Ser Barristan's secrets

[Night Ninja]

Actually Aerys trusted to his KG. There is enough proof of that. Jaime recalled that he become so paranoid that allowed no swords in his presence but of KG. Jaime also recalled that Rhaegar said to him that Aerys feared Tywin and felt safe only with Jaime around him. So Aerys trusted Jaime too…

Actually, I think Aerys kept Jaime around as a hostage. He only felt safe when Jaime was around because he was Lord Tywin's son, and Tywin would never move openly against Aerys unless he was sure that Jaime would be safe.

[Taemlyn Blackfyre]

Kingsguards give the oath to protect the king first of all and then his family. That is their duty, that's why they are supposed to go to Dragon Stone after Aerys' death, if Lyanna's child is a bastard and the bastard can not be the prince if not legitimized, that means the newborn babe should not be the Prince that was promised, otherwise, the prophecy would name the Bastard who was promised as a savor of the realm

This is a theory that makes leaping assumptions. First of all, the Queen fled Aerys to Dragonstone after he violently raped her, as we see in Jaime's POV. It is fair to assume Aerys prevented the KG from accompanying her, which is why Willem Darry does in their stead. Secondly, it has been established that Rhaegar had command over many of the KG, excepting Jaime and perhaps Lewyn (who was Elia's guardian). Thirdly, the KG3 were at the TOJ on Rhaegar's direct orders (presumably) and I find it extremely unlikely that they would take orders from Aerys at this point (again from Jaime's POV, where Rhaegar implies that the King's insanity was a problem that needed to be reined in).

I wonder at Barry and Rhaegar's relationship. Barry was KG from the time of Rhaegar's birth. Is it too much of a stretch to consider Barry may have had some role in rescuing Aerys, Rhaella and baby Rhaegar from the calamity at Summerhall? Or perhaps they bonded when Rhaegar suddenly decided he wanted to be a warrior? Regardless, the KG were, to a man, looking to Rhaegar for their future King.

Why else would they let Aerys be capture by the Darklings?

[the silent speaker]

people would consider it perfectly normal that a Targaryen king has two wives. At least they were not his sisters to boot.

Just because there was a precedent from 250 years ago doesn't mean people would consider it "perfectly normal." They'd be more likely to accept incest; at least we know that that was continuous practice.

Also? A marriage of Rhaegar to Lyanna binds no alliance unless people know about it.

[Samble]

Even though this is a page and a half back, but, since Rhaegar was the heir, isn't his son next in succession, and not Viserys? because that would make perfect sense for the KG to be there, as baby Jon (supposedly) would now be heir to the Iron Throne, as long as he wasn't actually a bastard. Knowledge of the marriage nonwithstanding, if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna, their child is the heir, public knowledge be damned.

Only really thought of the succession thing after remembering one of the last Jaime chapters, and the Frey succession.

[Mezeh]

Just because there was a precedent from 250 years ago doesn't mean people would consider it "perfectly normal." They'd be more likely to accept incest; at least we know that that was continuous practice.

Also? A marriage of Rhaegar to Lyanna binds no alliance unless people know about it.

There was more then just one precedent:

"Targaryen Polygamy

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be)."

Targaryens were not like ordinary people so Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage was possible. There also was a clear reason to keep it in secret until the end of war.

[the silent speaker]

There was more then just one precedent:

Okay, two precedents. Both from 250 years back. And one of them was from Maegor the Cruel of reverent memory.

And I repeat: if you keep the marriage secret, there is no alliance possibility.

[bacchys]

Okay, two precedents. Both from 250 years back. And one of them was from Maegor the Cruel of reverent memory.

And I repeat: if you keep the marriage secret, there is no alliance possibility.

True, if the marriage is secret there's no hope for an alliance. That possibility is even more precluded by the appearance of abduction, though it's possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't consider that reaction.

If they were married, it was in secret. We've nothing to indicate anyone knew they were married. Perhaps those who did know have kept it secret still to prevent Robert's anger from coming down on their heads. Such hope for an alliance as Rhaegar might have had was something that would have to wait until he felt able to come out openly about Lyanna. For whatever reason, he didn't think he could openly declare the status of their relationship.

[Shewoman]

The "Drogo" referred to is a poster on this board who has taken Khal Drogo's name.

[Blackstone]

It seems to me that there are only a few people left alive that know -- or have enough access and enough brains -- to put together the R+L = J story.

The list of people who absolutely know beyond a shadow of a doubt is very short:

Howland Reed

The list of people who -- if properly motivated -- could figure it out is somewhat longer:

Barristan Selmy

Varys

Jaime Lannister

Tywin Lannister (before he reached room temperature)

Doran Martell

Tyrion Lannister

Ordinarily, one would think that Jon himself was the clue, but Ned Stark has actually two cover stories here. First, he has the Wylla cover story, which serves well enough for the only person it really matters too -- King Robert. Second, he has the Ashara Dayne story as well.

