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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)


Werthead

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It seems to me that if Ned had loved Ashara, he wouldn't want to damage her reputation. Furthermore, telling Jon that his mother was a noblewoman would probably change Jon's attitude rather drastically. People would wonder why. And when Catelyn realized it meant that her husband had made them traitors to the crown (at least that's how Robert would see it) by raising a secret Targ heir, the change in her attitude towards Ned would also be a strong one. We already know that there's some interest in Westeros over the identity of Jon's mother. I think Ned would prefer not to encourage such interest.

I don't think it likely that Ashara is Jon's mother. But I can understand why Ned doesn't want to talk about Jon's mother in any case.

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It seems to me that if Ned had loved Ashara, he wouldn't want to damage her reputation. Furthermore, telling Jon that his mother was a noblewoman would probably change Jon's attitude rather drastically. People would wonder why. And when Catelyn realized it meant that her husband had made them traitors to the crown (at least that's how Robert would see it) by raising a secret Targ heir, the change in her attitude towards Ned would also be a strong one. We already know that there's some interest in Westeros over the identity of Jon's mother. I think Ned would prefer not to encourage such interest.

I don't think it likely that Ashara is Jon's mother. But I can understand why Ned doesn't want to talk about Jon's mother in any case.

In N+A=J, it may be a consideration to keep a bastard taint off Ashara's name but not to the extent that Ned would be taking it. The slap to Catelyn's honor by telling her never to mention it again after she comes to him with that question is unwarranted. He may have wished it not to come up but if his lady wife directly asked if this individual was the mother of the child living under her roof, it would take a neanderthal type to speak to her like he does if Ashara actually was the mother. And what does it say about Ned that he would allow Wylla to be the fall-girl, not just to Robert but for the Dayne's as well. Is her honor negligible just because of her social standing?

If he took Jon against Ashara's will and caused her to commit suicide because of it, I suppose most men would feel guilty enough to never want it brought up again, but this doesn't seem like the Ned we meet. He doesn't seem like the kind to shy from hard truths and denying her as the mother in this scenario would only bring more disrespect to her name.

I'm not sure how the Targ heir angle comes into N+A=J.

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And what does it say about Ned that he would allow Wylla to be the fall-girl, not just to Robert but for the Dayne's as well. Is her honor negligible just because of her social standing?

The short answer is "yes". In a feudal mindset like Westeros, most lords would not consider smallfolk to have honour, and certainly would not consider it especially shaming for one to have had a lord's bastard.

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Logan, A wilding is right. Servants didn't have honor in feudal socieities (or any expectation of making politically and economically important marriages, which is the main occasion in which a woman's virginity or lack of it would be important). And Ned, as Catelyn's husband and lord, can speak to her however he wishes in that culture. You're reacting out of a twentieth-first century mindset--which I share--but we can't really expect members of medieval cultures to live according to our mores.

In order to be a wetnurse, Wylla must have borne and nursed at least one child already before she nursed Jon (unless she really is Jon's mother, which I doubt). We have no idea who fathered that child or what happened to him or the baby.

I don't think the Targ angle comes into N+A unless we start talking about switching babies (which is an issue in at least one theory).

Wylla may have volunteered to be the fall girl.

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And what does it say about Ned that he would allow Wylla to be the fall-girl, not just to Robert but for the Dayne's as well. Is her honor negligible just because of her social standing?

I agree with Shewoman that it is possible that, in fact I would say probable that, Wylla agrees to be the "fall-girl." Assuming that she is not really Jon's mother, then she is keeping up the cover story that she is, and doing so over a very long period of time and great distances removed for Lord Eddard Stark's power. The most likely explanation is that she wants the world to believe she is Jon's mother. The question becomes why? I believe she has old loyalties to Rhaegar and Lyanna, and was in fact one of the "they" at the Tower.

I do have a problem with the idea that Ned is unconcerned with Wylla's honor just because of her social standing. We have numerous examples of Ned treating his subjects as if they do have honor and are deserving of respect. Real world medieval examples not withstanding.

