The Worth of Renly Baratheon

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1285920' date='Mar 24 2008, 15.54']It wasn't 100+K decisions to follow Renly, though. First and foremost, it was Mace Tyrell's decision (and I think we can dismiss[i] his[/i] judgment even more safely than Donal Noyes!), his myriad vassals had little choice but to follow suit...even the Florents who didn't want to were in no position to say no at that point. And then Renly's own vassals who were bound to follow him; they can use the 'just following orders defense if he loses with minimal repercussions, but much worse repercussions if they refuse him at the outset, surrounded by his mighty host. The Conningtons (who defied Robert) came out of Robert's Rebellion rather worse than any of the Tyrell men who stuck with Mace throughout (though not those who abandoned the Tyrell cause and fought for Stannis).[/quote]

Renly was quite openly in rebellion to the throne, though. Remember that, at the time he first made his claim, the incest allegations had yet to be publicly made. Many of those lords could have legitimately sided against him, just as some stormlords sided against Robert during the Usurper's War, yet, as far as we know, none did so. I think it's fair to say most of Renly's lords followed him willingly. The impact that 'Renly's Ghost' had at the Battle of the Blackwater is hard to deny - most of these men loved Renly Baratheon.

[snake]

Well, I don't wanna get into a long protracted argument about why I think Renly would have been a a worse king than Robb or Stannis. I just think Renly thought he was capable of greatness and other than his close friends no one else did and he never really did anything to show that he was right.

I'll leave the last word to his loyal defenders. :)

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

[quote name='snake' post='1286307' date='Mar 24 2008, 12.55']Well, I don't wanna get into a long protracted argument about why I think Renly would have been a a worse king than Robb or Stannis. I just think Renly thought he was capable of greatness and other than his close friends no one else did and he never really did anything to show that he was right.

I'll leave the last word to his loyal defenders. :)[/quote]

well i won't be so proprietary with the last word, but i will say that ruling the Stormlands for so long, from childhood almost, leaves Renly wise beyond his years. the best players are the ones who have truly been playing all their lives.

it is hard to pinpoint why i think Renly would have been a good leader, i guess. he clearly had the charisma. i think what affected me most was his very reasonable and rational fleeing of KL at the end of AGOT. i know i bring it up over and over again, but it is one of the few times we truly see Renly shine.

i think i need a re-read of AGoT. i only ever read that one once.

[Ealasaid]

I think that Renly was a character created to show us the "summer knights," or whatever Catelyn called his group. He did not march to war, so much as party his way to a wrectched death. I like Renley as a character. I'm glad he had his romance with Loras, who mourns him.

But I don't think Renley would have been a very good king.

Stannis will answer for that death, I hope.

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1287000' date='Mar 25 2008, 14.26']it is hard to pinpoint why i think Renly would have been a good leader, i guess.[/quote]

I don't think it's that hard. Nobody is claiming he'd be remembered as Renly the Great or something, just that he'd be a half decent ruler, and better for the realm than the other options. He wasn't a genius, but he was reasonably shrewd politically, something Robb lacked. He inspired devotion in his followers, something Stannis is practically incapable of (Davos being the exception). Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy are such poor options that I don't think I even need to list the reasons why Renly would be preferable to them. If Robb had proved to be more pliable with his personal honour, I'd rank him the best candidate without a doubt, but his adherence to personal honour weakened him greatly and pissed off some of his strongest supporters.

He has weaknesses, no-one denies that. He was self interested, a bit of a schemer, and obviously preferred style to substance. I don't think any of those would make him a bad ruler.

Also, it's made quite clear that his slow march up the Roseroad is strategy, plain and simple. There was no reason for him to rush the march on King's Landing when the Starks, Lannisters and Tullys were busy tearing each other apart.

The thing I've always found funny about those that use Noye's opinion as proof of Renly's worthlessness - Noye was critical of all three Baratheon boys. He basically says Renly is pretty but stupid, Robert is strong but stupid, and Stannis is liable to snap and go nuts. It's pretty damning on all three, not just Renly.

[BrainFireBob]

Phrased that way does put Stannis is a better light . . .who wouldn't go nuts as that middle child?

