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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] "New" POV 1 - Spoilers for ADwD

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What if Ramsay himself doesnt know whether he's marrying the real Arya Stark?

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[quote name='Besselfunction' post='1322912' date='Apr 21 2008, 14.00']What if Ramsay himself doesnt know whether he's marrying the real Arya Stark?[/quote]

For Ramsay's purposes, it doesn't really matter whether she's the real Arya Stark or not. Unless Jon decides to come a'calling (and I think that's highly unlikely), nobody's going to say openly that Jeyne Poole is anything other than Arya Stark, the trueborn daughter of Winterfell. I don't think we can accuse Ramsay of sentimentality in this regard.

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[quote name='Besselfunction' post='1322912' date='Apr 21 2008, 12.00']What if Ramsay himself doesnt know whether he's marrying the real Arya Stark?[/quote]


Actually, that would work! Maybe Roose knows, but he gets killed before telling Ramsey.

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I was considering this, actually. There's no real reason that Ramsay need know about it, I suppose.

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[quote name='Turinqui Calima' post='1321627' date='Apr 20 2008, 12.17']Oh, just wanted to add that the full phrase Ramsey says about the trip is "I ride to war, Reek. And you will be comming with me, to help me fetch home my virgin bride".

Sounds like a lot of things can go wrong during such a trip. I kind of reacted to the "I ride to war".[/quote]
One obvious reason to bring Theon, of all people, "to war" with him is for some sort of stratagem or emissary against the remaining Ironborn garrison of Moat Cailin. They might have a hard time recognizing him at first, but there would be an intimidation value: 'this is what's going to happen to [i]you[/i]'.

OTOH, isn't the garrison so tiny at this point that there's hardly any point in being so sneaky? Maybe there is because MC is so hard to take, and the Ironmen will be much warier than the Northmen that they took it from were.

If Ramsay does indeed have plans to kill his father, he'd be smart not to use Dreadfort men, since their loyalty to Roose would be greater than their loyalty to him. But is Theon physically and spiritually up to playing the role of assassin? He doesn't sound good for much of anything just now.

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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1322962' date='Apr 21 2008, 14.19']One obvious reason to bring Theon, of all people, "to war" with him is for some sort of stratagem or emissary against the remaining Ironborn garrison of Moat Cailin. They might have a hard time recognizing him at first, but there would be an intimidation value: 'this is what's going to happen to [i]you[/i]'.

OTOH, isn't the garrison so tiny at this point that there's hardly any point in being so sneaky? Maybe there is because MC is so hard to take, and the Ironmen will be much warier than the Northmen that they took it from were.[/quote]

That makes more sense than the idea that Theon is needed to 'confirm' fake-Arya's identity. Although it doesn't explain why Ramsay is being coy around the other nothern lords; why not just say that, if that's what he has in mind.

[quote]If Ramsay does indeed have plans to kill his father, he'd be smart not to use Dreadfort men, since their loyalty to Roose would be greater than their loyalty to him. But is Theon physically and spiritually up to playing the role of assassin? He doesn't sound good for much of anything just now.[/quote]

His physical constitution can be improved somewhat once Ramsay starts to actually feed him. I wouldn't expect much of Theon's strength of character (never his strong suit), but I think it's reasonable for Ramsay to believe that Theon's constant terror will keep him in line, particularly if Theon is given some hope of reprieve once the deed is done. (That hope might be as simple as, once you kill my father, I'll kill you quickly and you won't have to suffer any more.)

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Things aint looking good for poor Theon. How exacly did his hair turn white? It sounds like hes aged about forty years.

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1322817' date='Apr 21 2008, 13.15']Benjen:

Theon is well-known and infamous in the north [i]for being a betrayer and a turncloak whose oaths count for nothing[/i]. I wouldn't use John Walker Lindh as a reference at a job interview, and I wouldn't use Theon to give my realm legitimacy. I'm genuinely surprised that people can't see the problem here.[/quote]
OK, OK, I agree Theon is not the guy any sane person would use to give credence to his claims.

Theon being used as a catspaw for killing Lord Roose is a really interesting notion. Not sure how good Theon is with a bow at this point, but I suppose it's doable.

Ramsay said he's going to war, so perhaps he is hoping to use Theon some other way. As leverage against the garrison at Moat Cailin (like the Frey's did with Edmure at Riverrun)? Ramsay could plan to execute him in front of the remaining Northern Lords and his new bride to prove his commitment? Edited by Benjen

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[quote name='Wrex' post='1323000' date='Apr 21 2008, 14.40']Things aint looking good for poor Theon. How exacly did his hair turn white? It sounds like hes aged about forty years.[/quote]

I think it had something to do with the malnutrition and general situation. He had been down there for months (has an pretty gross beard too) and at one point wonders if it might have been years and he lost them in maddness, but it couldn't have been, he realizes, when he sees that the Walders are still boys, then he thinks again, maybe they are the children of the boys he once knew.

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[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1323022' date='Apr 21 2008, 19.48']I think it had something to do with the malnutrition and general situation. He had been down there for months (has an pretty gross beard too) and at one point wonders if it might have been years and he lost them in maddness, but it couldn't have been, he realizes, when he sees that the Walders are still boys, then he thinks again, maybe they are the children of the boys he once knew.[/quote]

Oh yes :lol: It seems I've forgotten what no food and stress can do to you.

