Cricket 3

[Paxter]

[quote name='SirRots' post='1378595' date='Jun 1 2008, 06.05']It all came down to in the end to the lack of competition in the England scene while Australians always have someone nipping at the heels.[/quote]

That is spot on. Take, for example, Phil Jaques. He has had only 3 innings in this West Indies series so far but I think he is already under pressure. If he scores a lot less runs than Katich over the course of this series, Katich and Hayden will be Australia's test openers next time around.

Contrast this to, say, Andrew Strauss, who fell into a really bad form slump but was still able to force his way back into the team because there was no-one else to step into the breach.

[Jeor]

It works for Australia, but that sort of selection pressure can go wrong in other ways - eg Ramprakash and Hick, who were always in and out of the team and never became the batsmen they were in first-class cricket. This was probably caused by them fearing the drop and never getting an extended run.

I really think some of it is to do with the nature of first-class cricket in both countries. First-class cricket in Australia is a tough sell; you don't play nearly as many matches as the English county cricket scene, and generally in Australia, state cricket falls under the radar. It's not a full-time job - you get paid a small retainer but the majority of your income comes from match fees - and you will find that almost all first-class cricketers in Australia are either full-time studying or working. While he was playing for New South Wales and before he became an international cricketer, Brett Lee worked at a menswear shop that my dad used to go to every now and then. Stuart Clark was studying for his business and law exams while he was playing state cricket. The state cricket scene in Australia has plenty of turnover because people play a few seasons, realise they aren't going to get picked for the national team, and then move on with their lives (or go back to playing simple grade cricket for their local club, which is less of a commitment training-wise and more fun).

Contrast this with the county scene in England. You have matches and tournaments galore, you get a hefty guaranteed contract and you don't have to work any other jobs. Your cricket club is essentially your life for those years that you're playing in the first-class system. Good performers become local heroes and life is good; life is cricket.

Now you'd think that means that England produce people who live and breathe cricket, and who would be really good at it. I think it works in reverse, though. County cricket is too comfortable. Only a completely dedicated and driven person (or a complete loony) would play years of state cricket in Australia. Only the very best - international players - can make a living out of playing cricket in Australia so you're either gunning for that, or you might as well be spending all that time training and playing on the weekend doing something else more profitable.

I'm not suggesting that cricketers in Australia care more than their English counterparts; Englishmen take tremendous pride in playing for their country. It's just that in Australia, if you want to make a living from playing cricket you have to be aiming for the sky, whereas in England you can slip into a nice comfort zone with a county contract.

[Paxter]

Well it looks like our earlier discussion about whether or not Casson should be thrown into test cricket has been answered for us. MacGill has announced his retirement effective at the end of the current test match. So I imagine Casson will be handed his debut in the next game. It'll be interesting to see how he goes.

Just to reflect on MacGill's career - he was one of the best spin bowlers of the modern era. In fact he is probably the best in the moderen leg-spinner after Warne and Kumble. I will miss his big-turning wrong'uns and leggies.

[Jeor]

By all accounts (I haven't seen the match live), MacGill has been bowling absolutely terribly and serving up at least 2-3 bad balls every over if not more. He probably saw the writing on the wall. It's a real shame for him that his career was alongside Shane Warne's, when you consider he would have been the first spinner in any other international team - at times, India included. MacGill had an awesome strike rate and we saw him in full action for that year that Warne was out, and the Australian spin bowling scene didn't miss a beat. He turned the ball more than Warne and had a better wrong-un, too.

As it is, putting in a new, untested spinner may not be a bad idea at this point in time. He'll be inexperienced (most likely Casson) but the dodgy pitches of the Caribbean against a fragile West Indian batting lineup is probably one of the kinder ways to introduce yourself to the international game.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Jeor' post='1379667' date='Jun 2 2008, 16.00']when you consider he would have been the first spinner in any other international team - at times, India included.[/quote]

I agree. I think you can make the case that MacGill is actually a better leg-spinner than Anil Kumble. MacGill serves up more bad deliveries than Kumble, but he also produces more unplayable deliveries. However, Anil Kumble's sheer number of wickets coupled with his handy batting and ODI experience mean that he will go down as one of the greatest players of all time, while MacGill would be lucky to make the Top 100.

