Dune: The Original Novel

[petec]

After a few attempts a while back, I finally read [i]Dune[/i] about two years ago. Dune is the type of sf story I really enjoy because it deals with issues other then [i]big ideas[/i] and super-duper technology. In fact, I thought its somewhat low-tech approach was quite refreshing. I agree that it's a sf classic.

What I remember liking the most was the intrigue between the Atreides, the Harkonens, the Emperor and the Bene Gesserit. Even though it was short on details, I was also very interested in the universe's back history. And of course, Arakkis' ecology was fascinating.

I went on to read the next two books which I also thought were pretty good. [i]The Children of Dune[/i] seemed like a good ending, so I decided to stop there. I'm not sure if I'll read the further books, but I know I'll at least give Dune a re-read soon.

[ThRiNiDiR]

I actually enjoyed Herbert's Jr. lighter space opera take on Dune universe more than the original Dune novel (read only the first). :blush:

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

MM,

[quote name='Mister Manticore' post='1322192' date='Apr 20 2008, 23.02']The pre-quel books are at least half-way entertaining, but only that.[/quote]

I continue to refuse to believe those books exist.

DF,

I loved Dune with the exception of God Emperor, however, I'm planning to reread that one to reevaluate my stance.

[Insert Edit]

[quote name='Zap Rowsdower' post='1322257' date='Apr 21 2008, 01.15']The sequels co-authored by Anderson were better than the originals.[/quote]

Surely you jest?

[Insert Edit]

[quote name='Isis' post='1322356' date='Apr 21 2008, 05.37']I'm going to ask this question for the last time on this board and see if anyone here knows the answer:

Was [b]Dune Messiah[/b] intended by Herbert to form one book along with [b]Dune[/b]? I read that the publishers thought it would have made too depressing an ending (to the first book).[/quote]

[url="http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/ch09.html"]http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/ch09.html[/url]

[quote]In order to answer those questions, it is necessary to understand that the second and third books were an essential part of Herbert's original conception. The Dune trilogy is really a single novel that grew so comprehensive that it took twenty years and three volumes to write. Herbert recalls his dilemma while writing Dune:[/quote]

I've also read that the publisher wanted the novels split up...

[Merentha]

This is probably the first place I've seen where I haven't been the only person in love with the series. I absolutely love the worldbuilding, so much so that I got irritated at the damn plot that kept getting in the way of telling me more about the world. The most egregious examples involve the Missionaria Protectiva references. Every time they come up, I want to hear about how they got inserted into the Fremen culture, how they've changed over the years, and so forth. Instead, they get used as a ham-handed way for Paul to not die. The Missionaria Protectiva basically pops up every time Paul or Jessica can't save themselves and, for all intents and purposes, would be identical to a deity appearing and mandating that the main characters don't die.

Also, Paul irritates me so damn much. In the first book, he's perfect. Not only that, we're flat-out told he's perfect. Every damn thought Jessica has about him sounds something like "Jessica was terrified/awed/cowed/proud by the depth and awesome power of her son's insight/potential/power." He's fifteen, but damned if I ever believed that. At least [i]Ender's Game[/i] made the Ãœbermenschen children seem somewhat like kids, not adults who happen to be fifteen so we can all marvel at their awesomeness.

The political scene, too, was more interesting than Paul's ascendancy from protodeity to deity, which doesn't help me enjoy the book. I shouldn't get frustrated every time the protagonist appears on a page, but that's what Paul did to me. The Fremen, too, had the same level of overpowered irritation going on. We're told throughout the book that the Sardaukar are terrifying foes, but we never, ever see that. Instead, their skill is used entirely to show how even more inexplicably powerful at fighting the Fremen are. Their culture and technology were more interesting to me than how zomg-power-over-9000! fighting prowess, but again that is skirted by the author.

In summary, the entire book frustrates the hell out of me. He's got an interesting premise, a [i]very[/i] interesting world (both the universe and Arrakis), interesting culture sets, and can write fairly well. The he fucks it up with Paul and the Fremen.

[Isis]

[quote name='Insert Edit' date='Apr 21 2008,14.04']I've also read that the publisher wanted the novels split up...[/quote]Cheers for the link, dude. That's interesting stuff. :)

[The Man Who]

I've tried not to read too much of this thread in fear of spoilers, but I got this out from the library on Saturday and have been reading it for the first time.

I'm enjoying it so far, although I'm not that far into it (end of first book bit) and I'm always wary of the fact that seminal works that get ripped off to a large extent start to feel unoriginal (LotR), but I havent' read massive amounts of Sci Fi.

