Red Herrings

[vlada]

Good God,I newer thought this would happen but I agree with Ned Sand :P

[Roza Ahai]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1341541' date='May 4 2008, 08.42']Oh, for the Stranger's sake! Daeron is dead.

The kindly man is either (a) punishing this girl for killing without permission or (b) rewarding her for killing by beginning the next step in her training. I can't tell which yet, but either is a result of Daeron being dead.

The kindly man is not deceived as to whether Daeron is dead. He has blinded this girl as a result of the death, not for anything having to do with lying.

That is my 2 cents worth. Your mileage may vary.[/quote]
Why Arya told the Kindly man that she killed Daeron if she can be punished? She could simply not to tell him about his death.
He could blinded the girl to promote her to the next step of Faceless man study as a temporary method to improve her senses. Regarding lying that is my speculation.
To Blake Wizard. We also barely heard about Syrio, Ashara, Aegon. Actually, some are arguing that they probably alive.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1341661' date='May 4 2008, 09.36']What importance is there in Daeron's current state of health? Is he really that important a character? We hardly heard anything about him[/quote]
There are several reasons why whether or not Daeron is dead is important to the story.
1. If he's dead then the irregularities surrounding his death, which are pointed out above, are simply red herrings. Red herrings are the subject of this thread.
2. If he's not dead then many readers would judge Arya as being less dark and "sociopathic."
3. Conversely, if he is dead, and Arya did it, then she is surprisingly cold-blooded. That fact would go a long way to subverting the "unappreciated tomboy with a heart of gold" trope that initially characterized Arya.

But no, as I've noted more than once, we have no reason to believe that there is anything intrinsically important about Dareon as a contributor to the world of Westeros. He is, IMHO, primarily a vehicle or foil for demonstrating Arya's character development.

[ccoa]

I'm still surprised how many people find Dareon's killing more "dark" and morally ambiguous than her other killings, especially her killing of Weese, which was nearly pure, unadulterated, over-the-top vengeance. Personally, I find her execution of Dareon to be perfectly justifiable in her role as a Stark and judging by the mores of the ASoIaF world. Not comfortable by modern standards, but acceptably by the rules of the world she lives in. My personal suspicion is that she's being set up as a (well-done) anti-hero, not a villain or the tomboy with a heart of gold hero trope.

I personally don't think Dareon's alive. I think the stylistic choice of not showing Dareon's death was to show the growing distance between Arya's various identities, particularly "Arya Stark" and "No One." She's so into the role of No One, as shown by how she strips her clothes and becomes her, that she doesn't even flash back on "Arya's" memories. If his death had been shown onscreen, we wouldn't wonder why we didn't see it in retrospect.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='vlada' post='1341697' date='May 4 2008, 10.21']Good God,I newer thought this would happen but I agree with Ned Sand :P[/quote]
I drive exactly 10 over the speed limit on the freeways. I've been busted for 13 over, but cops ignore me at 10 over. Nonetheless, I know I'm pushing it a bit, so I'm always glad to see people pass me because I figure they'll draw the attention of any cops ahead.

I get the same sort of satisfaction reading your and Ned Sand's dismissal of the possibility that Dareon is still alive. Pass right on by. You probably won't get busted, but if anybody is wrong here it is necessarily you ... I have it both ways.

But since George isn't likely to mislead [i]you[/i], Dareon is even more likely dead than I previously thought. Which leaves the lying exercises, Arya's lack of passion, and the absence of explicit confirmation of Arya killing Dareon, as nothing more than red herrings. As I said.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='ccoa' post='1342031' date='May 4 2008, 18.43']I'm still surprised how many people find Dareon's killing more "dark" and morally ambiguous than her other killings, especially her killing of Weese, which was nearly pure, unadulterated, over-the-top vengeance. Personally, I find her execution of Dareon to be perfectly justifiable in her role as a Stark and judging by the mores of the ASoIaF world. Not comfortable by modern standards, but acceptably by the rules of the world she lives in. My personal suspicion is that she's being set up as a (well-done) anti-hero, not a villain or the tomboy with a heart of gold hero trope.

