Lost Season 4 Part Deux

[Kelli Fury]

I think I have this time travel thing sort of sorted out. For one, Desmond didn't physically travel back in time, he just slipped into the Desmond of the past, there were not 2 of him running around to possibly bump into each other. This is why later he remembers it the way we watched it, since that is how time passed for him. Faraday is a little trickier but since he is still the same one who caused Desmond to find him, he remembers only his original past, which is why he looks in the journal to see if Desmond found him. So I think that the time traveling will change things to a minor degree for those uninvolved in doing it. Perhaps that knowledge keeps your memory from resetting.

[All-for-Joffrey]

Actually, come to think of it, Daniel had to know who Desmond was on the island before this episode because he tells Desmond the correct scientific number thingy and tells him to tell his past self that he knows who Eloise is. The only way Daniel could know that this advice would be useful was if he already knew that it was Desmond that told him that. Then again, I guess that's circular logic because it means neither one exactly figured it out on their own but it's not exactly a paradox.

[Kelli Fury]

Actually, come to think of it, Daniel had to know who Desmond was on the island before this episode because he tells Desmond the correct scientific number thingy and tells him to tell his past self that he knows who Eloise is. The only way Daniel could know that this advice would be useful was if he already knew that it was Desmond that told him that. Then again, I guess that's circular logic because it means neither one exactly figured it out on their own but it's not exactly a paradox.

No, he had to look in his journal, and found that he was working on that and had not yet discovered the right setting. He then looked up what it was and fed Desmond the information. To know he was from the future, it had to be information he would know soon, but did not know already. He just looked it up in his journal, which does not indicate he remebered Desmond.

[HokieStone]

Maybe I'm impressing Slaughterhouse Five on Lost too much because Vonnegut's version of time travel is the only one that makes even the remotest bit of sense to me but the way I intereperted it that was that time was occurring all at once if that makes sense. In other words, thinking of time linerally isn't accurate because everything happens at once. That's the best explanation I could come up with and avoid paradoxes. As for Faraday I would assume that he either lied to Desmond or more likely forgot who Desmond was, he was having trouble memorizing those cards after all and memory loss is clearly a side effect of this condition.

Eh, it doesn't make sense to me. I looked at the Wikipedia entry on the book to try and get a better grasp of it, but to no avail. If everything happens at once...how does one age from infancy to old age? You have to experience events before to shape your personality and how you will react to things later in life. If everything happens at once, how does one learn new things? I dunno...this is probably a philosophical discussion that goes beyond the bounds of a Lost thread...suffice to say it makes no sense to me currently, and I still see the classic time paradoxes.

1) Because websites like Lostpedia have tracked the passing of every day on the show since the crash on 22 September 2004 and this episode and the last two all take place on 23/24 December 2004 by that count and,

2) Because Sayid notes the date and doesn't seem to think it's wrong.

And I suppose it could be a fake calendar put up to make the Losties think that no extra time has passed but this seems to be contradicted by the freighties not expecting Frank to bring anyone back from the Island, so why would they bother?

So nothing canonical then. I'm sure there are avid fans who have tried to account for every single day...but can they prove without any doubt that a specific number of days have passed? As for Sayid, I wouldn't expect the crash survivors to have accurately kept track of the calendar. Maybe they have, it's not like they've been there for years, but still. If the date was off by a significant amount, then yes I would expect Sayid to be confused...but if it's just a day or so off, I wouldn't expect him to notice that difference. If I'd been on an island for 3 months and I thought it was the 22nd or 23rd of December, but the calendar on the rescue boat says it's the 24th, I wouldn't bat an eye - I'd just assume I lost track of a day somewhere in there. Especially if I'd been tied up and tortured by some crazy French woman at some point, and spent a lot of my time fighting off the "Others". Of course someone on the island is sure to have a watch that should have the date on it.

I don't think there's a fake calendar or anything - I believe the date on the freighter is real. I'm just not sure that the island isn't a day or two off at this point.

[Kelli Fury]

Eh, it doesn't make sense to me. I looked at the Wikipedia entry on the book to try and get a better grasp of it, but to no avail. If everything happens at once...how does one age from infancy to old age? You have to experience events before to shape your personality and how you will react to things later in life. If everything happens at once, how does one learn new things? I dunno...this is probably a philosophical discussion that goes beyond the bounds of a Lost thread...suffice to say it makes no sense to me currently, and I still see the classic time paradoxes.

