The Tragedy of Barristen Selmy

[Drogo]

Barristan Selmy is without a doubt the last honorable knight in the world in my opion. He is a relic from they days when the kingsguard was a truly admired and respected post. And as such I can't help but wonderr how he his going to react to all the lies and corruption coming Dany' way. And how many of those people Dany will have him advise to her on. Sine Barristan has kinda replaced mormont has Dany's right hand man it seems to me that when Dany decide who to trust among quentyn, tyrion, connington, mummers, dragon, victarion, and crow Ser Barristan will have the final say on who stays with Dany and who gets the cut. PLus with the appearance of Tyrion and Jon Connington it seems likely these two characters will open Dany's eyes to the madnesss of her father before she is ready to accept it. Just putting Ser Barristan's important role out there.

[hobomagic]

This is why dany is so screwed. Mormont was the only advisor she had with enough real world experience and inteligence to be of any use in governing. Selmy is too noble to shit. You want someone like him around to act as your conscience, but he can't be relied upon for helpful advice.

Also, the notion that Selmy is the last honest knight in the world is absurd. The KG is obviously going through a rough patch ATM and Westeros is definately in crisis but this is a state much more like normal Westeros than not. Remember, the conquest is a relatively recent historical abberation and the normal state of affairs is 7 kingdoms, which means lots of war.

[Patrick Mallister]

[quote name='hobomagic' post='1255967' date='Mar 4 2008, 23.43']This is why dany is so screwed. Mormont was the only advisor she had with enough real world experience and inteligence to be of any use in governing. Selmy is too noble to shit. You want someone like him around to act as your conscience, but he can't be relied upon for helpful advice.[/quote]

i agree with you to a certain extent. i think Selmy's dismissal from the KG really opened his eyes a bit about how Westeros is run. I think he will be far more valuable than you give him credit for. while i think he will retain his honor, he won't let it blind him like it has in the past.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The _real_ tragedy of Barristan Selmy is that he's almost certainly going to die in ADWD. Whether Dany wins or loses in Meereen (and I think she's much more likely to lose), GRRM has to ratchet up the tension somehow, by having the Sons of the Harpy get somebody close to her. Barristan is the most high-profile character with her right now, and one of the few without suspect loyalties. Killing him is the most expedient way to put her in a visibly precarious situation.

[Daemrion]

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1256074' date='Mar 5 2008, 15.52']The _real_ tragedy of Barristan Selmy is that he's almost certainly going to die in ADWD. Whether Dany wins or loses in Meereen (and I think she's much more likely to lose), GRRM has to ratchet up the tension somehow, by having the Sons of the Harpy get somebody close to her. Barristan is the most high-profile character with her right now, and one of the few without suspect loyalties. Killing him is the most expedient way to put her in a visibly precarious situation.[/quote]

I'd disagree. I'd ditch Belwas first please. And Barristan I reckon has to die by Jaime's hand, in a sword fight.

[Mezeh]

I’m not so sure that Selmy would die in ADWD. He may become a target but he is hard to kill so he may survive the book.

The other thing will be interesting. He is extremely important for Dany as the only link with her past. So far he is the only man who knew not only her father and her brother but her grandfather and even great grandfather as well. Appearance of Jon Connington will change that. Connington was a close friend of Rhaegar and Selmy never was particularly close to any member of the royal family. Besides Dany relations with Connington will have completely different start. While no one question Selmy valor in battles he still betrayed House Targaryen and had to ask forgiveness for his crime. Connington on the other side never betrayed anyone but instead Aerys made him great injustice by rewarding his loyal and valiant service by disgrace and exile. Selmy begged Dany for forgiveness but with Connington Dany would have to ask him to forgive her father deeds.

[Bverrit Keep]

[quote]Barristan Selmy is without a doubt the last honorable knight in the world[/quote]
Yeah, and then he had Dany betray Jorah. Fuck Barristan the Bold.

EDIT: Also, Strong Belwas won't die. He's not important enough, nor should such epic comic relief be killed off.

[A wilding]

[quote name='Bverrit Keep' post='1256361' date='Mar 5 2008, 12.37']Yeah, and then he had Dany betray Jorah.[/quote]
So you think that Barristan shouldn’t have told Dany that Jorah was sending reports about her back to Robert?

[King James]

Ser Barristan was a member of the small council Ser Jorah reported to. If his "honor" is so important to him, why didn't he run and try to warn Dany WHEN Robert dispatched the assassin? His honor changed sides (from Targaryen to Barratheon) after Robert killed Rheagar. And, now, it 's changed again after Robert's "son" dismissed him from the KG.

How does this not make him a traitor, two times over...?

[A wilding]

But wouldn’t he become a traitor three times over if, having now taken service with Dany, he didn’t tell her that one of her closest henchmen was actually spying on her for her enemies?

I am not sure that I would like to justify Barristan’s sense of honour entirely, but at least he is consistent. Having given his service, he gives his service totally. IMO his only questionable action is agreeing to serve Robert when he recovered from his wound and discovered that Robert was now king – and he makes a reasonable defence of that decision to Dany.

