[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 3 but actually Jon 1

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

shev,

You mistake my point. I don't think Tywin would waste any time on Slynt that's not the issue. That someone would report Tywin's murder to Slynt [i]before[/i] Jon is a sign of Jon's weak hold on the Lord Commandership and why it is an absolute neccessity for Jon to firmly establish his control of the position. Once Slynt disobeyed a direct order, he had to die. If he didn't Jon would be seen as weak.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1294963' date='Mar 31 2008, 14.07']shev,

You mistake my point. I don't think Tywin would waste any time on Slynt that's not the issue. That someone would report Tywin's murder to Slynt [i]before[/i] Jon is a sign of Jon's weak hold on the Lord Commandership and why it is an absolute neccessity for Jon to firmly establish his control of the position. Once Slynt disobeyed a direct order, he had to die. If he didn't Jon would be seen as weak.[/quote]

Agreed. I don't think Tywin gives a damn about Janos Slynt. I can see them worrying about Jon leaving the wall and trying to rally the North, but since the power of Winterfell is broken, they know he can't be much of a threat. So Janos Slynt might only be potentially useful in his attitude towards Stannis. Janos is such a moron. How could he think that his friends in Kings Landing are worth anything when Stannis Baratheon is like 10 feet away from him? Douchebag.

Oh man, I can't wait to see Jon start kicking some ass, now that he is in a position of power. I imagine that we will get some major satisfaction out of Dance. Edited March 31, 2008 by LugaJetBoyGirl

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1294963' date='Mar 31 2008, 13.07']That someone would report Tywin's murder to Slynt [i]before[/i] Jon is a sign of Jon's weak hold on the Lord Commandership and why it is an absolute neccessity for Jon to firmly establish his control of the position.[/quote]

That's an interesting point, but who would have reported Tywin's death to Slynt before Jon? Stannis didn't bring a maester with him to Castle Black; we know that because Sam is bringing him messages in Jon 1. So if there was a bird sent from King's Landing, then we're basically looking at Sam being a closet Slynt supporter despite all evidence. Edited March 31, 2008 by The Fat Man

[shevchenko65]

GRRM has done this in the past, where some news has been spread without explaining how. Since we don't have the chapter word for word, and we don't know for sure if it was mentioned, or if it's one of those things that GRRM chooses not to take the time to go through.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TFM,

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1294996' date='Mar 31 2008, 14.29']That's an interesting point, but who would have reported Tywin's death to Slynt before Jon? Stannis didn't bring a maester with him to Castle Black; we know that because Sam is bringing him messages in Jon 1. So if there was a bird sent from King's Landing, then we're basically looking at Sam being a closet Slynt supporter despite all evidence.[/quote]

No, I don't think so. Sam left at first light the day [i]before[/i] Slynt was executed. Someone else, Clidas perhaps, was keeping the ravens. If the news arrived, as I speculate, between Sam and Aemon's departure then Clidas the old raven keeper may be one of Thorne and Slynt's cronies.

Shev,

[quote]GRRM has done this in the past, where some news has been spread without explaining how. Since we don't have the chapter word for word, and we don't know for sure if it was mentioned, or if it's one of those things that GRRM chooses not to take the time to go through.[/quote]

Sure, but this is Jon over a contiuous two and a half day period. At the start he thinks of Tywin as alive, if I recall correctly. At the end of this period we have Slynt yelling that "If Tywin were alive..." It would be unusual for word an event as momentous as Tywin's murder to reach the Wall and receive no comment. Then again, as LJBG pointed out, it was a busy two and a half days. Edited March 31, 2008 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[LugaJetboyGirl]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1295021' date='Mar 31 2008, 13.47']No, I don't think so. Sam left at first light the day [i]before[/i] Slynt was executed. Someone else, Clidas perhaps, was keeping the ravens. If the news arrived, as I speculate, between Sam and Aemon's departure then Clidas the old raven keeper may be one of Thorne and Slynt's cronies.

Sure, but this is Jon over a contiuous two and a half day period. At the start he thinks of Tywin as alive, if I recall correctly. At the end of this period we have Slynt yelling that "If Tywin were alive..." It would be unusual for word an event as momentous as Tywin's murder to reach the Wall and receive no comment. Then again, as LJBG pointed out, it was a busy two and a half days.[/quote]

Yea, but wouldn't Janos be a bit less cocky if he'd just found out Tywin was dead within the last 24 hours? You'd think he'd be slightly less sure of the situation. Unless he underestimated Jon [i]that[/i] much, which is possible, I guess.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Ser Scot:

Fair enough. I was a little unclear on the timeline. It seems to me, though, that news about the death of Tywin would spread naturally in Castle Black without anybody being in league with Janos Slynt or anybody else. When Lord Mormont is out examining Othor and Jafer Flowers, a raven arrives announcing the arrest of Ned Stark on treason, and most of the battalion hears about it before Lord Mormont returns. Clydas may have mentioned something to the guards, or one of Stannis' men could have returned with the news. Clydas is not the most detailed character, admittedly, but he doesn't seem the sort to be in league with any particular faction.