I personally don't think Dareon's alive. I think the stylistic choice of not showing Dareon's death was to show the growing distance between Arya's various identities, particularly "Arya Stark" and "No One." She's so into the role of No One, as shown by how she strips her clothes and becomes her, that she doesn't even flash back on "Arya's" memories. If his death had been shown onscreen, we wouldn't wonder why we didn't see it in retrospect.[/quote]
Fair point -- not many people have noted that about Weese. But GRRM had Arya repeatedly finding Weese as the greatest impediment to her escaping; further, he was very cruel, if perhaps not truly evil; and in any event she was passionate about him. She didn't personally kill him, either. Removing him as her primary gaoler was arguably reasonable, and achieved quite a lot of freedom, but for maintaining her trope it seems even more important that ordering Weese killed wasn't [i]cold-blooded[/i]. Many people find Arya's (assumed) killing of Dareon to be just too creepily devoid of both necessity and passion to remain comfortable with her in view of it.

Which is why she's either becoming an anti-hero, as you say, or else she's in for redemption ... which latter could be neatly achieved, later, by demonstrating that she didn't kill Dareon but did fool the KOM.

However, do you really think it's likely that Arya's different identities are so separated in her own mind that, as no one, she doesn't even remember a [i]killing[/i] she personally committed a few hours earlier when she was Arya Stark? She's certainly never shown that level of truly psychotic personality dissociation before, even though she's been using different false identities ever since Ned was beheaded.

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1341986' date='May 5 2008, 01.41']There are several reasons why whether or not Daeron is dead is important to the story.
1. If he's dead then the irregularities surrounding his death, which are pointed out above, are simply red herrings. Red herrings are the subject of this thread.
2. If he's not dead then many readers would judge Arya as being less dark and "sociopathic."
3. Conversely, if he is dead, and Arya did it, then she is surprisingly cold-blooded. That fact would go a long way to subverting the "unappreciated tomboy with a heart of gold" trope that initially characterized Arya.

But no, as I've noted more than once, we have no reason to believe that there is anything intrinsically important about Dareon as a contributor to the world of Westeros. He is, IMHO, primarily a vehicle or foil for demonstrating Arya's character development.[/quote]
I would disagree about Arya being cold-blooded. She is still Arya Stark, and by killing Daeron she is doing what Ned did at the start of [i]A Game of Thrones[/i]: executing the oathbreaker. Daeron has forsworn his vows and Arya is simply doing her duty as a Stark.

[ccoa]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1342170' date='May 4 2008, 21.23']Fair point -- not many people have noted that about Weese. But GRRM had Arya repeatedly finding Weese as the greatest impediment to her escaping; further, he was very cruel, if perhaps not truly evil; and in any event she was passionate about him. She didn't personally kill him, either. Removing him as her primary gaoler was arguably reasonable, and achieved quite a lot of freedom, but for maintaining her trope it seems even more important that ordering Weese killed wasn't [i]cold-blooded[/i]. Many people find Arya's (assumed) killing of Dareon to be just too creepily devoid of both necessity and passion to remain comfortable with her in view of it.[/quote]

Arya did not kill Weese because he was an obstacle to her escape (like the guard at the gate, which is also arguably disturbing), but because he smacked her and didn't give her the dinner he promised her. A pretty shallow reason for murder. The fact that it would later help her escape doesn't have any bearing on her actual motivations at the time. Also, directing someone else to do your killing for you does not absolve you of responsibility - if you order a murder, then you are a murderer.

I agree with Black Wizard about Dareon - it was, as I said, an execution. Arya, is, as far as she and most of the rest of the world knows, the last living Stark who is not wanted for treason and regicide. That makes her the heir to Winterfell (thus the fake Arya getting married off to the Boltons). It is her responsibility to enforce the laws of the North, really. I found it no more or less disturbing than Ned's execution of the NW deserter in GoT.

