Is Cersei pregnant?

[Gold Storm]

In a lot of stories, prophecy is mostly misinterpreted. I think that Cersei mistook hers and at the end will complain that the prophecy was wrong.

[Eelia]

Maybe she's pregnant, but doesn't realize it because the prophecy made her believe she'll only have three children. And that's why she doesn't take care of herself (drinks a lot) which will result in misscarriage or stilllbirth of her child, and thus the prophecy will be fulfilled ... It's the way these things work.

Or maybe not, ah, who knows?

[Antonius Pius]

I seriously doubt Jaime will fly into a rage if confronted with Cersei's adultery. He no longer has any doubts about her. He has realised how f*cked up she really is. He has started to put his entire relationship with her into perspective. He is ashamed of the things he has done, or would have done (like killing Arya after she thumped Joff). I doubt he even still loves her. If he does kill her (and I think it's a definite possibility), I think he'll kill her in cold blood, after coming to realise how cruel and callous she really is. She's been racking up monstrosities to rival Aerys. If Jaime realises how far gone she is, I think he may step up.

I like the dead chick-bit, but for now I'm still going with the wonderful irony of her "doing a Robert Baratheon", as it was put by a previous poster.

[Sarella]

Re: The dead chick.

Alternative for Sarella: Cersei is symbolically devouring her young.

Examples: Joffrey, her treatment of Tommen and denying him individuality or growth. Perhaps Balon Swann trying to "recover" Myrcella results in her death.

Very nice! I don't know what to think anymore.

[Finn]

If he does kill her (and I think it's a definite possibility), I think he'll kill her in cold blood, after coming to realise how cruel and callous she really is. She's been racking up monstrosities to rival Aerys. If Jaime realises how far gone she is, I think he may step up.

I think this is a strong possibility. I also wouldn't rule out some kind of mercy killing. I think GRRM is pointing a fan in Cersei's direction and loading the shite as we speak. I have a feeling Jaime might be there at the end to put out the lights.

[Kes]

What if Cersei is killed before she reaches the end of her pregnancy? She will still have only had three children, her brother (either one, although I'm thinking it will be Jaime when he sees her resemblance to Aerys and Robert) will still be the one to kill her, and it still leaves room for her pregancy to become an issue, especially considering her current situation.

The the thing is; if she's pregnant, I'm not sure for how long, so the timeline might not allow for this.

[Fatuous]

I hate to say this but this is a really dumb idea. Need I remind anyone of what happened when Jaime finally made it back to King's Landing? The blood and bloody...

And after Jaime, it was Merryweather. Mrs. Good God, what an idea. She's a daddy...

However, then came a Kettleblack {Well, you know what I mean}. That is possible. However, and I do mean however, in order for it to mean anything, it would have to come as a surprise and the High Septon already knows about it.

[Finn]

I hate to say this but this is a really dumb idea. Need I remind anyone of what happened when Jaime finally made it back to King's Landing? The blood and bloody...

And after Jaime, it was Merryweather. Mrs. Good God, what an idea. She's a daddy...

However, then came a Kettleblack {Well, you know what I mean}. That is possible. However, and I do mean however, in order for it to mean anything, it would have to come as a surprise and the High Septon already knows about it.

Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

No one is proposing that Jaime is the father. In fact, a lot of the speculation in this thread has to with do the intriguing fact that *if* Cersei is pregnant, Martin has made it impossible for Jaime to be the father.

It would obviously come as a surprise to Cersei since we've had her POV and the thought has never entered her head.

I don't know what you're talking about vis-a-vis the septon.

To be honest, one of the reasons I like the pregnancy theory is that the alternative seems a bit lame.

Martin has Cersei constantly noting that her clothes are getting too tight because she's getting fat like Robert? Meh.

[sarcasm] Get it!? Robert was a fat slob - Cersei hated Robert because he was a fat slob - and now she's a fat slob! [/sarcasm]

Certainly possible, but, to my mind, not very interesting . . .

[Datepalm]

Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

No one is proposing that Jaime is the father. In fact, a lot of the speculation in this thread has to with do the intriguing fact that *if* Cersei is pregnant, Martin has made it impossible for Jaime to be the father.

It would obviously come as a surprise to Cersei since we've had her POV and the thought has never entered her head.

I don't know what you're talking about vis-a-vis the septon.

To be honest, one of the reasons I like the pregnancy theory is that the alternative seems a bit lame.

Martin has Cersei constantly noting that her clothes are getting too tight because she's getting fat like Robert? Meh.

[sarcasm] Get it!? Robert was a fat slob - Cersei hated Robert because he was a fat slob - and now she's a fat slob! [/sarcasm]

Certainly possible, but, to my mind, not very interesting . . .

I haven;t made up my mind one way or another, but Martin has introduced us to a bit of family precedence for the "just getting fat" option in the form of Aunt Genna...