[Relic]

The first Dune tops my All time Great SciFi Books list. It's also been ripped off by Jordan and Martin.

[Tears of Lys]

[quote name='Max the Mostly Mediocre' post='1322262' date='Apr 21 2008, 02.21']Also, and I gather this was intentional (or so says my friend, who's read the whole series), but Paul is [i]really scary[/i]. And an utter bastard.[/quote]

Absolutely. I can't believe anyone thinks that he was written as "perfect."

[quote name='Shryke' post='1322300' date='Apr 21 2008, 03.23']Alot of interesting ideas, but his writing is just straight up awful. Everything interesting is mired by layers of muddy prose.

/snip

I stopped about 20 pages into Chapterhouse once I realised he'd brought Duncan Idaho back A-FUCKING-GAIN. He wasn't even an interesting character the first time he died, let the fucker rest. Anyway, so I never bothreed with the second trilogy.


[b]His son Leto is far more so. deliberately too.[/b][/quote]

Funny, I always thought Leto II was a much more human character (notwithstanding his being a [i]worm[/i] and all) than Paul ever was.

His writing is very oblique. I remember reading and rereading trying to drain every last drop of meaning. I thought it was just me being dense! :P But I don't mind it, though. That's one of the things I like about the Prince of Nothing series. If everything's laid out there for you, where's the fun?


The distinctly [i]alien [/i]appealed to me, and of course, the sand worms. The folding space concept was really interesting (something that no visual medium has ever done successfully, or at least without looking laughable. The first movie, Dino DeLaurentis, I think?) made me giggle out loud when they showed that squiggly protazoa looking puppet maneuvering something in what looked like the cheapest effect ever created.)

The Bene Gesserit were a fascinating concept. I always wanted to hear more about them, how they were trained, etc., - something I [b][i]definitely did not[/i][/b] want to hear more about in Jordan's knock-offs, the Aes Sedai.

Children of Dune, while still interesting, didn't quite grab me in the same way the first one did - not until the ending, of course.

I may go back and reread the books after I finish the Abercrombie books I'm currently reading.

[Rhom]

I read Dune for the first time about a year ago. I really did enjoy it, unfortunatelty as I got into the sequels they seemed to lose quite a bit of the intrigue and wonder that the first book had. That is a common problem with "first books" though... to borrow from Jordan's Wheel of Time, Rand al'Thor is scared of one Trolloc in Eye of the World, and it takes an army of thousands to even phase him in Knife of Dreams; that sort of thing. As Paul and later Leto became the God Emperor, I lost the interest in them as characters. (BTW, I find it rather creepy to name your second son after the first one that died.)

The political manuevering of the houses combined with the fantastic world-building and the question of "just what is Paul?" that pervaded all of the original book combined to make a very satisfactory read. Dune is also very effective because it is a "low tech" Sci-Fi setting much like Martin writes in a "low magic" fantasy setting. I really didn't care much for the subsequent books... God Emperor in particular was a [i]very[/i] difficult read. Like others, I never understood the Duncan love. The man is seriously "on screen" for all of about 2 paragraphs in the first book and then we're supposed to believe that he is the prototypical soldier that Leto's breeding program always breeds back to for thousands of years. /shrug I made it about 2 pages into Chapterhouse: Dune before I put it down (very rare for me not to struggle through a book or series that I've already started). One day I may get around to finishing it.

Dune is interesting because so much of Sci-Fi obviously takes back from it in so many ways. Even in casual Sci-Fi you can't escape it, read a Warhammer 40K book/module or pick up StarCraft and you'll find elements of it.

[matt b]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1322404' date='Apr 21 2008, 07.58']MM,



I continue to refuse to believe those books exist.

DF,

I loved Dune with the exception of God Emperor, however, I'm planning to reread that one to reevaluate my stance.[/quote]

I try to pretend they don't exist either. I read the Butlerian Jihad trilogy and the 2 books that ended up as Dune 7 (how Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson can write so many pages of NOTHING is beyond me, they could have easily fit that into one volume). I still don't really know why I finished them, absolute and utter trash. It's like taking a masterful, subtle, dense, Stanley Kubrick film and letting Michael Bay direct the sequel.

the first time I read the Dune series God Emperor was my least favorite, but on my next reread it became my favorite. One of the things I always liked about Dune is it always seemed to be about more than the story. In certain ways, it seems like the story is merely an excuse to expound on different topics like anthropology and philosophy. Out of the whole series, I think God Emperor is the most extreme example of that, which is one reason why I think it turns a lot of people off. But that's what I love about it.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]The political scene, too, was more interesting than Paul's ascendancy from protodeity to deity, which doesn't help me enjoy the book. I shouldn't get frustrated every time the protagonist appears on a page, but that's what Paul did to me. The Fremen, too, had the same level of overpowered irritation going on. We're told throughout the book that the Sardaukar are terrifying foes, but we never, ever see that. Instead, their skill is used entirely to show how even more inexplicably powerful at fighting the Fremen are. Their culture and technology were more interesting to me than how zomg-power-over-9000! fighting prowess, but again that is skirted by the author.

