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Red Herrings


Bormon

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[quote name='SkyPirate' post='1308038' date='Apr 9 2008, 15.13']Varys also knows, but I doubt that he cares... He was the one who sent Gendry to the blacksmith, if I'm not mistaken but he also made him go with Yoren to the Wall to become a crow.[/quote]

What does Varys [i]not[/i] know?
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[quote name='Eloisa' post='1307912' date='Apr 9 2008, 11.55']Did you mean Stark-[b]Baratheon[/b]? I see no Targs...[/quote]

Gendry isn't a Baraetheon, by that logic.

His father's grandmother was a full-blooded Targaryen. That's Robert's claim to the throne- he and his brothers are perhaps the closest heirs to the family of Aerys.

The only alternatives are descendants of Brightflame and Daeron's "simple" daughter. Equally close relatives.
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About Gendry.

The Brotherhood Without Banners are King's Men. They still claim to follow Robert, even though he is dead.

Thoros says that recently they have lost their way (since UnCat sent them on a roaring rampage of revenge).

Once they find out who he is, the BWB will reunite under Gendry, their King's son, with the renewed purpose of helping the smallfolk, not hanging Freys.

I guess he could be a red-herring in that some readers think he will be King. He isn't a red-herring according to the OP's definition, though, because there are other important reasons for him to be there - he is not [i]only[/i] there to make readers think he will be King.

I am of the opinion that there are no pure red-herrings in this series. There is nothing there simply to trick the reader and nothing else.
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[quote name='Nadie' post='1307444' date='Apr 9 2008, 23.48']My first thought after reading it was "blond hair and purple eyes? is this kid a Targaryen or something?" I didn't remember his age at the time, nor did I think he might be Aegon, having never really given much thought to the Aegon is alive theory at that point. That's why I thought it was a possible red herring. Its not inconceivable that GRRM would throw that in with the dual purpose of adding confusion and describing the Daynes.[/quote]
Arya looks at Edric and sees that he is blonde with blue eyes that are almost purple. She asks him if he has killed anyone. He replies that he is only twelve.

I guess the average reader might not think it through enough to realize that Edric is too young to be the child of Aerys, Rhaella or Rhaegar, and too old to be the son of Viserys or Dany. I guess then it could be a red-herring to the average reader.

Again, though, not by the OP's definition. Edric is there to shed light on Jon's parentage, not [i]just[/i] to make the average reader think he could be a Targ.

ETA:
[quote](besides, was [u]blond[/u] hair and purple eyes a Dayne trait, I thought it was just purple eyes?)[/quote]
Ashara is described as "fair". Dorkstar's hair is silver. Edric's is ash blonde.
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[quote name='BeN 1014' post='1308056' date='Apr 9 2008, 15.27']What does Varys [i]not[/i] know?[/quote]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1308063' date='Apr 9 2008, 15.30']How to make cheese.[/quote]

:rofl:

Nice! You had both of us here rolling on the floor after that one!
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The indentity-of-Jon-Arryn's-killer, to me, was one of the great red herrings.
When you start the saga, the question of "who killed Jon Arryn?!" is made out to be all-important. By the time I had the answer in AFFC, it no longer had much impact on the story, if any.
Of course, the event of the murder itself, and the resulting suspicion it cast in so many diretions, did push alot of plots.

:fence:
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[quote name='Sarella' post='1308214' date='Apr 9 2008, 18.03']I guess the average reader might not think it through enough to realize that Edric is too young to be the child of Aerys, Rhaella or Rhaegar, and too old to be the son of Viserys or Dany. I guess then it could be a red-herring to the average reader.

Again, though, not by the OP's definition. Edric is there to shed light on Jon's parentage, not [i]just[/i] to make the average reader think he could be a Targ.

ETA:

Ashara is described as "fair". Dorkstar's hair is silver. Edric's is ash blonde.[/quote]

Dorkstar has silver hair with midnight black. (having black hair myself, I can tell you that it does go silver) Anyway, fair can mean light-skinned, light brown hair, or attractive. It doesn't necessarily mean blond.

Again to clarify, I said it could be dual purpose description; to throw confusion on the trail and also shed light on to Jon's possible mother Wylla. Which then, by definition of the OP, [i]would[/i] be a possible red herring.