[Drogo]

I think your all over looking the fact that a war like the one of five kings hasn't ravaged then entire kingdom since the blackfyre rebellion. The Targs rule could be considered the golden age of westeros sure there were some crazies but with them came many many great leaders. This whole shit storm they got themselves into now is from there NOT being a targ on the throne its alsmost as if the Targs are the savior race of leaders who all men will follow an obey. Barristan is a relic from those times as he is the last man alive who truly respected and loved his position as kingsguard he said it himself in AGOT. Barristan was shamed by letting himself go over to roberts side and he never forgot that betrayal to his vows, now he sees an oppostunity to make Westeros great again with a great leader. No Barristan is the last honorable knight out there and there is no way the fuckign [i]sons of harpies[/i] are going to KILL Barristand the [b]Bold[/b]. This guy is still in the top ten most dangerous people of all time.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='Daemrion' post='1256222' date='Mar 5 2008, 03.02']I'd disagree. I'd ditch Belwas first please. And Barristan I reckon has to die by Jaime's hand, in a sword fight.[/quote]

I'm not sure I see why Jaime has to kill Barristan. And the death of Belwas wouldn't have nearly the same impact.

[King James]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1256430' date='Mar 5 2008, 05.35']But wouldn’t he become a traitor three times over if, having now taken service with Dany, he didn’t tell her that one of her closest henchmen was actually spying on her for her enemies?[/quote]

I'm not saying he shouldn't have told Dany. She needed to know, and at least he came clean about his own involvement.

My point was that he sells his honor as readily as one of Chataya's girls sell her...you get the picture. His honor goes to whoever he thinks is going to win. That puts him in the same category as "the Late Lord Frey"...

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='hobomagic' post='1255967' date='Mar 4 2008, 21.43']This is why dany is so screwed. Mormont was the only advisor she had with enough real world experience and inteligence to be of any use in governing. Selmy is too noble to shit. You want someone like him around to act as your conscience, but he can't be relied upon for helpful advice.[/quote]
You may be right that Selmy can't be relied upon for helpful political advice (although I'm not as sure). I'm not sure if the rest of what I'm saying should be "spoilered" so I'll play it safe :)

SPOILER: ADWD

However, I do think that Tyrion could fit that role quite nicely for Dany. He can play dirty with the best of 'em! The only thing is how will Dany view Tyrion in the beginning? Will she immediately distrust or maybe even hate him because he's a Lannister, one of "the Usurper's Dogs"? Or will she give him the benefit of the doubt because he's definitely on the outs with the Lannisters, etc.? Plus, he'll have Illyrio's endorsement - so that may get him in the door, so to speak.

I think she will reserve judgement until she learns more. I think that's already been set up with her saying something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "people will always tell you lies but if you listen to enough people you'll discover the truth". She's going to be hearing a lot of different things in the near future from all of the different emmissaries headed her way and it's going to be up to her to figure out what everyone's angle is. It will be very difficult for her to figure out who to trust and I think both Selmy and Tyrion can help her with that.

Also, The Fat Man, makes a good point a few posts above. If Martin wants to ratchet up the pressure on Dany and have her "grow up" as a ruler even faster offing Selmy, her most trusted advisor, would certainly do that!

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, the only way Barristan "sold" his honor is that he now pledges himself to whom he considers the "most fit" heir- recall, the Baraetheon brothers *are* Dany's heirs and next in line for the throne if she dies by any measure we're aware of (in fact, by Westerosi primogeniture, it's possible that with the death of Viserys Robert became the rightful king, and that's the reason for the Dance parallel), and Barristan, upon recovery, decided Robert was a more fit heir than Viserys. Having decided that Robert's heirs aren't fit, he has now returned to Dany, who is fit.

Fail to see how that's selling his honor. Now, if Robert wasn't actually in the succession, that would be different.

[Besselfunction]

I agree that Barristan will probably die in ADWD.

SPOILER: ADWD

With the arrival of Jon Connington, his presence no longer has a purpose. Connington probably knows more about Rhaegar than Selmy does. I think Barristan's last bit of information he passes to Dany is that the Rebellion against Aerys was justified. This will be an important point when Tyrion arrives in Meereen.

His value is therefore that most of the readers respect and like him and thus will be shocked by his sudden death. It kind of mirrors Ned's situation at the end of AGOT. It somehow also reminds me of Dumbledore in the penultimate Harry Potter book.

[The Usurper's Dogs]

I also agree that Selmy is gonna bite it. He knows too much about Dany's history and the history of her family. Therefore, to increase tension, he must die before he can impart this knowledge to her. What he knows could open doors that she must blunder into and figure out how to open herself. Or not.

[Bronn Stone]

It is definitely a tragedy that Barristan Selmy has to suffer the indignity of threads in his honor where his name is spelled wrong in the thread title.

And he was once the greatest knight in all of Westeros...

[Bverrit Keep]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1256395' date='Mar 5 2008, 14.08']So you think that Barristan shouldn’t have told Dany that Jorah was sending reports about her back to Robert?[/quote]
Jorah had stopped doing that ages ago. Why is it even relevant? Weren't his loyalties more than apparent? Yet Barristan's weren't -- he was an agent of Illyrio's. He needed something to prove his loyalty. Jorah was the sacrifice, and Dany took the bait.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Jorah had stopped doing that ages ago. Why is it even relevant? Weren't his loyalties more than apparent?[/quote]
Sure, if you take Jorah at his word. The thing about that is, well, Jorah's a lying traitorous bastard. In the scene whre she confronts Barristan and Jorah for the last time, I was struck by the difference between Barristan's contrition and Jorah's... not. Barristan wanted to make amends. Jorah wanted Dany to see that he was really in the right all along. She walked into that room intending to pardon them both, and Jorah damned himself by his own words.

Yes, his loyalties were more than apparent. They lie with Jorah Mormont.