayne--and I'm speaking of psychological difficulty.

I never considered that. Ned must have hated to kill the best knight of his generation.

And in thinking about that awful deed, I'm now wondering: Why did he have to kill him? Why wouldn't the KG let Ned through to the ToJ? If we run with the theory that Asharra and others had already left the baby/babies, and Ned and company just needed to be stalled... Why not let Ned in to see his sister, who could probably distract him for long enough? Certainly the KG cannot imagine that they were needed to protect Lyanna from Ned? Could Ned ever possibly have hurt Lyanna?

It makes more sense if the baby is still in the ToJ, since while Arthur and Co. could probably not imagine Ned hurting Lyanna, if they'd heard about the events at KL they would know that other children had been killed. Even knowing Ned, they might not wanted to risk that.

But why would Ned be so insistent to get to Lyanna that he'd kill Arthur? If he knew she was afe in the ToJ, why not talk about it? Why kill to get through to her? Unless he thought she was not safe at all, but suffering in some fashion...

Really, I have no theories...

[Shewoman]

Thanks, JT. It must have taken you forever to post all those quotes! I like the "lenses."

And how reassuring to know we can argue about Jon's parentage for years to come! Can't you see us all in the ASOIAF nursing home, demanding roast swan stuffed with almonds and, of course, lemon cakes to follow while hitting each other over the head with our walkers and screaming "Theon! Jon's parents must be Theon and Melisandre! It's so obvious!"

Lady Cheesevillage, it's hard to know exactly what the people at ToJ knew. For instance, did they know that Tywin ordered the deaths of Elia and her children? If they thought it was Robert (and didn't know Ned well), they might have thought he'd come there to finish the job.

If Rhaegar required an oath of them, it might have been not to let anyone who didn't support him into the Tower. I agree that the baby's presence would be a better justification for the KG's action than Lyanna alone would. Is it possible that they were still hoping to keep the fact of the baby's existence a secret and they knew she'd tell her brother the truth?

With Lyanna having been missing for roughly a year, I'm not sure Ned would have any patience with anyone who was trying to keep him from her.

[Jon Targaryen]

Really, I have no theories...

I have a theory but I want to wait until we get to the "Our dreams are not always literal" SSM before I get into it. The theory really hinges on that SSM. You can find it somewhere in the latest R+L=J sticky thread.

Thanks, JT. It must have taken you forever to post all those quotes! And how reassuring to know we can argue about Jon's parentage for years to come!

The quotes was just copying and pasting after I clicked on the edit button. But to your third sentence - oh yes. I want to revive this thread for each new book that comes out. If there are any new SSMs or blog entries we can add those in at the time the new book comes out.

[Prince of the North]

Thanks, JT. It must have taken you forever to post all those quotes! I like the "lenses."

And how reassuring to know we can argue about Jon's parentage for years to come! Can't you see us all in the ASOIAF nursing home, demanding roast swan stuffed with almonds and, of course, lemon cakes to follow while hitting each other over the head with our walkers and screaming "Theon! Jon's parents must be Theon and Melisandre! It's so obvious!"

HA! Yes, it is comforting and I can definitely see your scenario happening

Lady Cheesevillage, it's hard to know exactly what the people at ToJ knew. For instance, did they know that Tywin ordered the deaths of Elia and her children? If they thought it was Robert (and didn't know Ned well), they might have thought he'd come there to finish the job.

These are all questions that keep my mind buzzing: what did they know at the ToJ when Ned showed up, how did they learn it, and from whom did they learn it? Unfortunately, we'll probably find out the answers to these questions at the precise moment we find out what happened at the ToJ!

If Rhaegar required an oath of them, it might have been not to let anyone who didn't support him into the Tower. I agree that the baby's presence would be a better justification for the KG's action than Lyanna alone would. Is it possible that they were still hoping to keep the fact of the baby's existence a secret and they knew she'd tell her brother the truth?

