Ser Barristan's secrets

[Prince of the North]

Barristan Selmy has a good bit of truth for Dany, interesting to see how she reacts to it. Ultimately for Dany to succeed she needs to understand why Aerys failed. I think she needs to understand that Aerys and Rhaegar shredded the social contract and that regardless of how it ended, Stark, Baratheon and Arryn had every right and reason to rebel.

Fealty is a two way street, which I don't think many seem to understand.

QFT!

(Emphasis mine)

[bacchys]

I think Summerhall is the main event that Barristan can share with Dany that will shed light on much that happened afterwards. What happened at Summerhall made Rhaegar as he was. To the extent that the events of Summerhall are common knowledge, I think all that is commonly known is that Targaryens died and that it involved trying to raise dragons.

Jenny of Oldstones isn't an example of it being commonly known, I don't think. Her connection to Summerhall is something else. I think we are going to learn more about her in later books. That line to Arya was just to pregnant with implications to simply be a throwaway.

I really doubt Barristan knows Jon's parentage. I pin that on his decision to join Robert as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. By the time of the Rebellion, Barristan has spent years as a member of the Kingsguard. He watched firsthand as Aerys descended ever deeper into madness and cruelty. This obviously bothered him. We get a glimpse of his personal struggle with this when he tells Dany he was waiting to see if madness had taken her.

The only reason he's alive when we meet him is because he suffered such grievous wounds at the Trident that he couldn't continue to fight. He didn't just decide to switch sides. While recovering from his wounds, he sees Robert being magnanimous to those who had honourably fought against him. Robert looks and acts the part of the Good King, both just and merciful. Moreover, the Rebellion is in some ways a Dance of Dragons reprise considering the Targaryen blood in the Baratheon line. Robert does have a claim to the throne.

Against this valorous warrior and generous victor, Barristan has the mad Aerys and his offspring, the child Viserys. The Seven Kingdoms are torn apart by war. He can either bend the knee to Robert and help bring peace to the realm, or aid the child of a mad tyrant in continuing to tear apart the kingdom. Perhaps Viserys was already displaying some of the madness that eventually consumed him. I don't recall a timeline having ever been presented as to when Barristan agreed to be a part of Robert's Kingsguard, but I tend to think it didn't happen until after Rhaella is dead bearing Daenerys and Darry has fled Dragonstone with the two children.

It's a common theme in the tale: the struggle between duty and honour. The struggle between doing one's duty and doing what one believes to be right.

[Bronn Stone]

I think the most important piece of secret knowledge Barristan is holding back is of the marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Targaryen polygamy is referred to repeatedly, but in truth it hasn't played much of a role in the tale to date. It hasn't changed anything significant. 'Three heads of the dragon' is probably one reason, but I'm convinced it isn't the only one.

[bacchys]

I think the most important piece of secret knowledge Barristan is holding back is of the marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

I lean against Rhaegar and Lyanna being married. The main reason I don't think they were married is neither her father nor the King seem to have approved such a match, and I don't think it's apparent in the tale that Rhaegar had that authority. When Sansa marries Tyrion, it's the King (Joffrey) who decides the match acting in lieu of the head of the family (Eddard is dead and Robb a traitor). I don't think a young, noble woman can decide on her own to marry.

[aegor_storm]

i dont think rhaegar even cared about marriage he was just fulfilling the prophecy of a song of ice and fire. the world needed the prince who was promised and rhaegar knew that.

[Shewoman]

QUOTE (Shewoman @ Feb 13 2008, 18.15)

Drogo suggests that Barristan knows who Ned's bastard son is

I do not recall this.

rombencephalon, I was referring to the poster named Drogo who posted on this thread, not the character in Game of Thrones.

--------------------

You ever see that movie Star Wars?

People tell me I look like Han Solo.-Reed Rothchild,Boogie Nights

[bacchys]

i dont think rhaegar even cared about marriage he was just fulfilling the prophecy of a song of ice and fire. the world needed the prince who was promised and rhaegar knew that.

Be careful who you say that around. Some folks become unhinged at those words.

[Poobah]

I don't believe Barristan knew about any R+L. I think his main function will be to tell Danny what a monster Aerys was.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

I do not recall this.

This is a common problem that occurs when board memebers take the names of characters. The "Drogo" being spoken of here is the board member, not the character in the story.

[aegor_storm]

Be careful who you say that around. Some folks become unhinged at those words.

sorry I said "think" to make it less statementish but if i unhinged anyone sorry again.

[Mezeh]

I don't believe Barristan knew about any R+L. I think his main function will be to tell Danny what a monster Aerys was.

Barristan mentioned Rhaegar when they spoke about secrets. Or rather Dany mentioned him and Selmy confirmed. He must know something but the question is how much he knows.

[JoannaL]

I dont think that Barristan knew about a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna (if any) and about Jon (if R+L=J). Because if he knew, would he still have knelt to Robert? I doubt it. He loved and admired Rhaegar very much, and if there was a child of him IMO he would have felt that it was his duty to protect it. (He betrayed Viserys but he thought him a little mad...)

Now that makes you wonder why , if R+L= J is true, Barristan didnt know. He seemed to be very close to Rhaeger, he was there at his death, and obviously some other KG member knew....

[Mezeh]

Barristan didn’t listed himself among those who were close to Rhaegar so if we would look for witness of Rhaegar/Lyanna supposed marriage we have to look among Rhaegar’s surviving friend. So far we know only one who possibly not dead – Jon Connington. Yet Selmy could have known something or guessed something – we know that he kept his eyes and ears open.

And even if he new or suspected something about the marriage he would still knelt to Robert if he didn’t know about that supposed marriage offspring. It seems that Lyanna never was in the vicinity of KG after her abdication so Selmy probably wasn’t aware about her pregnancy. Yet if he would learn about that the consequences may be very interesting. I’m very excited to see Selmy meet with Connington in ADWD.