[Fatuous]

Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

That the last time Cersei was with Jaime, she was having her period so yeah, I'm saying Jaime is not an option and that she wasn't pregnant then. We also know from Cersei's POVs that she was teasing the Kettleblacks along up until Os-"which ever one finally said 'enough is enough'".

So Cersei's bedmate after her last period and while she was getting heavy but before Ser Os-"I am Legion":

Mrs. Merryweather.

Unlease it's a freaky superfast developing baby that is also "counterproductively showing" then Cersei is not pregnant, just fat in most of Feast.

However, she may be pregnant now but it doesn't mean anything because Cersei is being held under the "queen was caught in hanky panky" clause. I would say it's already rumored/known what happened between her and Ser Os"Wonderful Wizard of" and she or Qyburn may have even mentioned Ser Os"sie Osbourne" in their missive to Jaime.

Ok, I've finally looked it up and it was Ser Osney. But besides the Os- Kettleblack part, I really never made much of a distinction between them.

[Finn]

I haven;t made up my mind one way or another, but Martin has introduced us to a bit of family precedence for the "just getting fat" option in the form of Aunt Genna...

Oh sure, as I said, it's possible; I just think it would be kind of lame.

Of course, I think Cersei's characterization throughout AFFC is kind of lame.

So . . . the "justlikefatRoberthahaha" camp is probably right.

.So Cersei's bedmate after her last period and while she was getting heavy but before Ser Os-"I am Legion":

Mrs. Merryweather.

Unlease it's a freaky superfast developing baby that is also "counterproductively showing" then Cersei is not pregnant, just fat in most of Feast.

If it is true that all the "clothes too tight" business starts *before* there is viable intercourse, then - point taken. I'll have to go back and have a look.

However, she may be pregnant now but it doesn't mean anything because Cersei is being held under the "queen was caught in hanky panky" clause. I would say it's already rumored/known what happened between her and Ser Os"Wonderful Wizard of" and she or Qyburn may have even mentioned Ser Os"sie Osbourne" in their missive to Jaime.

But it would matter to Jaime. And pregnancy is more convincing evidence than rumor, especially since Jaime knows that the child can't be his.

[Ender]

American hardcover:

p. 172

"To Jocelyn she said, 'Tighter. Cinch it tighter, you simpering little fool."

p.344

"Cersei took a deep breath, so Dorcas could lace her up more tightly."

p.356

"Whilst Jocelyn was making certain that all was in readiness for the supper, Dorcas helped the queen into her new gown...Myrish lace was costly, but it was necessary for a queen to look her best at all times, and her wretched washerwomen had shrunk several of her gowns so they no longer fit."

p. 480

"Tanea rolled onto her side, her olive skin shining in the candlelight. Her breasts were larger than the queen's and tipped with huge nipples, black as horn. She is younger than I am. Her breasts have not begun to sag."

p.586

Cersei gets teh luvin on with Ser Osney. "'We waited long enough.' He thrust his finger inside the bodice of her gown and yanked..."

The next Cersei chapter is the one she is taken captive.

I probably missed a few passages, if anyone wants to contribute them.

Cersei may be pregnant, but I'm going to go ahead and say that evidence suggests she is also getting a bit chubby from overindulging in food and/or drink.

[Finn]

American hardcover:

p.344

"Cersei took a deep breath, so Dorcas could lace her up more tightly."

p.356

"Whilst Jocelyn was making certain that all was in readiness for the supper, Dorcas helped the queen into her new gown...Myrish lace was costly, but it was necessary for a queen to look her best at all times, and her wretched washerwomen had shrunk several of her gowns so they no longer fit."

p.586

Cersei gets teh luvin on with Ser Osney. "'We waited long enough.' He thrust his finger inside the bodice of her gown and yanked..."

Nice work. :bow:

I concede . . .

. . . that we've established that Osney Kettleblack is not the father

Seriously, I'll have to go back and have a look to see if there are other possible dads.

If not, then she's just fat. As Freud said, sometime cellulite is just cellulite.

[Ender]

I concede . . .

. . . that we've established that Osney Kettleblack is not the father

Well, I wouldn't discount Cersei being pregnant by Osney from that encounter because I rather like the 'dead chick in the egg' foreshadowing. In principle I think the theory is pretty poetic, but her growing big is clearly not the result of that particular episode with Ser Osney.

------

For suggestions of other encounters...

AFfC American hardcover p. 184

"Jaime hesitated. 'You should not stay alone.

"'I will not be alone. Ser Osmund can remain with me and keep me safe. Your Sworn Brother.'

"'If it please Your Grace,' said Kettleblack.

"'It does.' Cersei slid her arm through his, and side by side they watched the fire rage."

That's when she's burning down the Tower of the Hand. If the Aerys analogy holds, it's conceivable she sleeps with Osmund afterward, since according to a Jaime chapter Aerys was in the habit of raping his wife after he "gave someone to the fire." (can't find the specific passage, but it's there somewhere)

-----

Anyway, regarding the Osney encounter, I have no idea how moon tea or tansy tea work, but it would be interesting if Cersei was unable to take it because she was imprisoned shortly after her escapades. Her belly growing big while in her cell would condemn her. I wouldn't be surprised if she somehow tried to abort it and things got really...messy.