[Eponine]

The slow march up the Rose Road was about the only thing that Renly could do at the time. Marching on KL as quickly as possible wouldn't have been very smart, especially if he had any idea of the conditions within the walls (hunger, overcrowding, rioting...) Hiding in his castle until all his rivals destroyed each other might have worked, but would have marked him as cowardly and weak. He must have realized that much of his support came from young, impatient, idealistic knights who had no legal basis for supporting him, and keeping them entertained and high spirited during the march was important.

I've been a Renly supporter for a long time. He inspires loyalty the same way Robert did, but without the drunkenness and whoring- even after his death, his men returned to his side when they thought they were seeing his ghost. He gathered a lot of support from houses that had no real reason to make him king over Joff or Stannis. He seems to have made a good choice of castellan while he was in KL (based on Penrose's loyalty and courage). And most importantly to me, he had the best plan for what Ned should do after Robert died that didn't involve killing anyone, didn't involve upset the line of rulership so far as anyone else knew (Joff would still have been king eventually, but with Ned as Lord Protector), and was seemingly for the greater good (I believe his offer was sincere and that he wasn't planning to betray Ned). Of course things wouldn't have been that easy with Littlefinger determined to spread chaos, but that doesn't mean it was a bad plan.

[marwyn]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1287000' date='Mar 25 2008, 04.26']well i won't be so proprietary with the last word, but i will say that ruling the Stormlands for so long, from childhood almost, leaves Renly wise beyond his years. the best players are the ones who have truly been playing all their lives.

it is hard to pinpoint why i think Renly would have been a good leader, i guess. he clearly had the charisma. i think what affected me most was his very reasonable and rational fleeing of KL at the end of AGOT. i know i bring it up over and over again, but it is one of the few times we truly see Renly shine.

i think i need a re-read of AGoT. i only ever read that one once.[/quote]


Reasonable and rational fleeing of KL? 0o If you get attacked by a lion in the woods, you'd run away out of the woods. Not because you think 'Oh this lion might be hungry and there is a chance of 95.5% that he will attempt to attack me, and this could be harmful, so I'd better remove myself from the lions presence''. No, you'd probably think "Shit.Lion.Run''. There's nothing rational and reasonable about that.

Oh, he had charisma, but that's exactly why Donal described him as copper. And I feel that we see a lot of Grrm's own opinions shining through that statement.

As to ruling the stormlands making him wise, I think there's a huge difference between the stormlands and the intrigue of KL. I mean, Ned ruled Winterfell for his whole life but that doesnt mean he was prepared to deal with it, he got owned in the end as we all know. Also, Renly ruling the Stormlands doesnt mean he was a GOOD ruler, or that he was wise at all. He seems to be pretty egocentric and overestimating his own abilities.

[A wilding]

[quote name='Marwyn' post='1287988' date='Mar 25 2008, 21.14']As to ruling the stormlands making [Renly] wise, I think there's a huge difference between the stormlands and the intrigue of KL. I mean, Ned ruled Winterfell for his whole life but that doesnt mean he was prepared to deal with it, he got owned in the end as we all know.[/quote]
Comparing Ned and Renly shows up one point to Renly’s advantage though. When Robert died Renly was smart enough to predict Cersei’s coup, to suggest a pre-emptive strike to Ned, and when Ned did not want to play ball, to get out while the going was good. While Ned just blundered to disaster.

[Jaak]

[quote name='Marwyn' post='1287988' date='Mar 25 2008, 23.14']Reasonable and rational fleeing of KL? 0o If you get attacked by a lion in the woods, you'd run away out of the woods. Not because you think 'Oh this lion might be hungry and there is a chance of 95.5% that he will attempt to attack me, and this could be harmful, so I'd better remove myself from the lions presence''. No, you'd probably think "Shit.Lion.Run''. There's nothing rational and reasonable about that.
s.[/quote]

Yes, but Renly did give reasonable and serious consideration to an alternative. Attacking as he proposed to Eddard.