In summary, the entire book frustrates the hell out of me. He's got an interesting premise, a very interesting world (both the universe and Arrakis), interesting culture sets, and can write fairly well. The he fucks it up with Paul and the Fremen.[/quote]

Your sentiments are almost identical to mine. I enjoyed the world and was fascinated by some of the tech and politics. Really wanted it to be explored more. But I kept having to cut away to read about God-boy and his inexplicably invincible band of cavemen. Even though he was rarely on screen, I actually thought Duke Leto was an infinitely more interesting character than his son. And I'd have been perfectly content if the prophecies fell through, Paul got killed, and Leto carried on as the protagonist.

And it didn't help that I simply couldn't buy the initial premise of the book. The reason given for the emperor to collude with the Harkonnens (not sure if I remember it right) was that he was afraid that Leto's recruitment of the freemen would allow him to create a force that would rival the Sadukasar (sp). Harsh conditions breed tough individuals, fair enough. But would that really be enough to get the galactic emperor pissing in his pants? How much better are they actually gonna be than a well trained and well equipped group of conscripts from anyplace else? The techless freemen taking out the imperial stormtroopers with relative ease...very tough to swallow.

[matt b]

[quote name='EnlightenmentHK' post='1322705' date='Apr 21 2008, 11.23']And it didn't help that I simply couldn't buy the initial premise of the book. The reason given for the emperor to collude with the Harkonnens (not sure if I remember it right) was that he was afraid that Leto's recruitment of the freemen would allow him to create a force that would rival the Sadukasar (sp).[/quote]

actually, that's not quite the case. Most of the universe still drastically underestimated the Fremen, it was a complete shock to the Harkonnens and the Emperor when his Saukaukar got their asses handed to them. The reason was that Duke Leto was becoming increasing popular in the Landsraad (the Council of Great Houses) and was also building up his own very well trained fighting force. Within a few years, Leto may have been able to challenge the Emperor himself.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Tears of Lys' post='1322563' date='Apr 21 2008, 09.53']Funny, I always thought Leto II was a much more human character (notwithstanding his being a [i]worm[/i] and all) than Paul ever was.[/quote]

He's more human, but at the same time scarier. He's far more willing to sacrifice people for the goal. Which was, really, the point of the ending of Children of Dune. Leto is willing to do what Paul was not.

[quote]His writing is very oblique. I remember reading and rereading trying to drain every last drop of meaning. I thought it was just me being dense! :P But I don't mind it, though. That's one of the things I like about the Prince of Nothing series. If everything's laid out there for you, where's the fun?[/quote]

I don't mind dense writing. I don't like muddy writing.

To use an example, I just finished off [i]Book of the New Sun[/i] by Gene Wolfe. The prose is FAR from easy in that book. And yet, I always felt like I knew WHAT was happening, it just left me with the feeling that I'd missed some sort of deeper meaning. That there was some other layer I wasn't latching on to.

Dune's prose left me wondering WTF was happening. Not like I was missing the layers in the work, but rather that the writing simply wasn't good enough to convey even the basic action of what was happening. It wasn't deep, it was unclear.

[Black Wizard]

I did a critical essay on [i]Dune[/i] as my "Personal Study" in Higher English last year. It's basically about characterisation, setting and theme blah, blah, blah. I thought I did a pretty good job of it, but my teacher said it was "enough to pass." :lol:

[quote][center][b][u]The Power of the Desert[/u][/b][/center]

Frank Herbert’s science-fiction novel [i]Dune[/i] is the first in a series of novels based on a desert world. I feel this book raises the issue of how a harsh habitat and lifestyle on the fringes of civilisation can change a well educated young man from a politically important family into the fierce messiah of the local population. I intend to show how the main character’s personality is changed by his situation and how such a place can create possibly violent religions that its followers are dedicated to.