Heck, if Jon's parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar, you could argue that Edric's mention of Wylla was a red herring.
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[quote name='Nadie' post='1308370' date='Apr 10 2008, 10.48']Dorkstar has silver hair with midnight black. (having black hair myself, I can tell you that it does go silver)[/quote]
It is silver with a streak of midnight black.

[i]Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple.[/i]

[quote]Anyway, fair can mean light-skinned, light brown hair, or attractive. It doesn't necessarily mean blond.[/quote]
No it doesn't. I bet that in this case it means silver, blonde, or silver-blonde, but you are right that the reader has no way of knowing for sure.

[quote]Again to clarify, I said it could be dual purpose description; to throw confusion on the trail and also shed light on to Jon's possible mother Wylla. Which then, by definition of the OP, [i]would[/i] be a possible red herring.[/quote]
I agree it serves a dual purpose. That is exactly why it [i]doesn't[/i] fit the OP's definition! The OP's definition is: "something that GRRM put into the story with [b]no other purpose[/b] but to get us the reader to think that it is something more that it is."

[quote]Heck, if Jon's parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar, you could argue that Edric's mention of Wylla was a red herring.[/quote]
Yes, it is a red-herring according to coventional definition. Lyanna is the real thing, Wylla and Ashara are red-herrings. But again according to the OP's definition, it isn't a red-herring, because it serves other purposes, e.g. to inform the reader that House Dayne claim Wylla is Jon's mother and that Wylla is covering up the secret by spreading the false information that she fathered Ned Stark's bastard.

The reason I am being nitpicky about the definition is that I agree with the OP that there are no pure red-herrings in this series. That GRRM makes good use of every detail - he doesn't waste a detail by making it purely misdirection. He makes it serve more than one purpose. Therefore there is nothing that is [i]only[/i] there to make the reader think it is something more than it is.
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[quote name='Sarella' post='1308511' date='Apr 9 2008, 21.19']It is silver with a streak of midnight black


I agree it serves a dual purpose. That is exactly why it [i]doesn't[/i] fit the OP's definition! The OP's definition is: "something that GRRM put into the story with [b]no other purpose[/b] but to get us the reader to think that it is something more that it is."


Yes, it is a red-herring according to coventional definition. Lyanna is the real thing, Wylla and Ashara are red-herrings. But again according to the OP's definition, it isn't a red-herring, because it serves other purposes, e.g. to inform the reader that House Dayne claim Wylla is Jon's mother and that Wylla is covering up the secret by spreading the false information that she fathered Ned Stark's bastard.

The reason I am being nitpicky about the definition is that I agree with the OP that there are no pure red-herrings in this series. That GRRM makes good use of every detail - he doesn't waste a detail by making it purely misdirection. He makes it serve more than one purpose. Therefore there is nothing that is [i]only[/i] there to make the reader think it is something more than it is.[/quote]

Ah. After re-reading the OP I'm forced to agree with you. There are no red herrings by the OP's definition because I'm pretty sure every word of Ice and Fire has some purpose besides "getting us the reader to think that it is something more than it is". :) Thats not what a red herring is and is a pretty subjective definition. With careful wording, nothing ever would be a red herring by that definition, since information is always being served.

However, by the Merriam Webster definition of red herrings: "something that distracts attention from the real issue", then I stand by my contention that its possible Edric Dayne's description was a momentary distraction from the "are there any hidden Targaryens?" issue.

I swear, using the term red herring this much is giving me Pup Named Scooby Doo flashbacks. :o
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If there are no red herrings then we can be confident that Riverrun's two senior guards (captain Rygar and castellan Grell) will play a part, and 12 more of Gregors men including Raff the Sweetling will get hung, because Tom 'o Sevens clearly hears Jaime's threatening demand for those men to get Rygar and Grell to Maidenpool in good shape. If there are no red herrings then Jeyne's "good" then "narrow" hips mean she's gone, and Forley Prester intentionally let Jaime believe she was still there. Moreover, the fact that Sybell wasn't warned about the Red Wedding, in addition to the substitution of Jeyne, indicate that Sybell is relatively Starkish compared to her brother Rolph. If there are no red herrings, then Tyrion must be Aegon's bastard, because why else would Jaime's mother appear to him to tell him that Tywin's greatest hate was being laughed at ... which is exactly what would have happened if it had become known that Tyrion was not his son? What else that's crucial could turn on Tywin's loathing of being laughed at? BTW, if it's no red herring, then I also think Tywin, not childbirth, killed Joanna because she was defiled and also could have let slip the truth about Tyrion.