He urged the attack (100 swords he could gather, plus the 27 of Eddard, plus the legitimacy of Eddard as Hand and appointed guardian). When Eddard refused, Renly did not like some of his other options (waiting and doing nothing while Lannisters prepare; submitting to Lannisters and hoping for their mercy which they do not have; going on with a coup alone, without and against Eddard), and decided to run. We know he eventually decided to run; we do not know how he reached that decision - e- g. he may have discussed the matter with Loras, so that he could decisively reject the options like waiting and staying with Eddard, doing coup alone or submission.

[Itkovian]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1288718' date='Mar 26 2008, 07.48']Comparing Ned and Renly shows up one point to Renly’s advantage though. When Robert died Renly was smart enough to predict Cersei’s coup, to suggest a pre-emptive strike to Ned, and when Ned did not want to play ball, to get out while the going was good. While Ned just blundered to disaster.[/quote]

Well, to be fair, Ned DID play ball, just not the same way Renly wanted. Instead of kidnapping children and forcing Cersei to comply as Renly wanted, he decided to purchase the Gold Cloaks instead with Littlefinger's help to enforce Robert's declaration (long enough to become regent and expose the truth about Cersei's children).

His way would have worked just as well as Renly's, had Littlefinger not betrayed him.

But then again, Littlefinger is busy betraying half the realm without any of them knowing it, so I don't see that as some sort of failing on Ned's part.

And, in turn, I don't see this as any proof that Renly is a better player than Ned. He may be quicker to resort to underhanded tactics, but Ned did what he needed to do when push came to shove.

That said, I agree that the march up the roseroad was not foolishness, but planned strategy. Let the three other armies fight each other, then move in and pick up the pieces. :)

Thank you.

Itkovian

[hobomagic]

[quote name='Marwyn' post='1287988' date='Mar 25 2008, 17.14']As to ruling the stormlands making him wise, I think there's a huge difference between the stormlands and the intrigue of KL. I mean, Ned ruled Winterfell for his whole life but that doesnt mean he was prepared to deal with it, he got owned in the end as we all know. Also, Renly ruling the Stormlands doesnt mean he was a GOOD ruler, or that he was wise at all. He seems to be pretty egocentric and overestimating his own abilities.[/quote]

There is a big difference between being a lord, and being hand. Being hand means anyone who wants appeal over your head to the king, something Cersi did all the time. You don't get to have the final decision. As hand Renly would have done better than ned, though not a whole lot better. If nothing else, he would have survived. Ned would have been a better King than Hand, though his conservatism would have prevented him from making as much change as he ought.

[quote]Well, to be fair, Ned DID play ball, just not the same way Renly wanted. Instead of kidnapping children and forcing Cersei to comply as Renly wanted, he decided to purchase the Gold Cloaks instead with Littlefinger's help to enforce Robert's declaration (long enough to become regent and expose the truth about Cersei's children).

His way would have worked just as well as Renly's, had Littlefinger not betrayed him.

But then again, Littlefinger is busy betraying half the realm without any of them knowing it, so I don't see that as some sort of failing on Ned's part.[/quote]

That is just the point though, Ned couldn't tell who he could and could not trust. He trusted LF becuase he was a friend of Cat's, and mistrusted Varys becuase he didn't have a cock and Renly because he was flashy. He made no effort to assess where people's interests lay. He put himself completely in LF's power, and died for it.


[quote]And, in turn, I don't see this as any proof that Renly is a better player than Ned. He may be quicker to resort to underhanded tactics, but Ned did what he needed to do when push came to shove.[/quote]

No, ned waited until it was too late, then begged LF for help. Renly's plan would actually have worked. Ned's was absurd.

[Lord Varys]

There's much tragedy in the history of Renly and Stannis Baratheon. Not only in the whole events during ACoK but, more importantly, during the untold time before Stannis left for Dragonstone after Jon Arryn's death. He knew then of the incest. He was aware of Renly's and Loras's relationship - knew how close he was to the Mace Tyrell's favorite son. So if he turned to Renly with the story about Jaime and Cersei he could have been quite successful in convincing Robert of the truth. For we know that Loras and Renly schemed to get rid of Cersei to make Margaery Tyrell his new Queen. So even if Renly did not believe Stannis's incest story - as he claims in ACoK - he would never have missed this opportunity to get rid of the Lannisters.