I'm not saying she doesn't [i]remember[/i] the killing (that would be patently undefendable, given that she tells the old man what happened), I'm saying that she's not reliving the details where we, the audience, can see them, thus emphasizing the growing disconnect between Arya Stark and No One.

[the silent speaker]

I agree that the killing of Weese was nearly as bad as the killing of Dareon, maybe just as. But I disagree that she was 'just executing the oathbreaker'. Arya was not acting with the power and implied authority of Winterfell at her back, and she didn't give him a trial for desertion. (Gared, IIRC, got a trial offscreen, but we only saw the execution.) And I don't think she knows about the Purple Wedding and Tyrion's trial, nor Sansa's marriage to him, and for that matter I don't think Sansa was even attainted for that. Cersei would kill her given a quarter of a chance, but legally she still is Robb's heir.

Arya has always been Arya Of House Stark in the House of Black and White, not because of fulfilling any 'Starkish duties' (there is no such duty to chew one's lip while thinking) but because they are big on correct identity there and that defines hers; it's who she is. The FM training is designed to wean a person away from that root identity to the point that they shed it completely, so they allow her to tell them that she's no one; in so doing, she's also telling herself that no one is who she ought to be, and eventually she will reach the point of believing it. And eventually-after-that, she will start believing that no one is who she is. So they allow or encourage that, noting to her (and mainly for her benefit) that it is still a lie, but not because of being fooled or any such thing. On the contrary, the whole point (and IMO the culmination of the Faceless story line) is that there [i]is[/i] no schizophrenic No One there, only a girl who might like to be no one but has not shed Arya of House Stark.

Accordingly I think that her telling the Faceless Man that Arya killed Dareon was an admission, no more and no less; and that she did it because [i]she[/i] said so, not some mystical spirit of northerliness. (To the Faceless Man this was a step back bcause, while he knew she was still herself in her heart, he had thought that she had relinquished all her past as definitive material -- "that girl had left Braavos".) He was disappointed in her -- for the first time that we see, "Who are you? No one" was a "sad, pathetic little lie" -- and had her blinded. He did that because she told the truth. I'm quite sure that if Arya had lied to him about who killed Dareon, he would have killed her.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='ccoa' post='1343145' date='May 5 2008, 12.54']Arya did not kill Weese because he was an obstacle to her escape (like the guard at the gate, which is also arguably disturbing), but because he smacked her and didn't give her the dinner he promised her. A pretty shallow reason for murder.[/quote]
I think the circumstances were more compelling than you allow. Here are some relevant passages. Cites are to ACOK pb (BantamSpectra, 9/2000).

Weese is introduced p 421: "... all I want to smell [on you] is fear." p. 457 ... nearly as scary as Ser Gregor ... Weese always knew [who, where, even what she's thinking] ... hit at the slightest provocation ... set his dog on a latrine cleaner, dog tore chunk from boy's calf and Weese laughed. With that justification, she put him on her "to kill" list - at a time when it was just a wish list. In Weese's favor, he warns Arya not to insult the Bloody Mummers p.460. Next she spends a lot of time trying to think how to escape, at first mostly looking for help, e.g. p. 461-2. She's afraid to try to escape b/c of Weese's seeming omniscience and his threats to have Vargo Hoat cut off her feet, p. 548. Later she again gives up other plans to escape for fear of Weese and his threats, p. 551; then he slaps her for not being quick enough to bring a sword, threatens to beat her bloody if she doesn't run for the next task, p. 552. He also abuses her further after that, but by then she'd already whispered his name to Jaqen. She'd had him on her list for some time, and it appears that the most recurring reasons, which appear to cause her to select him for execution over others on her list, are his persistent cruelty and that her fear of him precludes her escape.