[Gen]

You know, she has slept with Osney more than once.

She slept with him on page 586, When he rips her dress and says,""We've waited long enough."

And on page 251, there is mention that they have slept together before. Whether it was in a ASoS or AFfC, I don't know.

"I want you."

"You've had me."

"Only once."

"One good night for one good deed. You did me a valiant service, and you had your reward."

Personally, I think it's entirely possible that she slept with Lancel, Osmund, Jaime, Osney, and Aurane Waters, and Lady Merryweather between the ending of ASoS and AFfC.

Now, if she was pregnant, I don't think Lancel, Osmund, Jaime, or Aurane could be the fathers. I think if anyone was the father, I think Osney would be it. He's got the closest contact to Cersei. And the highest chance of anyone of having had sex with her after we know she's had her period.

Then again, who knows? Cersei can be just getting fat. After all, Martin did show every single time any other female character has had their monthly cycles, yet we assumed that they were having them. And don't you think that tongues would already be wagging amongst the castle servants if there something like that happening?

[Ender]

You know, she has slept with Osney more than once.

True. His comment appears on p. 251 of the American hardcover. Cersei comments "'One good night for one good knight. You did me valiant service, and you had your reward."

Unless I missed an earlier reference the best candidate for this seems to be killing the High Septon, which Osney confeses to at the end of AFfC: "'That one there. She's the queen I fucked, the one sent me to kill the old High Septon.'" Lancel tells Cersei about speaking with the High Septon on p. 105 "What has the mewling fool told the High Septon?" she thinks. His death is told on p. 242 in the council discussion "'Qyburn smiled at Pycelle. 'His passing should not have surprised us. No man can ask for more than to die peacefully in his sleep, full of years.'"

That would indeed seem to put Osney into play, it could even work with the "To Jocelyn she said, 'Tighter. Cinch it tighter, you simpering little fool" on p. 172. though it might be too early for signs to be showing. Incidentally that is the same chapter as the egg incident.

There's a lot of mention of her drinking wine in the book, including a few passages that mention her drinking several cups in succession over a short period of time. Why can't she be putting on weight as a reflection of Robert AND be pregnant also? What objection do people take with it?

I'll mention that Tyrion names Osmund Kettleblack to Jaime at the end of ASoS. Unless I'm mistaken, that info comes from Varys earlier in ASoS, even before Jaime arrives in KL. No telling if Varys was telling Tyrion the truth or throwing that out there for some other purpose.

[Fatuous]

1 As to Osmund Kettleblack, Cersei stated at some point that the Whitecloak was starting to have an effect on his mind. Whatever gave her that idea?

2 Cersei was in control enough to make sure Lancel never actually finished inside her. She should be able to have enough control over Osney {and Osmund to be sure} to have the same effect at their first tryst. But she obviously lost control at the second one.

3 Cersei doesn't use sex for pleasure but only for power {with Jaime and Lancel, that's more a case of narcissism}. Osney is the only candidate in book 4.

[shevchenko65]

2 Cersei was in control enough to make sure Lancel never actually finished inside her. She should be able to have enough control over Osney {and Osmund to be sure} to have the same effect at their first tryst. But she obviously lost control at the second one.

He doesn't have to 'finish' inside of her for her to get pregnant.

[sholtzma]

I wonder if the dead chick in the egg could reflect a timepoint in ADWD - we must do an analysis later after ADWD comes out!

[Zoë Sumra]

I'll mention that Tyrion names Osmund Kettleblack to Jaime at the end of ASoS. Unless I'm mistaken, that info comes from Varys earlier in ASoS, even before Jaime arrives in KL. No telling if Varys was telling Tyrion the truth or throwing that out there for some other purpose.

There are theories currently being debated in other threads about Varys's foresight and careful sowing of dissent amongst the Lannisters and Tyrells. The biggest one I can think of is someone, Happy Ent I think, pointing out that in ACOK Varys spent the entire book facilitating the Tyrion-Shae relationship in order to, at some unspecified later point, get Tyrion to kill Tywin by planting Shae in Tywin's bed. The way it turned out, that wasn't why Tyrion killed Tywin - but it looks like a backup plan.

Basically...

Tyrion, at the point in the story when Varys tells him about Ser Osmund possibly shagging Cersei, is very close to his beloved brother Jaime and despises his sister Cersei. Wouldn't you guess that - had things been different - when beloved Jaime got back to King's Landing, Tyrion the dutiful younger brother would be likely to tell him that Cersei had been cheating on him? Thereby leading to a division between Cersei and Jaime?

Varys could have set up a Cersei/Jaime split with just that tiny titbit of gossip so far before the event that nobody would consider him to be responsible. Again, it didn't pan out quite that way, but it's at least plausible that he did.