I tend to think you hit upon it with your last question above. I think the answer is, yes, the KG were fighting a delaying action for the escape of someone (Ashara?) with the baby and that they knew, if they were victorious, everything would remain secret for awhile longer. I also have trouble with the reasoning that the baby was still at the ToJ. Why go to Starfall at all then? To return Dawn? C'mon, with a newborn babe in tow who you had sworn to protect? I'm not really buyin' the 'returning Dawn' story right now. No, I think it's more plausible that Ned and Howland made haste to Starfall to retrieve the baby and that the Dayne family, upon learning the sordid details, would willingly help Ned to try to set things right, protect the child, and prevent the story from getting out.

With Lyanna having been missing for roughly a year, I'm not sure Ned would have any patience with anyone who was trying to keep him from her.

This is true. Also, this brings to mind another question: do we have any idea where Lyanna and Rhaegar were during the year they were missing? I mean, the easy answer is the ToJ but, if that's the case, how were they being supplied and how many people (servants, etc.) were coming and going? If they weren't at the ToJ for the entire time then they had to be holed up somewhere else and, if they were somewhere besides the ToJ for awhile, my bet right now would be Starfall with Arthur and Ashara.

[Prince of the North]

I have a theory but I want to wait until we get to the "Our dreams are not always literal" SSM before I get into it. The theory really hinges on that SSM. You can find it somewhere in the latest R+L=J sticky thread.

I'll be very interested to hear your theory

[Shewoman]

I'm interested as well.

I've always thought that Lyanna and Rhaegar were at the ToJ up until Rhaegar left to go to the Trident and that the "others" (as opposed to Others) were supposed to stay to take care of Lyanna. When they heard of Rhaegar's death, some may have fled. I think it likely that Rhaegar originally brought as few people as possible with them--just enough to cook and, hopefully, someone who knew something about assisting in childbirth.

I think it would be safer for them to stay hidden in one place. The more they moved around, the greater the chances that they would be seen.

But the big flaw in my argument is that, IIRC, Tower of Joy was Rhaegar's favorite place. Seems like anyone who knew him well would go straight there to look for him.

[Jon Targaryen]

Oh, all right.

I don't want to post it here yet as I may modify the theory based off the conclusions we come to in the re-read. I will point out where it is in the R+L=J sticky though.

Here is where the theory is laid out. The ensuing discussion is scattered throughout the next few pages. I started a thread for it originally but decided to merge it with R+L=J.

[Prince of the North]

I'm interested as well.

I've always thought that Lyanna and Rhaegar were at the ToJ up until Rhaegar left to go to the Trident and that the "others" (as opposed to Others) were supposed to stay to take care of Lyanna. When they heard of Rhaegar's death, some may have fled. I think it likely that Rhaegar originally brought as few people as possible with them--just enough to cook and, hopefully, someone who knew something about assisting in childbirth.

I think it would be safer for them to stay hidden in one place. The more they moved around, the greater the chances that they would be seen.

But the big flaw in my argument is that, IIRC, Tower of Joy was Rhaegar's favorite place. Seems like anyone who knew him well would go straight there to look for him.

Yes, I don't believe Rhaegar and Lyanna would have been able to move around a lot but I'm also not sure they were at the ToJ the whole time. That's because even for a relatively small number of people to hide out for a year that would still take a lot of food and other supplies. So, did Rhaegar go there with a small caravan in the first place, was the place already well-stocked due to his previously visiting there periodically, or were people coming and going to bring them supplies, news, etc.? It seems to me that the ToJ was a pretty primitive place without a lot of amenities so I don't believe it was already well-stocked.

All in all, I'm beginning to believe that the ToJ was one of the worst kept secrets around and that there had to be traffic and communication taking place. This is mainly due to Ned somehow finding the place and that I think those at the ToJ would have needed periodic re-supplying. Of course, this is just theory once again in the absence of any kind of proof

[Prince of the North]

Oh, all right.

I don't want to post it here yet as I may modify the theory based off the conclusions we come to in the re-read. I will point out where it is in the R+L=J sticky though.

Here is where the theory is laid out. The ensuing discussion is scattered throughout the next few pages. I started a thread for it originally but decided to merge it with R+L=J.