Also, I don't know that Jon would necessarily have commented on the news. As far as I can recall, we never see the moment where Jon hears about the Red Wedding, and that's far more important to him personally than Tywin's death. He obviously liked Tyrion when he knew him, but that was over a year ago now and he never really knew Tyrion that well, so I don't know that it's a particularly important relationship to Jon.

[Maia]

[quote name='Ran' post='1294435' date='Mar 31 2008, 07.59']Appointing Slynt isn't something that I think should necessarily detract from Jon Arryn as Hand. Same with appointing Littlefinger. These seem to have been men who were clearly capable of doing the jobs handed to them ,and presumably at the time Janos did not seem to be notably corrupt.[/quote]

Well, LF is clearly a very able man and Robert was in constant need of money, so it isn't so surprising that he rose so far so fast. Also, he was a childhood friend of Lady Arryn.

But Slynt? He didn't make an impression of competency on me, nor did we hear of any great service performed by him for any of the allies during the Rebellion. His behavior in this chapter shows again and for the last time that he wasn't very clever. I dunno, IMHO it was a very odd appointment. KL City Watch may be "only" a police force, but it is the greatest permanent body of armed men in Westeros and also responsible for the security of the Red Keep, i.e. the royal family itself. And Slynt was low-born, he didn't particularly distinguish himself in anything as far as we heard and had no reason to be particularly loyal to Robert's regime either. I am sure that a lot of landless knights who fought for Robert would have been happy to get that position and a capable man could have been picked from among them. In fact, sprinkling Robert's partisans among the City Watch after the war would have been a great idea, both as a reward for their service and for insuring loyalty.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LJBG,

[quote name='LugaJetBoyGirl' post='1295044' date='Mar 31 2008, 15.06']Yea, but wouldn't Janos be a bit less cocky if he'd just found out Tywin was dead within the last 24 hours? You'd think he'd be slightly less sure of the situation. Unless he underestimated Jon [i]that[/i] much, which is possible, I guess.[/quote]

I think Slynt has a habit of underestimating people. He certianly underestimated Tyrion.

TFM,

[quote]Also, I don't know that Jon would necessarily have commented on the news.[/quote]

We were never actually with Jon during the times those events are revealed to the Watch. This time it appears he would have learned of Tywin's death within the two and a half day period covered by this chapter. Edited March 31, 2008 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[LugaJetboyGirl]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1295079' date='Mar 31 2008, 14.26']LJBG,



I think Slynt has a habit of underestimating people. He certianly underestimated Tyrion.

TFM,



We were never actually with Jon during the times those events are revealed to the Watch. This time it appears he would have learned of Tywin's death within the two and a half day period covered by this chapter.[/quote]

Maybe there is an even earlier Jon chapter that we haven't gotten! Maybe Jon already thought a lot about it in an earlier chapter that we have yet to see. That would explain why Tywin is really not in the forefront of his thoughts, but Bran is. Obviously he is steeling himself to rule like his father, to be a man, rather than a boy, so it would make sense that he is thinking about Bran and Tommen rather than Gramps. Just a wish :)

[Ran]

[quote]But Slynt? He didn't make an impression of competency on me,[/quote]

Yet this very chapter has Jon suggest that he commanded lots of men and must not be stupid. Jon's impression might be woefully wrong, but on the other hand it could be right. He held his post for years, it seems, and we're never told he held it despite a lack of competence. He held it despite his corruption, certainly, but being corrupt doesn't mean you can't also be competent.

[quote]His behavior in this chapter shows again and for the last time that he wasn't very clever.[/quote]

Arrogance has led to the downfall of lots of people, even generally clever ones. Like Tywin and his "green boy", Slynt is far too stuck on questions of age ("boy") or appearance ("dwarf"). It doesn't mean that in certain circumstances he can't be very dangerous (see Ned Stark).

[quote]... nor did we hear of any great service performed by him for any of the allies during the Rebellion.[/quote]

He was a mere officer of the City Watch. If he were smart, he just kept his head down and hoped not to attract Aerys's attention, thereby avoiding basting and roasting.

Presumably, after the Sack, Jon and Robert reviewed the most able surviving officers of the City Watch and supposed Slynt would do the best job.

[quote]And Slynt was low-born...[/quote]

Which rather speaks to his competence, surely? As we see with Addam Marbrand and from Tyrion's remarks in ACoK, it was probably rather normal to hand the reins of power to lordlings and knights and the like, and not care too much about whether they were capable or not. A commoner who climbed up to a high position seems almost always to have done so on some sort of merit (see Septon Barth), OTOH.

It's entirely possible that, following the Sack, the officer corps was decimated and Slynt was merely competent But I think it's more probable that he was able to lead his men effectively, as he did when he managed to have a hundred or more men involved in taking out Ned Stark and his household without any of them figuring they could make more money by whispering something to the Hand to put him on his guard.

