The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)

[Prince of the North]

Yeah.. i think if there is one person that Ned would have told its Benjen. He probably meant to tell Jon later too.

Ben was his last brother left, and seeing how he joined the Night's Watch he seems like a man of trust..

'' Dad and Brandon are dead and Lyanna's dead too, and this is definently not her child, not the last memory of her...hes my bastard, that i kidnapped''

Plus Ben has the possibility to come back from the haunted forest and tell Jon, since he's 16 Ned surely meant to tell him at 16( if e ever meant to) This is assuming he really isnt a bastard of some random wench.

I think Benjen knew/knows the secret of Jon's parentage. Remember when Jon told Benjen that he was not his father and Benjen replied with "more's the pity"? I think those few words hold a lot of meaning. Whether Ned told Benjen or he figured it out himself, I don't know. However, I sort of lean toward him figuring it out on his own. I mean, how tough would it be for him to put two and two together? He was at the Harrenhall tourney, he knows Ned and Lyanna probably as well as or better than anyone, etc. I also think Lyanna made Ned promise to keep Jon's identity a secret and, Ned being Ned, he wouldn't break his word to Lyanna even to tell Benjen.

I also theorize that Benjen saw the lie as dishonorable and disagreed with Ned as to how to handle the Jon "situation". That's why he joined the Night's Watch. I think Jeor Mormont provides a clue here. You see, I think Benjen "took the hit" for honor's sake of joining the NW for someone who couldn't or wouldn't (Ned) in much the same way that old Jeor "took the hit" for honor's sake of joining the NW for someone who wouldn't (Jorah). Maybe they'are attempting to salvage or repair their family's honor?

That's sort of how I look at it (right now )

(Oh, and I think Coldhands is Benjen Stark but that's a completely different debate )

[automne]

I think Benjen knew/knows the secret of Jon's parentage. Remember when Jon told Benjen that he was not his father and Benjen replied with "more's the pity"? I think those few words hold a lot of meaning. Whether Ned told Benjen or he figured it out himself, I don't know. However, I sort of lean toward him figuring it out on his own.

I too think Benjen knows Jon is Lyanna's child. My bet is that even though Ned never told him he probably knew it from the very beginning. He figured it out himself simply because he knew honorable Ned and Wolf-girl Lyanna.

I also theorize that Benjen saw the lie as dishonorable and disagreed with Ned as to how to handle the Jon "situation". That's why he joined the Night's Watch.

(Oh, and I think Coldhands is Benjen Stark but that's a completely different debate )

I think he joined the NW because he wanted to be ready to fight the others. He takes the threat very seriously.

Benjen is Coldhands.

[Black Wizard]

Benjen probably joined the Night's Watch because he wasn't going to get anywhere as the younger brother of a Lord. He was in the same boat as Ser Waymar Royce and Loras Tyrell. It was difficult to find a position for a younger brother so Waymar joined the watch and Loras the Kingsguard.

[Shewoman]

We don't see any evidence of disagreement between Ned and Benjen. I think Black Wizard is right about Benjen's reasons for going to the Wall.

What "lie" did Benjen perhaps see as dishonorable? If R+L+J, would he want Ned to tell a truth that would get their nephew killed?

[automne]

Benjen probably joined the Night's Watch because he wasn't going to get anywhere as the younger brother of a Lord.

If that's always the case with younger sons, why does Ned says to Bran

One day, Bran, you'll be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king

The North is vast and the Starks were a wealthy family. IMO Benjen made the decision to join the NW because he thought that fighting the others was more important than anything else.

[Black Wizard]

Mabye Benjen didn't want to just be the dutiful brother & bannerman. Mabye he wanted to make a name for himself at the Wall. The Wall might not be the thing for all younger sons, but at least two made the choice to take oaths of service and celibacy (liars) rather than just be bannermen.

Note also that Benjen wouldn't be angry at Eddard not breaking a promise made to Lyanna.

[Hooplehead]

I also theorize that Benjen saw the lie as dishonorable and disagreed with Ned as to how to handle the Jon "situation". That's why he joined the Night's Watch. I think Jeor Mormont provides a clue here. You see, I think Benjen "took the hit" for honor's sake of joining the NW for someone who couldn't or wouldn't (Ned) in much the same way that old Jeor "took the hit" for honor's sake of joining the NW for someone who wouldn't (Jorah). Maybe they'are attempting to salvage or repair their family's honor?