Oh, yes! I remember it now - the theory that Ned and company fought the KG after seeing Lyanna. I think this is an interesting idea. The only thing I still have trouble with, though, is where was the baby at this time? You see, I still have trouble believing there was much reason to go to Starfall at all if Ned got the baby at the ToJ.

That is, if Ned needed to go to Starfall to secure a wetnurse for the baby then how did the baby survive the trip from the ToJ to Starfall? Conversely, if there was a wetnurse already available at the ToJ (pretty convenient, no?) then why go to Starfall at all? As I've said, I don't believe returning even the legendary sword Dawn to the Daynes was important enough for this. Myriad alternate provisions could easily have been made to return the sword without Ned having to do it with a baby under his arm.

[Jon Targaryen]

Why don't we discuss this in the R+L=J thread? I prefer to discuss it there until we get to the end of the re-read.

[snake]

Week 6

Last of all, he came to the tomb where father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. AGOT 419 Ned thoughts

Why the eyes weeping blood? Lyanna's promise or promises really seem to be bothering Ned.

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him. AGOT 420 Ned thoughts

Very strange. The whole scene must have reminded Ned of his time at the ToJ. No doubt he talked to Lyanna before he fought the Kingsguard.

The lies we tell for love, he thought. AGOT 422 Ned thoughts

In this instance I think Ned doesn't want to hurt Robert as he lay dying. Could it be that the same thing happened with his sister?

"Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

AGOT 422 Robert and Ned

Ned making a promise to Robert that he has no intention of keeping. Perhaps similar to what happened with his sister.

The scene where Jon attacks Ser Alliser after Ned's capture.

AGOT 471

Means nothing.

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. AGOT 525 Ned thoughts

Broken promises? So there's more than one that he broke. Would such a thing give a man like Ned bad dreams? Plus there are promises he kept that cost him something. Howmany frickin promises did he make to the girl?

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles had died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

All smiles died it seems and I would venture that Lyanna was among the all since Ned was probably seated with her. No doubt Rhaegar learned that she liked winter roses and felt that this gesture would somehow please her.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

The pretty roses hid something cruel and dangerous. Much like Rhaegar's gesture at the tourney.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

AGOT 526-527 Ned thoughts

Bed of blood would suggest childbirth but it's not certain. Once again we are told she loved winter roses. Reminds me of Sansa and her lemon cakes.

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If he could only see the boy again, sit and talk with him

AGOT 530 Ned thoughts

Shame for what he had done? Most likely. I would also venture the sorrow had to do with never telling Jon about his mother.

(Dany saves some Lamb women from slavery and rape.)

"You are your brother's sister, in truth."

"Viserys?" She did not understand.

"No," he answered. "Rhaegar."

AGOT 558 Dany and Jorah

Dany is assertive like Rhaeger. She has courage and gets what she wants. Still, such comparisons from a man who didn't know Rhaegar and probably never met him rings kind of hollow.

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

AGOT 613 Osha and Bran

The tale that of Lyanna's rape is rather well known and I somehow doubt Ned would let such tales circulate if they weren't true. He quickly ended the talk of Ashara Dayne so he could have done so with this as well unless he didn't want to.

"We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

...

"It was something to do about Jon, I think."

AGOT 611 Bran

Ned was sad that he never got to talk to Jon and explain things to him before he died. The kids somehow picked up on that. Must be their warging ability coming into play.

[Jon Targaryen]

In this instance I think Ned doesn't want to hurt Robert as he lay dying. Could it be that the same thing happened with his sister?

Could very well be true.

Ned making a promise to Robert that he has no intention of keeping. Perhaps similar to what happened with his sister.

Not really. Ned is just promising to eat the boar here.

Means nothing.

Not even that Jon has some "wolf blood?"

All smiles died it seems and I would venture that Lyanna was among the all since Ned was probably seated with her. No doubt Rhaegar learned that she liked winter roses and felt that this gesture would somehow please her.

How does that jive with your opinion of Rhaegar?

The pretty roses hid something cruel and dangerous. Much like Rhaegar's gesture at the tourney.

Ok, I think I see where you're going. But why would Rhaegar make any effort to please Lyanna if he is as you say? Why not just abduct her and rape her?