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Maybe he took him along because he wishes to continue flaying him.Seems he rather enjoys such sports :)

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[quote]One obvious reason to bring Theon, of all people, "to war" with him is for some sort of stratagem or emissary against the remaining Ironborn garrison of Moat Cailin. They might have a hard time recognizing him at first, but there would be an intimidation value: 'this is what's going to happen to you'.

OTOH, isn't the garrison so tiny at this point that there's hardly any point in being so sneaky? Maybe there is because MC is so hard to take, and the Ironmen will be much warier than the Northmen that they took it from were.[/quote]

I thought that it was pretty easy to take MC from the North, does Catelyn not mention that in the first book because she thinks that it is almost impossible to take it from the South. I wouldn't see it as a reason to use Theon anyway, why not use a captive who looks even worse than Theon if you are trying to scare someone?

Also everyone believed that Theon Turncloak killed Bran and Rickon when he said he did, but there was no proof that the bodies were the Stark kids; why would this be any different other than the Stark kid in question is living this time rather than dead?

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1322817' date='Apr 21 2008, 13.15']Benjen:

Theon is well-known and infamous in the north [i]for being a betrayer and a turncloak whose oaths count for nothing[/i]. I wouldn't use John Walker Lindh as a reference at a job interview, and I wouldn't use Theon to give my realm legitimacy. I'm genuinely surprised that people can't see the problem here.[/quote]

Ahh. I see what you're getting at now. I assumed Ramsay was bringing Theon to tell HIM if it was really Arya; he has reason to believe Theon knows Arya and that he is scared enough of Ramsay to tell him the truth. Ramsay doesn't need Theon to assert some sort of oath so he can lay claim over the North. The people in King's Landing have already proclaimed her Arya, and Roose is Warden of the North. His seat is secure whether she's the real Arya or not. I assumed he just wanted to know for himself. Edited by Bran's Muffin

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[quote name='Loras' post='1323061' date='Apr 21 2008, 15.02']Also everyone believed that Theon Turncloak killed Bran and Rickon when he said he did, but there was no proof that the bodies were the Stark kids; why would this be any different other than the Stark kid in question is living this time rather than dead?[/quote]

They were the right age and body type, they were displayed in their own clothing and produced after an extensive search for Bran and Rickon, and the two boys were not publicly seen thereafter. What's more, nobody at Winterfell--not even Maester Luwin--disputed that they were dead. Westeros doesn't have CSI; they make do with what they have, and the evidence on offer seemed to be enough. It wasn't simply Theon's word.

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1322817' date='Apr 21 2008, 13.15']Benjen:

Theon is well-known and infamous in the north [i]for being a betrayer and a turncloak whose oaths count for nothing[/i]. I wouldn't use John Walker Lindh as a reference at a job interview, and I wouldn't use Theon to give my realm legitimacy. I'm genuinely surprised that people can't see the problem here.[/quote]

While Theon's word isn't in good standing with Northerners right now, certain things can't be disputed with using him:
1. They all know he is Theon Greyjoy
2. They all know that he would know Arya Stak
3. He says this girl is her

No northern lord is going to know Kyra or Palla or _____ from the Winterfell staff it might as well be Ramsay's mom saying the girl is Arya and no one could tell. Sure they know Theon is scum and will see he's been tortured but having him add his word is likey a little better than no word or word from a nobody. Edited by cybroleach

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[quote name='cybroleach' post='1323092' date='Apr 21 2008, 15.16']Sure they know Theon is scum and will see he's been tortured but having him add his word is likey a little better than no word or word from a nobody.[/quote]

I'm not sure I follow. The northern lords will forget that he's a notorious oathbreaker whose word can't be trusted, and that as a hostage he has every reason to lie (to save himself further torture), and give him any credence at all because... why, exactly? Because they've _heard_ of him? That's preposterous.

In any case, the northern lords will publicly state that fake-Arya is the genuine article to the extent that it benefits them. The fate of Stannis' story about Joffrey should prove instructive: Olenna and Margaery know full well that Tommen is illegitimate, and that doesn't cause an annulment because it wouldn't serve Tyrell interests. They won't need the word of an oathbreaker to convince them to go along; the political situation as they understand will guide them one way or another.. Edited by The Fat Man

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I think that Ramsay isn't bring Theon along as some kind of proof for Arya, but rather as a tool for him. Theon has knowledge of court at Winterfell. Theon is going to be Ramsay's tool, so that he can probalby try and outwit his father.

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I like the idea that Ramsey wants Theon to verify Arya's identity for his own reasons. He is no stranger to inentity duplicity - he once wore the name "Reek" himself and he was responsible for substituting the two innkeepers? boys for Bran and Rickon. We also do not know just how much he trusts his father.

Who better for him to verify Arya than a "disposable" Theon.

I am not saying that he would refuse a fake Arya, but he would surely want to know how far he could go with her.

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Not to mention that Theon has a good deal of knowledge about the North, and proved to have some cleverness with his Winterfell plan. Has Ramsay been all across the North, does he know it as well as Theon?

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B's M & wvlr:

Why would it matter to Ramsay whether or not his bride was really Arya Stark or not? She serves the same purpose either way.

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