I was under the impression that Jeor was already on the Wall when Jorah got into his trouble. Not relevant to this thread, but are we ever given a reason why the Old Bear joins the NW?

[Prince of the North]

We don't see any evidence of disagreement between Ned and Benjen. I think Black Wizard is right about Benjen's reasons for going to the Wall.

While we don't actually "see" any disagreement between Ned and Benjen that doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't any. I still think Benjen's reply "more's the pity" when Jon threw the fact that he wasn't his father in his his face means something. Also, as far as Benjen joining the Watch because he felt he had no prospects goes, I'm not so sure I agree. I don't think it would be that easy for a younger noble son to give up any chance at love, marriage, children, a still quite comfortable life making themselves useful to the family in some lesser role, etc., to join the NW. Benjen's speech to Jon on this very subject leads me to believe this.

What "lie" did Benjen perhaps see as dishonorable? If R+L+J, would he want Ned to tell a truth that would get their nephew killed?

No, I don't think Benjen would want Ned to tell the truth about Jon "to get him killed". That's not the only possible outcome. I theorize that Benjen honorably wanted to openly support Jon as the rightful king. One tiny, little problem with that, however, was that it most assuredly would have meant more civil war. Also, that's to say nothing of Ned's close personal friendship with Robert being replaced with going to war against each other. Whew, talk about Ned being between a rock and a hard place! The more I think about it the more sympathy I have for Ned.

[Prince of the North]

I was under the impression that Jeor was already on the Wall when Jorah got into his trouble. Not relevant to this thread, but are we ever given a reason why the Old Bear joins the NW?

I'm not a good one for looking things up in the books so I could easily be wrong. But I'm pretty sure the Old Bear joined the NW as a old man in an attempt to bring back some honor to his family after his son, Jorah, dishonored them all by being a slaver. Even if I am wong about that detail, however, the fact remains that the Northmen feel they can regain some honor by joining the NW. Jeor even wants Jorah to join to regain some honor for the Mormont family.

[Prince Rupert]

Sorry that this isn't continuous with the above comment.

I have searched for this specific question without finding anything.

If this theory of Jon's lineage is accurate, then would it be his king's blood that Melissandre is after rather than the baby he sends with Sam?

[Black Wizard]

Probably yes. Melisandre probably hasn't a clue about Jon's parentage, assuming his is Rhaegar's son.

[Shewoman]

Prince, History doesn't contain many infants who managed to hang onto thrones desired by others. It's hard for me to think that Benjen, who strikes me as rather practical, would think that Jon would have a chance. And, having just gone through one war, I'm not sure Westeros would really want another so soon.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I'm not a good one for looking things up in the books so I could easily be wrong. But I'm pretty sure the Old Bear joined the NW as a old man in an attempt to bring back some honor to his family after his son, Jorah, dishonored them all by being a slaver.

You are wrong about that, but not nearly so wrong as you are about Benjen being Coldhands.

Dany: "Did your fathers make the match?"

Jorah: "No. Our marriage...that makes a long tale and a dull one, Your Grace."

(He tells of his first wife, a Glover woman, and her death, then: ) "...By then my father had taken the black, so I was Lord of Bear Island in my own right. I had no lack of marriage offers, but before I could make a decision Lord Balon greyjoy rose in rebellion against the Usurper."

So Jeor was already in the Watch before his son even married Lynesse, let alone his subsequent disgrace due to his debts from trying to please her. It wouldn't make sense any other way; if Jeor was still his lord he would have prevented at least some of that sorry tale. Definitely the slaving. It was Jorah's ability to do whatever he pleased that led to his exile.

[Prince of the North]

Prince, History doesn't contain many infants who managed to hang onto thrones desired by others.

Are you talking about Westeros's history or our own real-life history? Real-life history would not matter much to Benjen Stark Either way I'm sure you're right but that still doesn't change the fact that Jon, assuming R+L=J, is the rightful king of Westeros. Thus, supporting him as such would be seen as the right and honorable thing to do to those concerned with such things as "right" and "honor".

It's hard for me to think that Benjen, who strikes me as rather practical, would think that Jon would have a chance.