Bed of blood would suggest childbirth but it's not certain. Once again we are told she loved winter roses. Reminds me of Sansa and her lemon cakes.

Good spot on the childbirth thing, didn't notice that.

Shame for what he had done? Most likely. I would also venture the sorrow had to do with never telling Jon about his mother.

True. That can apply either way.

Dany is assertive like Rhaeger. She has courage and gets what she wants. Still, such comparisons from a man who didn't know Rhaegar and probably never met him rings kind of hollow

.

Very true about Jorah's opinion of Rhaegar. Barristan is a better source.

The tale that of Lyanna's rape is rather well known and I somehow doubt Ned would let such tales circulate if they weren't true. He quickly ended the talk of Ashara Dayne so he could have done so with this as well unless he didn't want to.

True about Ned and strange that he would allow the rape tale to spread if R+L as that would lead to the question of whether there was a baby.

Ned was sad that he never got to talk to Jon and explain things to him before he died. The kids somehow picked up on that. Must be their warging ability coming into play.

Interesting idea. What do you think the kids were warging?

[Markus]

Why the eyes weeping blood? Lyanna's promise or promises really seem to be bothering Ned.

Ned associates Lyanna with tears and blood in his dream. Is this all that wondrous? There are plenty of reasonable explanations. Tears for her sorrow for those she'd loved and who've been killed. Or tears for her regret and sorrow for the role she'd played in contributing to those deaths. Blood for her illness and/or impending death. Possibly for the childbirth she'd had. Or even for the potential consequences of this birth when her baby is a Targaryen.

Very strange. The whole scene must have reminded Ned of his time at the ToJ. No doubt he talked to Lyanna before he fought the Kingsguard.

I don't follow your reasoning. Ned sees three Kingsguards on his way to Robert and before he learns what has happened to Robert, and you take this as evidence that Ned talked to Lyanna before he fought the Kingsguards?

In this instance I think Ned doesn't want to hurt Robert as he lay dying. Could it be that the same thing happened with his sister?

It's possible that Ned lied to Lyanna for love of her, perhaps to take her fear away as she lay dying. On the other hand, he also thinks "Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them".

So I would suggest that it makes more sense to think Ned lied for love of Lyanna but not to her when he made his promises. When Ned lied to Robert and Cat and Jon and all the world about Jon's parentage in order to protect him it would make a lot of sense.

Ned making a promise to Robert that he has no intention of keeping. Perhaps similar to what happened with his sister.

The immediate context is, as Jon Targaryen says, Ned's promise to serve the boar at Robert's funeral feast. I don't see a reason to suspect he didn't plan to do as Robert wished here. The wider context includes Ned not revealing to Robert that Joff isn't his son because he didn't want to hurt him, yes, and substituting "Joffrey" with "my heir" in Robert's will.

What triggered Ned's memory of Lyanna here? The promise he'd to make to Robert? Robert making Ned the guardian of his children? Ned deceiving Robert about what he really wanted to do with regard to Joff? All of these?

Broken promises? So there's more than one that he broke. Would such a thing give a man like Ned bad dreams? Plus there are promises he kept that cost him something. Howmany frickin promises did he make to the girl?

Ned _dreams_ of broken promises and blood. GRRM has made clear that dreams are not always literal. If you consider the situation Ned was in I would hardly be surprised if he would have had a nightmare about what would have happened if he would have broken his promises to Lyanna, would either have revealed Jon as Rhaegar's son or allowed Targaryen loyalists to bring him up for example. One can imagine that either case would eventually have led to bloodshed.

If Ned was dreaming about promises he _actually_ broke then these don't have to be promises to Lyanna specifically He might have promised the Daynes not to keep Jon ignorant about who his parents were for example.

The pretty roses hid something cruel and dangerous. Much like Rhaegar's gesture at the tourney.

I don't associate the thorns of a rose with _cruelty_. There was hidden danger in the beauty of the roses, as there was in Rhaegar's gesture to compliment her and in all that followed even if it began sweet and beautiful for Lyanna (if she fell in love and was happy to be with Rhaegar).