IMHO, GRRM provides ample justification for Arya killing Weese: first, his completely unwarranted cruelty, which she could neither avoid nor ignore; second, and GRRM underscores this twice, Weese used his convincing viciousness to effectively bar her escape; and all this he does as a steward of her family's enemy in the war, the Lannisters.

The passages above (particularly pp. 548, 551) contradict your assertion that escape was not part of her motivation at the time:
[quote name='ccoa' post='1343145' date='May 5 2008, 12.54']The fact that it would later help her escape doesn't have any bearing on her actual motivations at the time. Also, directing someone else to do your killing for you does not absolve you of responsibility - if you order a murder, then you are a murderer.[/quote]
I entirely grant you that she was responsible. She knew it would happen - Chiswyck was already dead. But it's [i]easier [/i]to order a killing than to do it yourself, as she is assumed to have done with Dareon.

[quote name='ccoa' post='1343145' date='May 5 2008, 12.54']It is her responsibility to enforce the laws of the North, really. I found it no more or less disturbing than Ned's execution of the NW deserter in GoT.[/quote]I had a similar reaction, and argued similarly against the many posters who found an 11-year old in Braavos taking on the duties of the Lord of Winterfell to kill a man herself, without any significant personal animus, and only a technical justification for his death (i.e., he isn't hurting anybody, let alone her) to be extraordinarily cold-blooded. A lot of people argue that she's become sociopathic. It is undeniable that for many people, killing Dareon subverted Arya's good-hearted tomboy trope and made her less sympathetic.

Also, your judgment of Arya's previous killings was harsher than mine, so you naturally are less surprised about Dareon. As I explained above, I found her previous killings easier to justify with one combination or another of the needs of the prisoner of war and/or the evil of the victim. I find no cruelty or apparent evil in Dareon, or any compelling need on Arya's part for his death. True, as an oathbreaker he "deserved" death. Arya didn't know she was the heir to Winterfell, and at 11 it certainly wasn't incumbent on her to enforce the law of Westeros. Killing Dareon was justified, but most found it by far her coldest killing. It was more difficult to achieve, if she did it by herself, requiring more effort, yet it was done with less provocation. It just doesn't add up for me.

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1343607' date='May 5 2008, 18.34']... I'm quite sure that if Arya had lied to him about who killed Dareon, he would have killed her.[/quote]
Really! He's been actively teaching her to lie, but he'd kill her if she lied to him? That seems odd to me.

So many posters will be embarrassed if Arya didn't kill Dareon as most suppose (and as is likely).

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

Why should anyone be embarrassed?

Yes, this murder did make Arya less sympathetic to some readers (my guess is, it's in part because we didn't see her doubting, or having any inner turmoil about killing someone - perhaps she had it, but we only see her calmly annoucing her deed.) but I don't see it as a reason to make this situation a fake out. Martin doesn't pull punches, and keeping his characters univerally liked doesn't seem his top priority, which I respect. People rarely get to keep their hands clean in this series. Arya's transformation seem less about being spunky tomboy and more about real ramifications of a child leading the life she had and seeing things she did.
To me so far, killing a guard seem coldest of her deeds, although it proved to be right move. Unless I am missing something (which is entirely possible), wasn't he even working for a man who was then her brother's ally?

[the silent speaker]

Depends what she lied to him [i]about[/i]. And anyway, he's actively teaching her to distinguish lies from truth, not to lie as such. Beside, it's so often the case that when you're mentored in the ways of an evil mastermind, there's the implicit caveat of "don't use your powers against [i]me[/i], only against others."

Definitely Arya has plenty of reason to kill Weese, but the trigger was the capon.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='Cruella_Da_Oz' post='1344386' date='May 6 2008, 08.35']Why should anyone be embarrassed?