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SFDanny, would you have the same trouble if Wylla is willingly covering for Ned and Jon? Can't she make that decision if she wants to? Allowing her to make up her own mind is, in a sense, treating her with honor (and, of course, Ned has no authority over Wylla anyway, as far as we know). The Daynes do. They supported the Targaryens; I think they would respect her decision to act protectively towards a potential Targaryen heir--something that would, from a pro-Targ perspective, be understood as an extremely honorable act. I don't think Ned forced her into it (and if he had, he could harldly trust her). And I'm not clear as to how this hurts her honor. Honor for women generally involves their sexuality; in order to be a wetnurse, Wylla must have already had a child (although we don't know who the father was or what happened to him or the baby). No one could expect a wetnurse to be a virgin.

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Moreover, I don't think people would expect some wetnurse to say No to one of the greatest Westeros lords. How can she? And I agree it seems more likely that she agreed to be "fake mother" than was forced into it. If nothing else, big sum of money would convince her to agree, and would help her make good match if she wanted to.

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SFDanny, would you have the same trouble if Wylla is willingly covering for Ned and Jon? Can't she make that decision if she wants to? Allowing her to make up her own mind is, in a sense, treating her with honor (and, of course, Ned has no authority over Wylla anyway, as far as we know). The Daynes do. They supported the Targaryens; I think they would respect her decision to act protectively towards a potential Targaryen heir--something that would, from a pro-Targ perspective, be understood as an extremely honorable act. I don't think Ned forced her into it (and if he had, he could harldly trust her). And I'm not clear as to how this hurts her honor. Honor for women generally involves their sexuality; in order to be a wetnurse, Wylla must have already had a child (although we don't know who the father was or what happened to him or the baby). No one could expect a wetnurse to be a virgin.

I guess I didn't write that post very well because I agree with all of the above. Wylla most likely maintains the cover story because she wants to, because she chooses to, not because someone forces her to do so. My belief is that Wylla probably has loyalties to Rhaegar, a trusted family servant most likely, one who had supported Lyanna during the pregnancy. Her loyalties continue on with Jon, not with Ned. She only works with Ned because she believes that is in the best interests of Jon, and in the best interest of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's memories. Anyway, that's my best explanation for why she has maintained the cover story for all these years. It certainly isn't likely to have been from fear of Ned Stark.

Regarding Wylla's honor, I wasn't trying to say any of this hurt her sense of honor. Far from it. I was only saying that, contrary to the real medieval world, Ned Stark shows us many examples of where treating "common" people with honor and respect is important. He thinks his servants have honor and deserve to be listen to, and treated in ways that most of Westerosi nobility probably finds curious. He would find it troubling to ask someone to lie about such a thing, even if Wylla has absolutely no problem with it.

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SFD, you said you thought Wylla was one of the "they" who found Ned with Lyanna's dead body. That suggests to me that she was at the ToJ before Ned was (I don't think it likely that he brought her there, particularly since he enumerates his companions for us). Therefore she may well know more about Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the possibility that they had a child than he does. She may well have been loyal to one or both of them before she ever heard of Ned Stark. Ned may not have needed to ask her to protect Jon--but, given that he admitted to treason to save Sansa's life when it wasn't true, I don't think he'd balk at a lie being used to save another child for whom he feels responsible.

Unless Wylla is Jon Snow's mother (which I doubt--why would Ned choose to tell Robert her name when he is generally unwilling to talk about Jon's mother at all?), then Wetnurse Wylla must have had and nursed a child--a child we know nothing about, including the name of its father. What happened to that man and that child may have set Wylla's loyalties.

I think it likely that, if Rhaegar wanted to have another child, he would have arranged for a wetnurse to be where Lyanna was--but, in the interests of secrecy, he'd want it to be someone he could trust. Therefore I think it likely that anyone he brought to the ToJ was vouched for by someone he did trust. We know that in the series present Wylla is living at Starfall. It's possible that that's her home, that her family has been Dayne retainers in much the same way that the Cassells have been for the Starks. We don't know that, of course, but if it's true I think Rhaegar would have accepted Arthur's vouching for her integrity.

I don't think Rhaegar's son Aegon survived. But if he did, it seems likely that some child's head was bashed in in his place. We know that he had the general Targaryen look. If Wylla's family has served the Daynes for some time, she may have their Targaryenesque coloring. If a child was substituted for Aegon, a child of Wylla's could be a likely candidate--and Ashara Dayne had close ties with Elia.

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