But it's not about Jon, as an infant, having a chance to hold the Iron Throne. It's about the North, after Ned calls his banners and whoever else would ally with him, having a chance to hold the Iron Throne for Jon until he comes of age. Of course there would be a chance there but, as you say, it would not be practical (however, it would still have been the right and honorable thing to do). I agree with you that Benjen (and many others) seem to be rather practical, but in a world that holds "honor" in such high regard, honor and practicality would often be at odds, no? I think that's one of the central themes of the series.

And, having just gone through one war, I'm not sure Westeros would really want another so soon.

I think you've described exactly how Ned felt. So he does as his sister wished, lies, and protects her child while not plunging the Realms into civil war again. I theorize that Benjen didn't like it but knew it was how things must be (not to mention that Ned is also his lord and he would do as Ned wanted). What's a Northman to do in such a predicament as I surmise Benjen was in between honor and practicality? Well, join the NW, of course

How did it go again when Ned was talking with Arya about lying to protect Nymeria? I think it was something like "Even the lie...was not without honor". Hmm...sounds as if Ned may have thought a lot about such things.

Anyway, I have nothing but my own interpretation of what some things that were said might mean to go on here and I'm probably all wrong about Benjen. It's probably just my over-active imagination at work again

[Prince of the North]

You are wrong about that, but not nearly so wrong as you are about Benjen being Coldhands.

Dany: "Did your fathers make the match?"

Jorah: "No. Our marriage...that makes a long tale and a dull one, Your Grace."

(He tells of his first wife, a Glover woman, and her death, then: ) "...By then my father had taken the black, so I was Lord of Bear Island in my own right. I had no lack of marriage offers, but before I could make a decision Lord Balon greyjoy rose in rebellion against the Usurper."

So Jeor was already in the Watch before his son even married Lynesse, let alone his subsequent disgrace due to his debts from trying to please her. It wouldn't make sense any other way; if Jeor was still his lord he would have prevented at least some of that sorry tale. Definitely the slaving. It was Jorah's ability to do whatever he pleased that led to his exile.

Thanks, OiL!

Surprising that I would get some details wrong, eh?

Damn! There goes my theory that the reason Jeor joined the NW provides a clue as to why Benjen joined. However, joining the NW was still seen as a way to regain or repair one's honor, right? Jeor even wanted Jorah to join the NW for just this reason, I believe. I still think Benjen may have been struggling with issues of "conflicting honor(s)", practicality vs. honor, etc. I mean, they had Ned's promise to Lyanna going up against declaring for Jon and there was the fact that openly revealing and supporting Jon would result in much more bloodshed for an already ravaged land (to name a couple).

[Guest Other-in-law]

However, joining the NW was still seen as a way to regain or repair one's honor, right? Jeor even wanted Jorah to join the NW for just this reason, I believe.

Yeah, I agree.

I still think Benjen may have been struggling with issues of "conflicting honor(s)", practicality vs. honor, etc.

Alternatively Benjen would have heard the black brother's speech at the Harrenhal tourney. Interestingly, there were Mormonts there too (hadn't noticed that earlier). He may have simply been moved by a good sales pitch.

[sToNED_CAT]

Ned said nothing to Benjen. After all he was just kid at that time. I'm not sure how old he was, but Ned was maybe 20 during the war of usurper, and I got the impression that Benjen was MUCH youinger - perhaps 12? Would you trust kid/teenager to keep such thing secret?

[Shewoman]

Would the Starks have considered the Targaryens the rightful kings after all that happened? Would they consider it their responsibility to support that dynasty rather than Robert's--Ned's closest friend whom he fought to put on the throne? It is generally believed in Westeros that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and her family never saw her alive again. Aerys had Rickard and Brandon Stark, among others, killed shortly after her disappearance. Would the Starks want that dynasty to continue? Would anyone in Westeros expect them to? Or would they feel that such actions were heinous enough to deserve the dynasty's end? By this time the fact that some Targaryens are brutally insane and some are not was known in Westeros. It would be a horrible responsibility if they put Jon on the throne and managed to keep him there and he turned out to be another Viserys.

The Targaryens took the throne in the first place largely through violence. They lost it the same way.

[Black Wizard]

Do the sons and daughters bear the sins of their fathers?

Remember that the King in the North knelt to Aegon the Conqueror because he knew he didn't stand a chance against Dragons. Whoever becomes King (or Queen) in the North must see the sense in submitting to Daenerys' Dragons.

[Shewoman]

Sense, possibly--but I can't imagine that Ned would think honor required that he support the family that killed his father and brother.