Here's another apparent red herring: Arya's intense education in techniques of lying, and Dareon's death.

If there are no red herrings ... well, then the number of clever subplots just exceeds normal human reason.

Oh, and here's one that people effectively make out to be a red herring, because they can identify no corresponding secondary meaning: the death of Sansa's wolf Lady. The death was so high profile that it's either a serious red herring, or else I'd appreciate an idea as to its secondary meaning.

Other possible red herrings that probably aren't (so I'd like a glimpse of their secondary meaning): Syrio Forel's disappearance rather than express death; Ashara Dayne's apparent suicide; ...

Uh oh, I see that my efforts to identify potential red herrings is morphing into a list of unanswered questions. I'll leave these possible red herrings and let people get back to the main topic. Although, the conclusion that there simply aren't any kind of puts a damper on the original subject, doesn't it?
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[quote]Tywin's greatest hate was being laughed at ... which is exactly what would have happened if it had become known that Tyrion was not his son?[/quote]

He [i]was[/i] being laughed at, regardless of Tyrion's paternity.

And we do have red herrings in the series, by which I mean purposeful misdirection on GRRM's part. The death of Ser Hugh of the Vale, for example, was not in fact related to Jon Arryn's death. But Varys convinced Ned of it.
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[quote name='Ran' post='1308702' date='Apr 10 2008, 01.36']He [i]was[/i] being laughed at, regardless of Tyrion's paternity.

And we do have red herrings in the series, by which I mean purposeful misdirection on GRRM's part. The death of Ser Hugh of the Vale, for example, was not in fact related to Jon Arryn's death. But Varys convinced Ned of it.[/quote]
Although in that case it served quite effectively: character development to demonstrate the subtlety of which Varys was capable, and plot development to reveal his manipulation of Ned. Intentional misdirection by Varys isn't intentional misdirection by GRRM.
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It sure fooled a lot of readers. ;) Regardless of Varys's words, there were those who were in fact convinced by it. I think George was very aware of the fact that it'd be a fact that readers would seize on to try and resolve the mystery of Jon Arryn's death.

I don't think there's anything wrong with "red herrings". Their overuse may be a problem, but an author can and should be able to use them create the veil of mystery he wishes to create.

I wouldn't call Jon Arryn's death in and of itself a red herring, of course, since it drove so much of the plot. You might as well call the war for the Iron Throne a giant red herring, since it's not really the most important thing in the story.
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Speaking of red herrings: it seems somewhat likely that Dany is NOT the PwwP for the simple reason that Aemon stated that she is, at a time that is too early.

Against all the AA/Dany parallels and Aemon's deduction, I have only the timing of Aemon's announcement and Parris's claim: "George doesn't do obvious."

We know Dany was born on Dragonstone, sacrificed her love the third time to finally create her "weapon" the dragons, etc., but what's that against an author's right to mislead us? In fact, D=PwwP is so obvious it makes L+R=J look obscure, what with the confusion factor of Ashara.
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[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1308700' date='Apr 10 2008, 03.31']. . . Tywin's greatest hate was being laughed at ... which is exactly what would have happened if it had become known that Tyrion was not his son? What else that's crucial could turn on Tywin's loathing of being laughed at?[/quote]If Tywin could have proved that Tyrion was not his son, Tywin would have proceeded to pay his and Joanna's debts to Aerys and Tyrion in the cruelest possible way. With Aerys already dead, that debt would be paid with public humiliation for Tyrion, followed by a grisly death.

