AHackeySackOfIceAndFire Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 One thing I've learned from Martin is the importance of heirs. As many conflicts as there are between completely separate and distinct houses, the driving forces of many plotlines are the heirs to different seats of power within the houses, especially when the line is otherwise weak. The Lannisters have many cousins, but the Starks have basically none, and this made Robb's choice of an heir so interesting. Inheritance is a device that can shift a lot of power to otherwise innocuous players. The most obvious is probably Harry the Heir. He was a knight and a playboy, but he may all of a sudden become a Lord of a Great House of Westeros. The line of succession can also take a lot of power away from players who seem more powerful. Joffrey's position of power in the line of succession made Robert dispensible to the Lannisters. Black Walders ambition makes everyone before him in line significantly weaker than they are by rights. Another thing I've learned from Martin is that thinking a character is too valuable to kill off is naive in the extreme. What if Dany dies, perhaps at the end of ADwD or sometime in TWoW? Who gets the dragons? Where would her khalasar go? And most importantly, who is Dany's heir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Dany's closest known heir is Stannis Baratheon, unless Edric Storm is legitimized. If anything happened to her, the dragons would probably be seized by whoever could take them or go wild. The khalasar would implode; there is no real second-in command, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Angalin' post='1294270' date='Mar 31 2008, 08.25']Dany's closest known heir is Stannis Baratheon, unless Edric Storm is legitimized.[/quote] No, Daenerys´ closest known heir is Tommen, then Myrcella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Possibly, if it weren't for that pesky fact that Robert Baratheon isn't their father. ;) An issue which may well be raised during Cersei's trial and which Stannis himself will never let go of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I think the dragons would go nuts, unless someone else has gotten close to them and fed them, played with them etc and gained their trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Angalin' post='1294306' date='Mar 31 2008, 09.34']Possibly, if it weren't for that pesky fact that Robert Baratheon isn't their father. ;) An issue which may well be raised during Cersei's trial[/quote] Cannot be done. Like Qyburn explained, Tommen was still king. [quote name='Angalin' post='1294306' date='Mar 31 2008, 09.34']and which Stannis himself will never let go of.[/quote] He won´t, but few believe him, officially. Robb rebelled against all Baratheons irrespective of legitimacy. Renly laughed off Stannis´ accusations, and Tyrrells followed suit in accepting Joffrey and Tommen as trueborn. Martells accept Myrcella as trueborn. Lysa and Petyr rejected Stannis as well. Has Daenerys made any official statements to the effect that Tommen and Myrcella are not legitimate, but Stannis and Shireen are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Jaak' post='1294317' date='Mar 31 2008, 00.58']Cannot be done. Like Qyburn explained, Tommen was still king. He won´t, but few believe him, officially. Robb rebelled against all Baratheons irrespective of legitimacy. Renly laughed off Stannis´ accusations, and Tyrrells followed suit in accepting Joffrey and Tommen as trueborn. Martells accept Myrcella as trueborn. Lysa and Petyr rejected Stannis as well. Has Daenerys made any official statements to the effect that Tommen and Myrcella are not legitimate, but Stannis and Shireen are?[/quote] For now, yes, Tommen is still king and Cersei benefits from the protection this affords her. Even so, having Cersei's and Margaery's trials conducted by the Faith means that closed books may be opened simply because the new High Septon is a wild card here. Having completely lost control of her schemes, Cersei's best hope is that Qyburn's champion in the trial by combat is all he is promised to be. Otherwise the Faith may prove to be kingmakers in the aftermath. IMO, the great houses will accept Tommen and Myrcella as trueborn [i]only as long as it suits them[/i]. If their parentage or anything else looks like sinking them, the other houses will bail as quickly as they can find another suitable candidate. This may be the contingency for which Littlefinger is prepping Sansa. As far as Dany is concerned, all Baratheons are toast in the making. ;) She has given more thought to another marriage than to heirs, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Angalin' post='1294327' date='Mar 31 2008, 10.26']For now, yes, Tommen is still king and Cersei benefits from the protection this affords her. Even so, having Cersei's and Margaery's trials conducted by the Faith means that closed books may be opened simply because the new High Septon is a wild card here. Having completely lost control of her schemes, Cersei's best hope is that Qyburn's champion in the trial by combat is all he is promised to be. Otherwise the Faith may prove to be kingmakers in the aftermath.