Now that the IPL is over: what did people think of it? Was it a success? How can it be improved?

Personally, I think it was way too long.

On the positive side, the IPL has unearthed some great talent. Players like McCullum, Watson, S Tanvir, Raina, Marsh, Y Pathan, Bandrinath, Jadeja, Pomersbach and Ghony have really announced themselves on the world stage. It has also been great to watch aging stars like Jayasuriya, Pollock and Gilchrist show that they've still got what it takes to compete.

[Sir Thursday]

I notice the Windies only need 100 more to win, with Chanderpaul at the crease (admittedly their tail didn't fare too well in the first innings). Any chance of an upset, you think? Looks like Sarwan had a good knock...Ponting perhaps regretting declaring?


Sir Thursday


EDIT: Never mind, they ran out of time and it was a draw.

[Jeor]

Well the way Chanderpaul's batting, all he needs is for someone to stick with him, and Sarwan did this time. Sarwan has been the main culprit in the underachieving Windies batting lineup, so it was good for them that he stood up when they needed him. On paper the lineup has a lot of potential; a healthy, attacking Gayle at the top, an in-form Sarwan at No.3, and Chanderpaul and Bravo lower down the order to pull them out of any trouble.

[Stubby]

[quote name='Jeor' post='1382776' date='Jun 4 2008, 13.21']Well the way Chanderpaul's batting, all he needs is for someone to stick with him, and Sarwan did this time. Sarwan has been the main culprit in the underachieving Windies batting lineup, so it was good for them that he stood up when they needed him. On paper the lineup has a lot of potential; a healthy, attacking Gayle at the top, an in-form Sarwan at No.3, and Chanderpaul and Bravo lower down the order to pull them out of any trouble.[/quote]

Haven't they been a 'good team on paper' with 'a lot of potential' for just a tad too long now?

The decline of the Windies has been the most depressing thing (to me) about world cricket for many years now. Seeing the empty Viv Richards stadium on monday night, as opposed to images of tests in the 70's and 80's was heartbreaking. I'd love to see them regain the flair and fire they had 20-30 years ago - it would be great for cricket.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Ser Stubby' post='1382815' date='Jun 4 2008, 14.06']Haven't they been a 'good team on paper' with 'a lot of potential' for just a tad too long now?[/quote]

Not really. I think that their bowling line-up has had very little potential for very long periods (especially when players like Collymore, Dillon and Collins were spearheading their attack). It is only in relatively recent times, with the arrival of Taylor and Edwards that their bowling attack has shown some signs of improvement. And their current attack will never look good on paper without a decent spinner.

The WI batting line-up does not look that great on paper at all. No solid opening partnership. A number four that averages 22 in test matches (Morton). A number 6 that is averaging below 35. No wicketkeeper that can bat. A very shoddy lower order compared to say, New Zealand or Australia.

So to answer your question: no they haven't shown 'a lot of potential' for a tad too long. Only in very recent times have they shown any sort of potential at all IMO. And they have a long way to go. In addition, I don't think they are a team who 'look good on paper' but fail to perform well enough consistently (like, for example, England). They are just not a very good team.

Edit: but I wish they were a good team! I too would love to see a revival in WI cricket.

[Stubby]

Paxter,

I agree with you about the bowling attack. I wasn't clear but I was only addressing the batting.

[Daeric]

I have to say that Sharwan stumping was near impossible to call, first few viewings it looked like he hadn't made it back then it started to look like he managed to sneak his toes in just. I wouldn't have wanted to call that one.

On the highlights I saw Macgill looked ancient through that might have just being the shaved head adding on alot of years.

[Paxter]

[quote name='SirRots' post='1382909' date='Jun 4 2008, 16.14']On the highlights I saw Macgill looked ancient through that might have just being the shaved head adding on alot of years.[/quote]

Yeah, his retirement came as no surpise to me after seeing that haircut.