Shame for what he had done? Most likely. I would also venture the sorrow had to do with never telling Jon about his mother.

It might be shame for never telling Jon who his birth parents were. Shame for allowing him to make the decision to join the NW and thereby giving up whatever rights and claims he might have had, robbing him of any opportunity to decide for himself what he should do about what had happened in Robert's Rebellion. Shame for not giving him the chance to become acquainted with the Targaryen side of his heritage, including his uncle and aunt.

Sorrow for Lyanna and her death. Sorrow for his father and his brother who died as a result of Lyanna loving Rhaegar, or if one wishes Rhaegar raping Lyanna, which led to Jon's existence. In fact, Jon's very existence is associated with a lot of sorrow, in a wider context. So maybe Ned felt sorrow for all those who died in Robert's Rebellion who may yet be alive if not for the events which led to Jon's birth. Maybe he also felt sorrow for Robert who loved Lyanna but was not loved in turn. Or for Cersei, who wasn't loved by Robert because of Lyanna, and so never could come to love Robert in her turn.

Dany is assertive like Rhaeger. She has courage and gets what she wants. Still, such comparisons from a man who didn't know Rhaegar and probably never met him rings kind of hollow.

I don't think that Jorah was merely stressing that Dany was assertive, courageous or that she gets what she wants. In the context she had just stopped a rape so I rather think that he was also or even primarily stressing that Dany and Rhaegar have similar views about rape and are willing to act on it.

The tale that of Lyanna's rape is rather well known and I somehow doubt Ned would let such tales circulate if they weren't true. He quickly ended the talk of Ashara Dayne so he could have done so with this as well unless he didn't want to.

Some guardsman claiming that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and Bran hearing it does not make a tale "well known" I would say, particular in the whole of Westeros. Such a claim is just as unproven as the opposite one that nearly nobody at all thinks it was rape. We simply don't know very well what most people think happened exactly between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

As we don't know if anybody ever made rape claims in Ned's hearing -- which doesn't seem the smartest thing to do for his guardsmen -- we can't say either what he would have done about it.

[bacchys]

But the big flaw in my argument is that, IIRC, Tower of Joy was Rhaegar's favorite place. Seems like anyone who knew him well would go straight there to look for him.

Prior to the events leading to Robert's Rebellion, Summerhall was Rhaegar's favourite place, IIRC.

Ned remembers that Rhaegar named it the "tower of joy" (it's not capitalized in my copy of AGOT). While it's quite reasonable to assume that the ToJ jumped to the front of Rhaegar's favourite places in earning that nickname, one could also reasonably conjecture that its location or Rhaegar's interest in it weren't common knowledge.

Eddard Stark obviously doesn't have access to Rhaegar between the Harrenhal tourney and the showdown at the ToJ, but he does know what Rhaegar thought of the place. This could suggest Eddard learns of it in his investigation to find Lyanna (someone at King's Landing knew of it) or Lyanna herself told him this when he found her. She doesn't say it in the dream sequence, but GRRM has said that dreams aren't always literal in direct reference to this dream.

[snake]

Not really. Ned is just promising to eat the boar here.

You're right of course. Perhaps Lyanna wanted him to have a big feast as well.

Not even that Jon has some "wolf blood?"

Nope. He got angry. We see that in lots of people throughout the story who have no connections to Starks or Targaryens.

How does that jive with your opinion of Rhaegar?

Ok, I think I see where you're going. But why would Rhaegar make any effort to please Lyanna if he is as you say? Why not just abduct her and rape her?

Because Rhaegar wasn't like Gregor Clegane. He only did what he did because he had no choice. The prophecy had to be fulfilled and I dare say he would not have wanted to resort to kidnapping and rape but felt there was no other way. I think there is a nice passage in the new ADwD preview chapter(the Jon one) that hints towards what I'm saying being a possibility.

Interesting idea. What do you think the kids were warging?

It seems that the Stark kids all have this connection. Especially when they're dreaming. Perhaps it led Bran and Rickon to pick up on their fathers feelings as he lay in the dungeon. I really don't know but it's strange they had the same dream about the same thing.