[/quote] What would the Tyrells do if they take King´s Landing and rescue Margaery? Accepting that the Faith has even the right to try Margaery would be a precedent they do not like. If they suppress trials by Faith on principle, then the Faith cannot try Cersei either. (On the other hand, the Tyrells don´t want to restore Cersei as Regent. Backdating her deposition some time would allow them to disown Cersei´s concessions to Faith.) [quote name='Angalin' post='1294327' date='Mar 31 2008, 10.26']IMO, the great houses will accept Tommen and Myrcella as trueborn [i]only as long as it suits them[/i]. If their parentage or anything else looks like sinking them, the other houses will bail as quickly as they can find another suitable candidate. This may be the contingency for which Littlefinger is prepping Sansa.[/quote] [quote name='Angalin' post='1294327' date='Mar 31 2008, 10.26']As far as Dany is concerned, all Baratheons are toast in the making. ;)[/quote] No, just Stannis (who, as adult, held King´s Landing and then attacked Dragonstone, forcing Willas to flee with her). Given the way Daenerys acts shocked about the treatment of the boys made Unsullied, and the sons of the good masters of Astapor made unsullied after her departure, it is very clear that neither Shireen nor Myrcella nor Tommen is a toast in the making for Daenerys. King Tommen delivered alive to Daenerys would be safe under her protection, trueborn or incestuous bastard. How will Daenerys treat Tommen? As a trueborn child who has no right as yet to the Iron Throne usurped by his father but who does have the right to Stormlands, and Casterly Rock after Cersei dies, and who would, after Daenerys eventually dies barren, get the Iron Throne back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrex Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Poor Tommen, things don't look too good for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Jaak' post='1294336' date='Mar 31 2008, 02.14']What would the Tyrells do if they take King´s Landing and rescue Margaery? Accepting that the Faith has even the right to try Margaery would be a precedent they do not like. If they suppress trials by Faith on principle, then the Faith cannot try Cersei either. (On the other hand, the Tyrells don´t want to restore Cersei as Regent. Backdating her deposition some time would allow them to disown Cersei´s concessions to Faith.)[/quote] Good question about the Tyrells' next move. Hmm. What they do may depend on who is tried first, Margaery or Cersei. If Cersei goes down, then they can blame her for persecuting innocent Margaery and try to get Margaery off that way. M also has much more popular support than Cersei, and fewer nobles waiting to pile on if she is toppled. If M is up first, the finger can still be pointed at Cersei. I also think it will be very, very difficult to disown Cersei's concessions to the Faith. Unravelling the deal she made (letting them rearm in return for cancelling the crown's debt to the Faith and anointing Tommen as king) means that someone has to come up with a lot of money. Tommen's kingship would be back in question. And I can't remember what the Targaryens had to do to get the militant orders banned, but I suspect it wasn't pretty. And a great deal of the Faith's current power and influence exists because they are the one organization standing up for the smallfolk and are now well-enough armed to do it properly. [quote]How will Daenerys treat Tommen? As a trueborn child who has no right as yet to the Iron Throne usurped by his father but who does have the right to Stormlands, and Casterly Rock after Cersei dies, and who would, after Daenerys eventually dies barren, get the Iron Throne back?[/quote] I can see Dany treating Tommen well because he's still a child, but it's likely that someone in her close circle will blab about Jaime and Cersei. The most she might stretch to then is legitimizing him as Lord of Casterly Rock, but only if Tyrion is completely out of the running due to death or other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Wrex' post='1294347' date='Mar 31 2008, 02.39']Poor Tommen, things don't look too good for him.[/quote] No, especially not if you believe Cersei's prophecy. It also occurs to me that this thread is in General, not AFFC, but discusses events through AFFC. Damn. Maybe the mods could move it? Pretty please? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Angalin' post='1294349' date='Mar 31 2008, 11.41']I can see Dany treating Tommen well because he's still a child, but it's likely that someone in her close circle will blab about Jaime and Cersei. The most she might stretch to then is legitimizing him as Lord of Casterly Rock, but only if Tyrion is completely out of the running due to death or other things.[/quote] Jaime and Cersei as an accusation is public knowledge. Both Tyrells and Martells know about the accusation and choose to reject it. Daenerys has an interest in rejecting the accusation as well. Myrcella is in the Martell hands. And Martells are the one major house who is committed to Daenerys. If she wins, well, Quentyn is supposed to get Daenerys´ hand and heart. But this still leaves the question of disposing of Storm´s End and Casterly Rock. Recognizing Myrcella as trueborn Baratheon in face of accusations would enable Daenerys to reward Martells with Casterly Rock or Stormlands - but this would mean recognizing Tommen as trueborn also. Legitimizing Tommen and Myrcella as Lannisters would mean that they only have Casterly Rock to dispose of, which would go to Tommen before Myrcella, leaving Martells with nothing. Stormlands should then go to Shireen, but Myrcella is, let´s say, far nicer a bride for Trystane than Shireen would be as Lady of Storm´s End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wizard Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I don't expect Dany to die in the series, but she was told in the House of the Undying that she would bear no living children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Angalin--Qyburn's champion can't defend Cersei; she must be defended by a member of the KG (hence her pathetic letter to Jaime). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrex Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Shewoman' post='1294594' date='Mar 31 2008, 15.24']Angalin--Qyburn's champion can't defend Cersei; she must be defended by a member of the KG (hence her pathetic letter to Jaime).[/quote] Yes, but what if she finds out about Ser Arys Oakhearts demise in Dorne? Would she then be able to put her champion into the kingsguard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wizard Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Jaime wouldn't be much use at defending her anyway. He gets his ass kicked every night by the toungueless guy. Payne (what's his first name?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrex Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Black Wizard' post='1294611' date='Mar 31 2008, 15.31']Jaime wouldn't be much use at defending her anyway. He gets his ass kicked every night by the toungueless guy. Payne (what's his first name?)[/quote] Ilyn Payne, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Black Wizard' post='1294481' date='Mar 31 2008, 08.50']I don't expect Dany to die in the series, but she was told in the House of the Undying that she would bear no living children.[/quote] No she wasn't. She was told that (indirectly, it being one of other 'impossible' things that would happen before Drogo fully recovered) by Mirri Maz Duur, who was her open enemy by that point. It's not like the truth of her claim has been proven in any way, yet. As for Dany's treatment of Tommen, I think the Tyrells will spare her from that quandary by playing the Lannisters this time around, and presenting his and Myrcella's bodies wrapped in gold Tyrell cloaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wizard Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Jaak' post='1294360' date='Mar 31 2008, 10.03']If she wins, well, Quentyn is supposed to get Daenerys´ hand and heart. But this still leaves the question of disposing of Storm´s End and Casterly Rock. Recognizing Myrcella as trueborn Baratheon in face of accusations would enable Daenerys to reward Martells with Casterly Rock or Stormlands - but this would mean recognizing Tommen as trueborn also.[/quote] Danearys could also legitimise one of Robert's bastards and use him as the Lord of Storm's End. She's not likely to kill children who didn't even know their father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrex Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='Other-in-law' post='1294618' date='Mar 31 2008, 15.36']No she wasn't. She was told that (indirectly, it being one of other 'impossible' things that would happen before Drogo fully recovered) by Mirri Maz Duur, who was her open enemy by that point. It's not like the truth of her claim has been proven in any way, yet. As for Dany's treatment of Tommen, I think the Tyrells will spare her from that quandary by playing the Lannisters this time around, and presenting his and Myrcella's bodies wrapped in gold Tyrell cloaks.[/quote] Omg, I can totally see that happening as well, poor Tommen and Myrcella. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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