Yes, this murder did make Arya less sympathetic to some readers (my guess is, it's in part because we didn't see her doubting, or having any inner turmoil about killing someone - perhaps she had it, but we only see her calmly annoucing her deed.) but I don't see it as a reason to make this situation a fake out. Martin doesn't pull punches, and keeping his characters univerally liked doesn't seem his top priority, which I respect. People rarely get to keep their hands clean in this series. Arya's transformation seem less about being spunky tomboy and more about real ramifications of a child leading the life she had and seeing things she did.
To me so far, killing a guard seem coldest of her deeds, although it proved to be right move. Unless I am missing something (which is entirely possible), wasn't he even working for a man who was then her brother's ally?[/quote]
Embarrassed, if Dareon didn't die in the manner Arya claimed, because they swallowed the bait hook, line and sinker: they have categorically denied the possibility that GRRM is misleading them. Given the number of times he has fooled them before in this very series, it's the "mule kicks me twice, shame on me" thing. I can't imagine why anyone would have the temerity to announce with no reservations that GRRM is not painting a picture that is other than as it seems.

I agree (FWIW) with your comments about GRRM. My point has always been, simply, that there are hints that permit the facts to be other than as Arya presented them (coldest of Arya's killings, first time a killing done by her hand but not confirmed, and express training in how to lie effectively). Those are either hints for the wary that GRRM is going to pull the rug out, or else they are red herrings. If they are red herrings, they are noteworthy in this thread. If they are hints, then those who dismiss them in view of GRRM's cleverness deserve to be embarrassed if the circumstances are in fact a deception.

While GRRM needn't care that his characters be universally liked, this still seems to be the story of the Stark family against a backdrop of earthshaking events. Most people who care about these characters want them to ultimately survive with dignity, honor, and decency intact. Maybe, as you seem to suggest, Arya's spunky tomboy charm is being sacrificed to reflect the realities of what such traumatic circumstances may do, or perhaps to serve other plot purposes; either would amount to an interesting subversion of the trope. But it is also quite possible that GRRM will substantially redeem Arya to "our" good graces. Negating her killing of Dareon would help with that.

I agree that killing the guard - one of Bolton's, so yes, a nominal ally - was cold, but at least it was reasonably necessary to her escaping Harrenhal before she was handed over to Vargo Hoat, of whom she was justifiably terrified ... thus reasonably necessary to her personal survival in view of the vagaries of the war. Dareon, OTOH, posed no threat to her whatsoever. If she killed him, it was as an impartial "enforcer" of Westerosi rules.

I'm by no means saying she didn't kill Dareon, only that if she did it was a significant extension of the range of grounds on which she would personally kill somebody (not merely consider it). It's not contrary to her nature, but since the killing wasn't confirmed (when it could easily have been), this significant extension of her willingness to take a life is further grounds for suspicion about the facts of the incident.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1344600' date='May 6 2008, 11.13']... And anyway, he's actively teaching her to distinguish lies from truth, not to lie as such. ...[/quote]
I think you're mistaken. Cites are to AFFC hb 11/05.
p. 315 (KOM): "You lie. Worse, you lie [i]poorly[/i]. Who are you?" - "No one." - "Another lie." He sighed. [point: repeated lying to him elicits only a sigh; he expressly puts more importance on the quality of the lie.]
The KOM sets the waif as her teacher, p. 322.
"You lie," said the waif. "You must lie gooder. ... I will show you." The next day they began the lying game (p. 323+, lengthy passage).
Then, shortly before Arya's declaration about killing Dareon, she is again playing the lying game with the waif (p. 517), including subtle differences between exaggeration, untruth, and even lying about lying. In a related skill, Arya is trying to make her face her servant.
Finally, when she is telling the KOM that Arya did this thing, she is watching his eyes, mouth, the muscles of his jaw ... just as she was doing with the waif. p. 518

I think that evidence supports the following conclusions: 1) Lying to the KOM is not inherently a big deal. 2) Lying well is an important skill, one of several in which Arya is being expressly trained (yes, teaching effective lying [i]as such[/i]). 3) Arya was trying to determine what the KOM believed.

These are either hints (given the lack of POV confirmation) that the Dareon incident wasn't truthfully reported, or else they're good examples of red herrings.