More importantly, with Renly knowing the truth about the incest, it would have been possible for Renly and Stannis to make a deal after Robert's death. Stannis becomes King, Renly his heir. We knew that Renly didn't want to become King at all cost. He just try to take over when all other options he held reasonable failed. He would have served under Lord Protector Eddard Stark, if he would have taken his offer. But then, Ned made the same mistake as Stannis: Not telling Robert about the incest, not telling Renly about the incest.

[Jaak]

[quote name='hobomagic' post='1289765' date='Mar 27 2008, 02.59']No, ned waited until it was too late, then begged LF for help. Renly's plan would actually have worked. Ned's was absurd.[/quote]
If he even had one.

The parting words of Eddard and Renly were: let´s hope gods are merciful - Lannisters are not. Eddard continued to rely on Renly´s 100, though.

If Eddard had a plan he could have told that to Renly: you have 100 swords to offer, but the Gold Cloaks are 2000 swords, and they will crush the Lannisters even after we give the Lannisters time to prepare. Renly would have been likely to point out flaws in it, though. But Eddard had no plans to encourage Renly with.

[Itkovian]

[quote name='hobomagic' post='1289765' date='Mar 26 2008, 20.59']That is just the point though, Ned couldn't tell who he could and could not trust. He trusted LF becuase he was a friend of Cat's, and mistrusted Varys becuase he didn't have a cock and Renly because he was flashy. He made no effort to assess where people's interests lay. He put himself completely in LF's power, and died for it.

[...]

No, ned waited until it was too late, then begged LF for help. Renly's plan would actually have worked. Ned's was absurd.[/quote]

I see no evidence that Ned didn't trust Varys because he was an Eneuch (sp?), and that seems rather silly IMO (no offense). He was certainly wary around Varys, and that's rather because Varys is the crafty master of whisperers, something that Ned certainly would not be comfortable with.

As for Renly, he did not go with Renly's plan because he did not want to actually cause harm to the Cersei's children, at least not more than necessary, and in fact as I recall we are privy to a thought of his to that effect.

Finally, Ned's plan would have worked splendidly, had Littlefinger not betrayed him. What Ned needed was to stop the Queen from taking action against him long enough to make his appointment by the King official and known to the land. Once he had been officially named Regent and so recognised by the nobility, Cersei could not have removed him with ease, even less so since Ned was planning on revealing the truth about her children and essentially make Stannis Robert's true heir (it's a real shame his letter to Stannis never made it, it would have changed so many things).

Had Littlefinger been loyal to him, this _would_ have worked. He would have been named Regent, would have gone ahead with his proclamation and named Stannis the true heir (barring assasination, of course).

That does not mean all would have been well, of course. The Lannister would have openly declared for Jeoffrey and there would have been a Civil War for sure. Only this time it would be the Lannisters on one side against the North and Stannis (and perhaps Renly, there's no way to tell if Renly would have declared for Stannis in this case, or gone for the Throne himself still). And I believe Eddard knew this as well, but chose the path to Civil War because it was the right thing to do (the true heir WAS Stannis, after all).

Either way, to call his plan absurd is simply incorrect, for he certainly would have prevailed when he confronted Cersei in the throne room, had Littlefinger truly been loyal. That was the opportunity he needed.

Did he fail? Certainly, quite miserably so, but that does not mean he played the game wrong. To me it seems he walked the fine line between his personal sense of Honour and the machinations of the court. His error was in believing Littlefinger was on his side, due to his attachment to Catelyn (which ironically is precisely why Littlefinger betrayed him).

If trusting Littlefinger means he was incompetent at the Game of Thrones, then so are pretty much every players, since Littlefinger has been busy fooling the entire Seven Kingdoms from Day One it seems. :)

Anyway, my apologies for derailing the thread, I fear I get rather single minded when discussing this particular topic. :)

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Maia]

[quote name='Itkovian' post='1288902' date='Mar 26 2008, 11.34']Well, to be fair, Ned DID play ball, just not the same way Renly wanted. Instead of kidnapping children and forcing Cersei to comply as Renly wanted, he decided to purchase the Gold Cloaks instead with Littlefinger's help to enforce Robert's declaration (long enough to become regent and expose the truth about Cersei's children).