As to what else turns on Tywin hating to be laughed at, lots of things. It's one of the two core motivators of everything Tywin does: (1) a Lannister always pays his debts and (2) anyone who laughs at me owes me a debt. Who did Tywin pay for debts like that? For starters, Aerys for refusing Cersei + Rhaegar; the Reynes; the Westerlings (who then caved). Tywin's hatred of being laughed touches the plot at too many places to be written off as irrelevant.
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[quote name='Ran' post='1308717' date='Apr 10 2008, 05.09']It sure fooled a lot of readers. ;) Regardless of Varys's words, there were those who were in fact convinced by it. I think George was very aware of the fact that it'd be a fact that readers would seize on to try and resolve the mystery of Jon Arryn's death.

I don't think there's anything wrong with "red herrings". Their overuse may be a problem, but an author can and should be able to use them create the veil of mystery he wishes to create.

I wouldn't call Jon Arryn's death in and of itself a red herring, of course, since it drove so much of the plot. You might as well call the war for the Iron Throne a giant red herring, since it's not really the most important thing in the story.[/quote]


I think George has been masterful in his use of "Red Herrings" within the story. He has created several misleading avenues to create suspense and suprise. Its one of the things that keeps the story fresh and exciting.


My original thought (and narrow use of the definition of red herring) was what things through out the story are solely there for no other purpose than to mess with us the reader. This all stemmed from the [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=23711"]Jon Snow - 998th Commander thread[/url] where I got many arguments against the number having any significant meaning within the context of the story.

I guess the question comes down to what aspects of the story may go unresolved which we thought had significance within the story and really didn't. Which aspects of the story has George put in there just to stand back and go "AHA! I knew you guys would go nuts over this"

IMO, I don't think there are any "Red Herrings" based on that definition. But I do concede that George may have abandoned certain aspects of the story as the story unfolded. Gendry's tale may just be once such abandonment. Hugh's tale might be another.
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[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1308700' date='Apr 10 2008, 18.31']If there are no red herrings then we can be confident that Riverrun's two senior guards (captain Rygar and castellan Grell) will play a part, and 12 more of Gregors men including Raff the Sweetling will get hung, because Tom 'o Sevens clearly hears Jaime's threatening demand for those men to get Rygar and Grell to Maidenpool in good shape.[/quote]
What is your point here?

[quote]If there are no red herrings then Jeyne's "good" then "narrow" hips mean she's gone, and Forley Prester intentionally let Jaime believe she was still there.[/quote]
Actually, this may be a true red herring in accordance with the OP's definition. Jaime's description of Jeyne's hips serves no purpose other than to make the reader think it isn't Jeyne (even though it is). Unless it is just a mistake on GRRM's part.

[quote]Here's another apparent red herring: Arya's intense education in techniques of lying, and Dareon's death.[/quote]
What is your point here?

[quote]Oh, and here's one that people effectively make out to be a red herring, because they can identify no corresponding secondary meaning: the death of Sansa's wolf Lady. The death was so high profile that it's either a serious red herring, or else I'd appreciate an idea as to its secondary meaning.[/quote]
Lady's death served many many many purposes. E.g. To show that Robert won't stand up to Cersei. That Sansa paid dearly for lying for Joffrey instead of supporting Arya. Sansa has lost her Starkness since losing Lady. But the major point of Lady's death was that Sandor could replace Lady as Sansa's wolf.

[quote]Syrio Forel's disappearance rather than express death[/quote]
I think this may be another true red herring. Syrio is dead, but we are left believing he could have escaped.

[quote]Ashara Dayne's apparent suicide; ...[/quote]
How is this a red herring? She probably did commit suicide for grief over losing her brother and lover.
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Seems like it would take more than that. Arthur was a knight of the Kingsguard and it was wartime; the family had to know it was possible that he would die in the line of duty.

I don't think it was possible that Ashara made it to the end of the war without knowing that Ned had married. His marriage was specifically entered into to seal an anti-Targaryen alliance. This was big news and was something that the members of the alliance would have publicized (although the gossip mill would probably take care of that) in order to encourage the rebels and, perhaps, strike fear into Aerys' supporters. Ashara's family supported the Targaryens; there's no way that Arthur Dayne's sister didn't know about the alliance--and I think Arthur would have felt it his duty to let his sister know Ned had married if somehow she'd managed to miss that information.
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