So nothing canonical then. I'm sure there are avid fans who have tried to account for every single day...but can they prove without any doubt that a specific number of days have passed? As for Sayid, I wouldn't expect the crash survivors to have accurately kept track of the calendar. Maybe they have, it's not like they've been there for years, but still. If the date was off by a significant amount, then yes I would expect Sayid to be confused...but if it's just a day or so off, I wouldn't expect him to notice that difference. If I'd been on an island for 3 months and I thought it was the 22nd or 23rd of December, but the calendar on the rescue boat says it's the 24th, I wouldn't bat an eye - I'd just assume I lost track of a day somewhere in there. Especially if I'd been tied up and tortured by some crazy French woman at some point, and spent a lot of my time fighting off the "Others". Of course someone on the island is sure to have a watch that should have the date on it.

I don't think there's a fake calendar or anything - I believe the date on the freighter is real. I'm just not sure that the island isn't a day or two off at this point.

The thing with SH5 was that you're still experiencing life in a linear way, but all moments are like places, and always exist, are always still going on somewhere.

[Mexal]

I loved the episode. This season is really doing it for me. I wish it was a full season

[Soul on Ice and Fire]

Why did Old Man Widmore leave the water running? I don't know why, but it seems strange.

[Werthead]

So nothing canonical then. I'm sure there are avid fans who have tried to account for every single day...but can they prove without any doubt that a specific number of days have passed? As for Sayid, I wouldn't expect the crash survivors to have accurately kept track of the calendar. Maybe they have, it's not like they've been there for years, but still. If the date was off by a significant amount, then yes I would expect Sayid to be confused...but if it's just a day or so off, I wouldn't expect him to notice that difference. If I'd been on an island for 3 months and I thought it was the 22nd or 23rd of December, but the calendar on the rescue boat says it's the 24th, I wouldn't bat an eye - I'd just assume I lost track of a day somewhere in there. Especially if I'd been tied up and tortured by some crazy French woman at some point, and spent a lot of my time fighting off the "Others". Of course someone on the island is sure to have a watch that should have the date on it.

Gregg Nations, the script coordinator who also keeps track of the official show timeline, has said that the Lostpedia timeline is pretty spot on. This was confirmed by episodes like A Tale of Two Cities and the Season 3 episodes with Naomi where they mentioned how many days they've been on the Island and this tied up with the timeline. In addition, they had clocks and calendars in the Swan Station (before it was destroyed), in the Flame Station (before it was destroyed) and also in the Barracks.

I don't think there's a fake calendar or anything - I believe the date on the freighter is real. I'm just not sure that the island isn't a day or two off at this point.

The differential effect is now established and I suppose it is possible that it could be much larger in Sayid and co's case. However, time remains running at a constant on and off the Island. That there is a differential effect has never been in question. However, this episode threw a vial of holy water over the corpse of the 'time running at different rates' thing after last week's episode staked it through the heart and the one before that decapitated it.

Something interesting that has been pointed out elsewhere: it's two days before the Tsunami. Whilst I doubt the writers would try to tie it into the show directly (OMG! It's a result of a DHARMA experiment or something!) it'll be interesting if they mention it. Presumably the Freighter would pick up messages about it, although the Island itself is not in danger (the Tsunami took place thousands upon thousands of miles away on the far side of Indonesia and in RL didn't have much effect on the Pacific).

[All-for-Joffrey]

Why did Old Man Widmore leave the water running? I don't know why, but it seems strange.

Same reason why he had the conversation with Desmond in the bathroom at the urinal. Desmond was the only person left in the bathroom so naturally he would have to turn off the sink. Essentially what old man Widmore is saying is that b/c of their class difference, Desmond is only fit to be his inferior/servant and reinforcing his earlier sentiments that he isn't fit to marry his daughter.

[Jaxom 1974]

I'm going to edit this if I need to after reading the rest of the last thread and this one, but...

Someone asked about why Faraday didn't "know" Desmond when he got to the island...I point out that Faraday was going backwards through his journal...he probably didn't know he knew Desmond...that's my take.

Why Desmond didn't know him? Because of something to do with the whole time travel in general...that's what I say...

Also a side note: Liked that when Desmond is back as his older self meeting Faraday at Oxford, it's Faraday with the beard and the long hair while Desmond has the shorter hair.

[Kat]

Something interesting that has been pointed out elsewhere: it's two days before the Tsunami. Whilst I doubt the writers would try to tie it into the show directly (OMG! It's a result of a DHARMA experiment or something!) it'll be interesting if they mention it. Presumably the Freighter would pick up messages about it, although the Island itself is not in danger (the Tsunami took place thousands upon thousands of miles away on the far side of Indonesia and in RL didn't have much effect on the Pacific).