His way would have worked just as well as Renly's, had Littlefinger not betrayed him.[/quote]

Do you really think that a modest amount of money would have induced Slynt, a man whom Stannis tried to get shortened by a head, and his officers, who were mostly of similar disposition, to put that same Stannis on the throne? The idea was absurd, LF here or there. For it to have a slightest chance of success, Ned would have had to either replace Slynt and a good number of his closest cronies - as Tyrion eventually did. Or to guarantee him a much higher reward and immunity from prosecution for his past crimes.

For that matter, it was absurd to think that a man like LF would throw away everything because Ned was set on an unpopular and uncompromising course of action. Stannis would have dismissed him at the very least. LF couldn't have the woman he loved, so he'd sacrifice his career too for the sake of her husband?!

It is because of things such as these that I can only shrug when people say that Ned could have been a good king or a good Hand...

[alguien]

[quote name='Maia' post='1290969' date='Mar 27 2008, 17.53']Do you really think that a modest amount of money would have induced Slynt, a man whom Stannis tried to get shortened by a head, and his officers, who were mostly of similar disposition, to put that same Stannis on the throne? The idea was absurd, LF here or there. For it to have a slightest chance of success, Ned would have had to either replace Slynt and a good number of his closest cronies - as Tyrion eventually did. Or to guarantee him a much higher reward and immunity from prosecution for his past crimes.

For that matter, it was absurd to think that a man like LF would throw away everything because Ned was set on an unpopular and uncompromising course of action. Stannis would have dismissed him at the very least. LF couldn't have the woman he loved, so he'd sacrifice his career too for the sake of her husband?!

It is because of things such as these that I can only shrug when people say that Ned could have been a good king or a good Hand...[/quote]

I don't know if that's completely fair.

We don't know that Slynt knew that Stannis tried to shorten him by a head beforehand. He may have been aware that someone was bringing charges against him. The very fact that Slynt asked Stannis publicly for his support at Castle Black shows that Slynt might not have known that Stannis was aware of how corrupt he was.

Ned certainly wasn't very familiar with Stannis, nor was he aware of Slynt's corrupt past. So to fault him on that score smacks of Monday morning quarterbacking.

In Eddard's POV, Littlefinger wasn't going to "throw away everything" by bribing the goldcloaks, just ensure that Eddard had the back-up to do what in his mind was right.

I'd say that Ned was a good ruler (look how well he ruled the North for so many years), competent and intelligent, its just that he was thrown into a situation where he was completely unaware of many important facts. I doubt if anyone could have fixed the mess he was in. Grant it, others may have survived, but probably by running away or by making immoral choices. Ned's intelligence wasn't the problem, his morals were. Had he others to aid him, (who was on his side...no one) he might have come out better.

[Maia]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1291009' date='Mar 27 2008, 18.17']I don't know if that's completely fair.

We don't know that Slynt knew that Stannis tried to shorten him by a head beforehand. He may have been aware that someone was bringing charges against him. The very fact that Slynt asked Stannis publicly for his support at Castle Black shows that Slynt might not have known that Stannis was aware of how corrupt he was.[/quote]

Well, Stannis's reputation alone would preclude corrupt officials supporting him, unless offered a very high reward and promises of immunity. Slynt asking Stannis at Castle Black doesn't mean anything - asking costs nothing and Slynt was no longer under his jurisdiction. And IIRC, Stannis's request to prosecute Slynt wasn't made in secret.

[quote]Ned certainly wasn't very familiar with Stannis, nor was he aware of Slynt's corrupt past.[/quote]

Ned knew Stannis's reputation and the fact that he didn't take trouble to find out what kind of man Slynt and his officers were shows that he wasn't a good Hand. After all, the Gold Cloaks didn't just keep order in the city (which should have been important enough), they also garrisoned the Red Keep.