Therefore, the real clue to anyone that might have cared was the extrodinary posting of 3 KG with Lyanna, far from the action. Had Dayne alone been present on the Trident, the story might have been much different. What was so important about Lyanna, many of the connected must have wondered. Simply being the Helen of Troy of Westeros might merit a single KG posting, but not three.

[bacchys]

Therefore, the real clue to anyone that might have cared was the extrodinary posting of 3 KG with Lyanna, far from the action. Had Dayne alone been present on the Trident, the story might have been much different. What was so important about Lyanna, many of the connected must have wondered. Simply being the Helen of Troy of Westeros might merit a single KG posting, but not three.

There's an off-and-on discussion of this on the R+L=J sticky in general.

We don't know that they were posted. We only know that they were there when Eddard arrived with his six companions. Their movements during the time of Robert's Rebellion have yet to be revealed.

[Robb19]

I believe that Barristan Selmy went to the Wall to check out Jon Snow first, before heading overseas to meet with Dany. I think he knows about R+L=J.

Jon is in the training yard, although not training. I believe he was still injured after the Wildlings fight (I do not have the books at hand, and it has been some time since I have reread them).

Anyhow, Jon notices a White Bearded man (maybe grey) leaning on a staff. It is one line among a few detailing new recruits. The old man described there doesn't show up again at the Wall.

Very interesting. I'll have to look for that.

When next we see Selmy he is bearded and fighting with a quarterstaff. Maybe one of the secrets he tells Dany is she has a half-brother, a smart, strong half-brother who is a leader of men, capable commander, etc.

That, however, seems unlikely. Could he have surmised all of that from seeing Jon trained? Jon wasn't anything back then, just some green lordling's bastard with the blood of kings (if theories hold true).

[Gold Storm]

Very interesting. I'll have to look for that.

That, however, seems unlikely. Could he have surmised all of that from seeing Jon trained? Jon wasn't anything back then, just some green lordling's bastard with the blood of kings (if theories hold true).

He could have someone at the Wall sent him messages about Jon is up to, so he will know what is going on. That could be why he went to the Wall.

[Ealasaid]

Back to Barristan.

Like Howland Reed and Petyr, they Know Things. Which is why GRRM doesn't write them as POVs.

And why he enticingly leads us up to something we really want to know and the listener doesn't pick up. As in Meera telling Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal and asking him if he hasn't heard the story before. Bran shows no more interest, but Meera could tell him more about Lyanna.

Selmy's served two kings. He knows lots of secets. He wrote in the White Book, and probably edited what he wrote to keep it white.

But he's the one who has to tell Dany the secrets to make her a good ruler. So there's more than Summerhall (yes, I want to know), and TOJ (yes, I want to know). One thing I think we can count on is that Barristan will tell the truth, however awful, but the truth is a tricky thing. Does Dany want to hear that Ned Stark tried to convince Robert to call off the hurt for her? How would she react if she were told that she might have a blood rival for the throne?

Can't wait for the next book. GRRM will probably kill of Selmy in the Prologue.

[Venustas]

has anyone wondered if Jon is to find out that he is a Targ, wouldn't he like denied it. He was raised like a Stark afterall...

[The Brandon Stark]

has anyone wondered if Jon is to find out that he is a Targ, wouldn't he like denied it. He was raised like a Stark afterall...

--------------------

He was raised a Snow, not a Stark. Hard to believe if the truth was laid out for him, that he wouldn't accept his Targness.

[oldnan]

--------------------

He was raised a Snow, not a Stark. Hard to believe if the truth was laid out for him, that he wouldn't accept his Targness.

I've got mixed feelings on that. Sure if Lyanna went along with Rhaegar willingly he might consent to it, but the Targs also caused a lot of pain to the Starks. He may be better off remaining a Snow.

[the silent speaker]

Ned Stark is his father whoever squirted the semen. I don't see him shrugging off his Snowness just because someone tells him a cock-and-bull story about Rhaegar. Revising his ancestry doesn't change who he is.

[Fournaridis]

I am a lurker, and part-time at that. If this has been noted, my apologies.

I believe that Barristan Selmy went to the Wall to check out Jon Snow first, before heading overseas to meet with Dany. I think he knows about R+L=J.

Jon is in the training yard, although not training. I believe he was still injured after the Wildlings fight (I do not have the books at hand, and it has been some time since I have reread them).

Anyhow, Jon notices a White Bearded man (maybe grey) leaning on a staff. It is one line among a few detailing new recruits. The old man described there doesn't show up again at the Wall.

When next we see Selmy he is bearded and fighting with a quarterstaff. Maybe one of the secrets he tells Dany is she has a half-brother, a smart, strong half-brother who is a leader of men, capable commander, etc.

This is something I did not catch before - and, something I find very, very interesting. Do you, or anyone else for that matter - have any more information about this particular passage?

[yarasha]

This is something I did not catch before - and, something I find very, very interesting. Do you, or anyone else for that matter - have any more information about this particular passage?

wow.