[Stubby]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1382915' date='Jun 4 2008, 16.19']Yeah, his retirement came as no surpise to me after seeing that haircut.[/quote]

:lol:

[Jeor]

The thing about a Windies revival is that whatever progress is made in the next couple of years will probably be pegged back again when Chanderpaul retires. He's the only world-class batsman in the lineup. Gayle, Sarwan and Bravo have shown that they belong in international cricket but they aren't top-flight batsmen - Chanderpaul's the only one who satisfies that criteria. While he's there they have something to build on, but I don't see anyone stepping up to replace him.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Jeor' post='1382973' date='Jun 4 2008, 18.02']Gayle, Sarwan and Bravo have shown that they belong in international cricket but they aren't top-flight batsmen - Chanderpaul's the only one who satisfies that criteria. While he's there they have something to build on, but I don't see anyone stepping up to replace him.[/quote]

That's right. Chanderpaul's averages over 100 in the last 12 months of test cricket. Take him out of the line-up and the Windies' average total in tests would be pathetic.

I hope the WI cricket board haven't lost Brian Lara's phone number...they might need it when Chanderpaul retires.

[Jeor]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1383040' date='Jun 4 2008, 21.44']I hope the WI cricket board haven't lost Brian Lara's phone number...they might need it when Chanderpaul retires.[/quote]

Nah, all they have to do is ring up Jimmy Adams and hope they get the first-16-Tests version of him (average 80) rather than the strokeless wonder he became afterwards. ;) That being said, even Jimmy Adams at his worst would be a better fighter than some of the current Windies batsmen. It's not just the great bowling days that are over - the days of the fearsome batting lineup are gone too. While it's unfair to say that the team should keep on churning out greats like Viv Richards or Brian Lara, during those days there was still a supporting cast of excellent batsmen around that great strokemaker - Richie Richardson, Desmond Haynes, an in-form Adams. And if you go back to the era before then, Greenidge, Lloyd and Logie rounded out a very stable lineup. Some of the current crop - like Morton - lack the grit to tough it out and concentrate when things aren't going so well.

Just looking at Casson's player page on cricinfo to remind myself of what he was like, and I think I mentioned this a while ago, but it makes for very sober reading. 107 wickets in 40 first-class matches at an average of 40 and an economy rate of 3.54. That's a terrible bowling record in first-class cricket, and barely over 2.5 wickets per match. Granted the first-class game in Australia isn't kind to spinners and that spinners as a breed mature late in their careers, but that's not the record of someone who you want to be your leading slow bowler right now. He can bat (average 24) but Australia need an out-and-out spinner. He might go well against this fragile Windies lineup with lots of support from the pace attack, but still, that record doesn't inspire much confidence when the circumstances aren't so much in his favour.

[Hereward]

Don't worry too much about being short a decent spinner for the England tour. After all, the one spinner's wicket in England (Old Trafford, where Monty has taken 25 wickets in the last three matches), where England also have their best record, is being dropped from the Test match venue list from next year.

Sometimes, I dream of an ECB meeting, a sub-machine-gun and the words "before turning the gun on himself".

[Paxter]

[quote name='Jeor' post='1383168' date='Jun 4 2008, 21.13']That's a terrible bowling record in first-class cricket, and barely over 2.5 wickets per match.[/quote]

I agree. It's not a great record at all. Although to be fair to him, he probably played quite a lot of games at the WACA, which has never been kind to leg-spin bowlers (even Warnie struggled at the WACA).

Do you think that McGain might be able to force his way in to the team if Casson fails miserably? Or will the selectors resort to a more defensive off-spin bowler like a Doherty or Dan Cullen. Or will Australia play a pace-only attack?

BTW Herekleides, Aussies should be worried about being short a decent spinner for the England tour. The England spinner might actually out-bowl the Aussie one! God forbid!

[Daeric]

Well Collingwood proved yet again that hes not in any kind of form. He really should have gone and got that shoulder surgery because at the moment hes being worthless and shock horror Bopara is breathing down his neck.

[Maltaran]

I'm a little surprised no one's posted anything about the Kiwis' fancy new ball-buffing trousers yet. Perfect for commentators' double entendres!