[quote]In Eddard's POV, Littlefinger wasn't going to "throw away everything" by bribing the goldcloaks, just ensure that Eddard had the back-up to do what in his mind was right.[/quote]

LF outright told Ned that Stannis would dismiss them both and all Ned could think about was how glad _he_'d be to return home, without sparing a thought for LF's situation. Yes, that would mean "throwing away everything" for LF.

[alguien]

[quote name='Maia' post='1291027' date='Mar 27 2008, 17.31']Well, Stannis's reputation alone would preclude corrupt officials supporting him, unless offered a very high reward and promises of immunity. Slynt asking Stannis at Castle Black doesn't mean anything - asking costs nothing and Slynt was no longer under his jurisdiction. And IIRC, Stannis's request to prosecute Slynt wasn't made in secret.[/quote]

It probably wasn't secret, since men brought forth as witnesses disappeared. But its seems pretty foolish for Slynt to ask his for his support if he knew that Stannis was gunning for him personally, especially is Stannis's reputation was as well known as you say. Which, I don't think it was. Either way, its logical to concluded that Janos didn't know how much Stannis knew about him and even more logical to conclude that Eddard wouldn't have either, so can't be faulted for making this judgement.


[quote name='Maia' post='1291027' date='Mar 27 2008, 17.31']Ned knew Stannis's reputation and the fact that he didn't take trouble to find out what kind of man Slynt and his officers were shows that he wasn't a good Hand. After all, the Gold Cloaks didn't just keep order in the city (which should have been important enough), they also garrisoned the Red Keep.[/quote]

He certainly didn't know the extent of Stannis's reputation. I don't think many did. Be that as it may, I also don't think he was Hand long enough to have the opportunity to learn what kind of men were serving the city, and so its not a fair criticism. I'm pretty sure nearly the entire council conspired to keep knowledge from him. The only people who were interested or cared about the Gold Cloak's corruption were Jon Arryn and Stannis, one dead, the other fled. So how would he have found out? Nearly the whole time he was in office he had a lot more pressing concerns.


[quote name='Maia' post='1291027' date='Mar 27 2008, 17.31']LF outright told Ned that Stannis would dismiss them both and all Ned could think about was how glad _he_'d be to return home, without sparing a thought for LF's situation. Yes, that would mean "throwing away everything" for LF.[/quote]

Granted, trusting Littlefinger was obviously not a good move. But to fault Eddard's decision on relying on a man his wife told him to trust implicity simply because he didn't realize the full political ramifications having not known the full extent of Stannis's reputation combining with a hypothetical loss of position mentioned once in a conversation doesn't make sense.

My argument is that Ned's downfall was not from lack of ability or intelligence, but more because he was too moral a man to play the game of thrones the way it would need to be played to win

[hobomagic]

[quote]If trusting Littlefinger means he was incompetent at the Game of Thrones, then so are pretty much every players, since Littlefinger has been busy fooling the entire Seven Kingdoms from Day One it seems.[/quote]

Trusting a man and using him are not the same thing. Look at Tyrion. He trusts LF about as far as he can throw him, but still manages to make sure LF is on his side. How? By properly aligning the incentives. LF could have gone to Bitterbridge and convinced the Tyrells that they should make war on the lannisters to avenge past wrongs, but he didn't because Tyrion ensured it wasn't in his interests to do so. Ned offered LF nothing in exchange for risking his neck, ensuring he would be betrayed.

[quote name='Nadie' post='1291188' date='Mar 27 2008, 21.22']Granted, trusting Littlefinger was obviously not a good move. But to fault Eddard's decision on relying on a man his wife told him to trust implicity simply because he didn't realize the full political ramifications having not known the full extent of Stannis's reputation combining with a hypothetical loss of position mentioned once in a conversation doesn't make sense.

My argument is that Ned's downfall was not from lack of ability or intelligence, but more because he was too moral a man to play the game of thrones the way it would need to be played to win[/quote]

It isn't just that. Ned is arrogant and faily bigoted. He outright ignores Varys becuase he is the spider, depsite varys' repeated attempts to help him. He ignores Renly as well. Ned is fairly intelligent, but it isn't his morals that got in his way, it was big headed stubborness and aristocratic disdain for his "lessers."