Interesting. Also, isn't the fake plane wreckage in the Sunda trench? Should get buried by the earthquake.

[aeu]

Why Desmond didn't know him? Because of something to do with the whole time travel in general...that's what I say...

I loved that explanation.

It was a great episode. Very well done, touching without being too sappy, couldn't look away for second and went "Wow, that was good" at the end. And it doesn't make any sense whatsoever when you think about it. In other words, classic Lost.

Hokie,

I agree with everything you say and I have the cure for all your troubles: You should stop taking the "logic" of Lost so seriously. It will only diminish the pleasure you get from the show. There are a bunch of things that defy reason in this show, that's just the way it is.

Before worrying about stuff Desmond did in this episode, let's remember that this guy was in the center of an explosion that destroyed the hatch, shook the whole island and turned the sky purple, yet he survived without a scratch (and naked!). Not to mention he started having visions of the future, a nifty superhero type power, that seems to have disappeared magically sometime between the end of season 3 and start of season 4.

Certain aspects of this show is like X-Files. Or better yet, Twilight Zone. You just gotta roll with it.

[Ran]

Desmond's visions of the future were all tied to Charlie. I don't believe he's seen anything past Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter, which he believed was going to be triggered by Charlie's death. So with Charlie now dead, it may well be that that's the last premonition he'll have.

[Isis]

I don't worry myself too much about the time travel aspects.

I notice a divide between the quality of the episodes focusing on the better actors and those focusing on the average actors. Obviously Desmond goes into the former category. Nice to have a sort-of-happy ending once in a while too. Will we get to see what is in the log/journal/thing from the Black Rock?

[Fatuous]

Why Desmond didn't know him? Because of something to do with the whole time travel in general...that's what I say...

Correct! Faraday turned the ray on himself {or was caught up in some later accident} and "Desmond Hume is your Constant"! It's also why Faraday reacted to the discovery of Flight 815. Future memory doesn't work the same as regular memory {that is, they're making the rules up as they go along} but impressions/vague echoes remain. And why would the 1996 Desmond remember Faraday? Only the 2004 version talked to him...

Or was this just a shot in the dark on your part?

I agree that Desmond's all caught up now. No more "Future Echoes".

Desmond's visions were tied to resolving the paradox of what happened to him in 1996. They weren't tied to Charlie exactly but Charlie had to die because his death led to Desmond talking to Faraday in 1996/2004.

Remind me, did Desmond tell Charlie that he specifically saw Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter? Because I have a feeling that Desmond lied to Charlie about that part and Desmond only saw himself and Sayid board the copter.

[Scion of Valyria]

Desmond's visions of the future were all tied to Charlie. I don't believe he's seen anything past Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter, which he believed was going to be triggered by Charlie's death. So with Charlie now dead, it may well be that that's the last premonition he'll have.

What about that one vision he had about Locke's speech? I don't think Charlie was supposed to die during that.

As to the time difference between the island and the real world, I don't think there really is one. I just think there is a bib bubble around the island, and crossing through that is when the time distortion comes into play, you're just stuck there for a bit. Also, did the helicopter go off course, even in the slightest? The little dial thingy was going past thirty for a little bit, and Faraday said that'd be bad. I'm just wondering if thats what triggered Desmond's bout with time travel or if it was just him passing through the time warp bubble.

4-5 years for going AWOL? That seems a bit...disproportional. Is that really the case in the UK?

[Tsavong Lah]

People keep wondering why Faraday didn't remember meeting Desmond. If you recall from the previous episode (I believe) Charlotte was working with Dan with some cards and it seemed like he had memory problems. This is a really easy explanation for why he didn't remember Desmond.

[Zulofritter]

I notice a divide between the quality of the episodes focusing on the better actors and those focusing on the average actors. Obviously Desmond goes into the former category.

I'm wondering how you split up the actors then. I've liked all of them, except maybe Nikki & Paolo, and their episode was excellent.

[Fatuous]

People keep wondering why Faraday didn't remember meeting Desmond. If you recall from the previous episode (I believe) Charlotte was working with Dan with some cards and it seemed like he had memory problems. This is a really easy explanation for why he didn't remember Desmond.

Did he see the cards before hand or not? I thought it was a different kind of test, more like the ESP test from Ghostbusters.

[naz]

I don't remember the details, but couldn't he have known who Desmond was all along and just been pretending not to know him? They've been hiding everything else about themselves anyway, right?