[Ender]

One of Dany's few (only?) "flaws" is her blind adherence to the notion that the Iron Throne is hers by right. In that sense she is like Stannis for the moment, and his difficulties in making good on his claim (in terms of Westeros's perception of him) are well-noted in the Davos chapters. In a sense the lesson is that you earn the loyalty of your people and the right to rule by honoring the ruler-vassal contract which includes offering your protection, protecting certain civil and property rights and social customs, etc., in exchange for fealty.

Since Dany is being made out to be the hero of the story, she will eventually be "cleansed" of the notion that the Iron Throne is hers because she is the last Targaryen. That IMO will be Ser Barristan's role, revealing the truths behind Robert's Rebellion that Dany has as yet not wished to hear. When Dany is crowned it will not be because she deserved it by right, but because she was the only one who defended and united the realm broken apart by the squables and ambitions of the nobility. That is not to say that I think she will come to play the stereotypical "reluctant hero," but that when she finally lands in Westeros her head will be filled not with the notion that she has come to claim what is hers, but that she is there because the realm needs her.

[Prince of the North]

Ender,

I like your theory above!

Also, whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna married has been discussed quite a bit here. I think they did get married and here's, basically, why: I think it would have been extremely impractical for Rhaegar not to have married Lyanna.

You see, I think people vastly underestimate/miscontstrue what Rhaegar was ultimately motivated by with regard to the whole Lyanna affair. I believe that the most important thing was fulfilling the prophecy and getting the "third head of the dragon". Otherwise, none of it was necessary at all. Now, I'm not saying there couldn't have been feelings/love between them - I think there were. I'm just saying that fulfilling the prophecy was the most important thing!

To that end, getting the third head of the dragon, it just doesn't make sense to me that Rhaegar would have the first two dragon heads be "legitimate" and the third head be a bastard. Why allow that inequality and potential for conflict to exist among them when it could so easily be avoided? After all, Rhaegar, like everyone else, would be quite aware of the danger and complications that bastards can pose. No, I think the practical thing would be to have all three heads of the dragon be equals.

Furthermore, there's the thought that, in order for the Three Heads of the Dragon to fight their battle against the Others (which we all think they will), they would be much better situated if they were royalty. I mean, who is more likely to be followed - royalty or bastards? Of course, this is assuming that the Three Heads of the Dragon/PtwP would not be expected to defeat the threat of the Others all alone but will be leaders in the fight (which I think is most likely).

Another thing is Ned's thinking that Rhaegar likely didn't frequent whores. Can we surmise that because Rhaegar was not the type to frequent whores that he also would not want to make a "whore" of Lyanna so he would marry her? I don't know, maybe?

I guess I sort of look at this in terms of motive, means, and opportunity. In other words, did Rhaegar have the motive, means, and opportunity to marry Lyanna? I think the answer to all three is yes. What I think his motive would have been is explained above. As for the means? Rhaegar was the crown prince. He could definitley afford to pay if needed and who could/would refuse him if he requested them to marry him and Lyanna? I'm pretty sure he had the means. And as far as opportunity goes? Well, he and Lyanna were "missing" for almost a year. If they were at the ToJ for the entire time they could have easily had someone come there to marry them. If they were not at the ToJ the entire time but were travelling or hiding somewhere else then they could have easily gotten someone to marry them. I think they had ample opportunity to be married.

[Jon Targaryen]

Also, whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna married has been discussed quite a bit here. I think they did get married and here's, basically, why: I think it would have been extremely impractical for Rhaegar not to have married Lyanna.

*snip*

Also, the only three remaining KG loyal to the Targaryens all being at the tower of joy and not one with Viserys. Hard to explain if Jon is a bastard.

[Prince of the North]

Also, the only three remaining KG loyal to the Targaryens all being at the tower of joy and not one with Viserys. Hard to explain if Jon is a bastard.

QFT!

[Weave]

I think that when Barristan recovered from his wounds and realized that That Ned had taken in Jon to be his bastard that he would have still knelt to Robert. Considering all the circumstances he would have had little choice. There would have been no way that he would have gone over to protect Jon because in doing so it would have endangered him greatly. If Robert had realized who Jon was he would have wanted to kill him immediately. This would have torn an already kingdom into even more pieces because Ned would not have let this happen. On top of that for Barristan to side with Jon, he would really be starting a rebellion of his own. Whether R+L were married or not, there weren't many people that believed that, and most certainly Tywin would have more than a few problems with that scenario. The best way for Barristan to protect Jon was to pretend he didn't know anything about him and let Ned take him to the north while Robert sent his killers across the sea.

[Mutethunder]

I'm just waiting for the tidbit that Aerys got randy when burning people:

"Oh yes, you were probably conceived after Aerys burned a man, for no particular good reason except for being a poor Hand. He also had nine inch nails because he didn't want any blades near him, but I'm sure he loved them while mauling your mother during sexual acts".

[Tian of House Zi]

I am a lurker, and part-time at that. If this has been noted, my apologies.

I believe that Barristan Selmy went to the Wall to check out Jon Snow first, before heading overseas to meet with Dany. I think he knows about R+L=J.

Jon is in the training yard, although not training. I believe he was still injured after the Wildlings fight (I do not have the books at hand, and it has been some time since I have reread them).

Anyhow, Jon notices a White Bearded man (maybe grey) leaning on a staff. It is one line among a few detailing new recruits. The old man described there doesn't show up again at the Wall.

When next we see Selmy he is bearded and fighting with a quarterstaff. Maybe one of the secrets he tells Dany is she has a half-brother, a smart, strong half-brother who is a leader of men, capable commander, etc.