It's also possible, of course, that Slynt became Commander only some time well after the Rebellion, and that it was Littlefinger who orchestrated it. But we're told it's Jon Arryn who appointed him, and since no one hints Littlefinger was involved, I'd guess it was genuinely Jon Arryn who did it. Edited April 1, 2008 by Ran

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LJBG,

As I pointed out earlier, I think he's even harder than Ned. Ned lost his head for attempting to protect the children of his enemy. Jon was threatening to kill the child of a friend.

[A Time for Wolves]

Wow, what a chapter. Jon Snow has never been a favorite of mine - he's a little too perfect, a little too emo and whiny, a little too much the stereotypical hero. And his chapters were always gloomy and depressing. He became a bit better in ASOS, and now he seems to be becoming [i]much[/i] more interesting. I like the remark GRRM made about Jon becoming a much greyer character in the future. That sounds awesome to me.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Ever since I read this last night, I've been wondering: what on earth does Alliser Thorne do now? Jon has raised the stakes, definitely, and set things up so that Alliser can't officially complain (what with Slynt refusing an order in full view of dozens of brothers and all); but at the same time Alliser can't be any kind of schemer if he allows Jon to simply kill his patron right in front of him with no response. He has to make some kind of move in retaliation, but what?

[LugaJetboyGirl]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1295105' date='Mar 31 2008, 14.41']LJBG,

As I pointed out earlier, I think he's even harder than Ned. Ned lost his head for attempting to protect the children of his enemy. Jon was threatening to kill the child of a friend.[/quote]

Word. I totally agree.

[siyrean]

[quote name='Brienne of Tarth' post='1295408' date='Mar 31 2008, 18.52']Wow, what a chapter. Jon Snow has never been a favorite of mine - he's a little too perfect, a little too emo and whiny, a little too much the stereotypical hero. And his chapters were always gloomy and depressing. He became a bit better in ASOS, and now he seems to be becoming [i]much[/i] more interesting. I like the remark GRRM made about Jon becoming a much greyer character in the future. That sounds awesome to me.[/quote]

this is exactly how i felt about him, now reading this, for the first time i actually want more Jon chapters. bring on the grey!

[aegor_storm]

What an awesome chapter. Thats the only time ice and fire has appeared in the same sentence since that dany chapter in clash. most satisfying death since joffrey.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Maia' post='1295078' date='Mar 31 2008, 14.25']But Slynt? He didn't make an impression of competency on me, nor did we hear of any great service performed by him for any of the allies during the Rebellion. His behavior in this chapter shows again and for the last time that he wasn't very clever.[/quote]

I agree with Ran here. Slynt was in his way a fool, and yet he managed to gather quite a bit of support from both the gold cloaks and the black. Hell, the man was the strongest candidate for lord commander until Mormont's raven did its little trick. Clearly, Slynt has a way of building a certain following among the men he commands, and that may be what got him his promotion from Robert. Also, after the Sack of King's Landing I don't imagine there were a whole lot of available candidates.

[Septic Septon]

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1294863' date='Mar 31 2008, 18.20']It could be simpler than that. Qyburn doesn't have informants on the Wall--I don't know that Varys did either; certainly I don't recall that he ever knew anything about the Night's Watch that wouldn't have come from a raven sent to King's Landing--and Jon saw no need to send an official announcement because Slynt was a Lannister ally.[/quote]

But there was direct communication between Janos and the Lannister, Tywin says something like "Our man Janos Slynt writes that... [whatever]" at some point during AFfC. At the very least his no longer writing should alarm them. Or else they really do not care.

Concerning Alliser... Well, I have always hoped that Jon would eventually come to terms with him and acknowledge him for a valuable and useful member of the Watch despite all his fault. And actually this chapter comforts me (yes !) in this idea. I think Jon still resents Thorne, but at the same time begins to understand he needs more men like him, tough and hardened, harsh men for a harsh time.

He knew that whomever he would chose in the Thorne/Slynt camp would balk and he would have to make an example of him ; which his why he chose Slynt as the most disposable of the two. Thorne is arrogant and abusive but he is not a toad like Slynt. This is like the talk he gave to Aemon about a good comander using every man no matter his faults. If he cannot bring himself to do the same thing and put his feeling for Thorne aside that's just eddard-ish bigotry. Kill the boy, Jon.

Oh, and I am aware that Alliser may not be trustworthy. But I do not believe it. In my opinion he has just shown him who is the boss and Alliser may even start to grudgingly respect him for that.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1295556' date='Mar 31 2008, 22.03']I agree with Ran here. Slynt was in his way a fool, and yet he managed to gather quite a bit of support from both the gold cloaks and the black. Hell, the man was the strongest candidate for lord commander until Mormont's raven did its little trick. Clearly, Slynt has a way of building a certain following among the men he commands, and that may be what got him his promotion from Robert. Also, after the Sack of King's Landing I don't imagine there were a whole lot of available candidates.[/quote]

And this is why Jon saw him as so much of a threat, it seems to me, and why he knew Janos had to go.