The planet on which [i]Dune[/i] is set, Arrakis, is an arid, desolate world where water is scarce and closely guarded: “Remember how precious water is here.” This shows the status of even a tiny quantity of water: it is something highly valuable. That particular quote is connected to the Fremen custom of spitting as a mark of respect, because they are prepared to sacrifice some precious moisture for someone.

The Fremen are the native inhabitants of Arrakis. They live in the desert and have developed a violent culture in order to survive: “Even the Fremen children are violent and dangerous.” This “survival of the fittest” approach to life is the most likely human reaction to living under permanently harsh conditions, but I also think it is a reference to the culture of people who live in the Middle-East, also in the desert.

A vast quantity of Arrakis is completely uninhabitable. This is because the desert engulfs most of the planet, almost from pole to pole. In the deep desert there are deadly creatures known as “Sandworms” and sandstorms that can “eat the flesh…etch the bones to slivers.” I found this vivid and fearsome description of the sandstorms creates a chilling atmosphere that sets up the mood of the rest of the story and prepares the reader for drama and tragedy.

Paul Atreides is introduced into the novel as a fifteen year old who is highly intelligent and inquisitive. He had been brought up by his mother to control his mind and body, which made him able to solve a problem any other fifteen year old could not: “You did that on remarkably few clues.” This is a good example of how fast his mind could work, and raises interest in how Paul will develop as his fate becomes apparent.

Paul was also brought up to carry on one particular family trait: loyalty. His father and mentors taught him never to break a promise and to show himself as a trustworthy person, and the trustworthiness of the Atreides family was legendary: “No Atreides has ever broken such a bond.” Paul had quite clearly paid heed to his teachers and this quote shows he used his knowledge and family reputation to good effect in troublesome situations.

He may have been brought up to be kind and loyal, but the death of his father changed him dramatically: “…harshness in Paul…never seen in an Atreides” and “I might do this out of pure spite.” These are excellent examples of Paul’s change into a fierce, embittered man because of the grief he suffered and the harsh desert home he had lived in with the Fremen, who revered him as their messiah, “Muad’Dib.” The way Paul’s character changes is one of the most crucial aspects of the story, as it invites the reader to feel sympathy for Paul or be shocked by his aggressive personality.

In [i]Dune[/i], Frank Herbert uses the Fremen to symbolise how religions work. He does this in three ways. The first part he examines is the role of a Jesus-like messiah who has been prophesised but the wait for him has been so long he has simple become a legend: “thinking of the legend”, “the Voice from the Outer World.” The Fremen’s sense of awe and worship towards their messiah, Muad’Dib, is conveyed by these quotes. They strongly remind me of Jesus because Christianity claims that the Old Testament prophesised the arrival of Jesus, just as the coming of Muad’Dib was prophesised.

The second point is about the spread of religions. When living in a harsh environment, people may turn to God for help. The Fremen had their religion but another crucial factor was the violence they received from the rulers of Arrakis: “it’s well known that repression makes a religion flourish.” For me, this is an extremely important quote because it highlights Frank Herbert’s use of Middle-eastern culture for his Fremen. By this I mean that it is similar to Islamic culture in waging a “Jihad”, holy war, against repressors.

The final way in which [i]Dune[/i] symbolises religion is by showing how the Fremen’s religion is a lie, simply created by a “Manipulator of religions.” I believe this sums up Frank Herbert’s opinion on religion, that it’s just a lie concocted by power-hungry people looking to manipulate others for their own purposes.

I think that Frank Herbert’s [i]Dune[/i] succeeded well in showing a harsh environment and lifestyle can influence the attitudes of a society and a young man. Although the book was published forty years ago, the theme of religion is appropriate today, considering that we see images of the desert and hear about Islamic extremists and their holy wars in almost every news report. Overall, I felt that Frank Herbert’s use of setting to influence character and theme was very effective in building up my enjoyment of the novel, as it encouraged me to consider the effects of certain situations and how difficult life is for people living in the desert.[/quote]

[C.T. Phipps]

[quote name='matt b' post='1322742' date='Apr 21 2008, 11.37']actually, that's not quite the case. Most of the universe still drastically underestimated the Fremen, it was a complete shock to the Harkonnens and the Emperor when his Saukaukar got their asses handed to them. The reason was that Duke Leto was becoming increasing popular in the Landsraad (the Council of Great Houses) and was also building up his own very well trained fighting force. Within a few years, Leto may have been able to challenge the Emperor himself.[/quote]

No, you're both right. Duke Leto was killed because the soldiers of House Atreides were almost as good as the Emperors' Saukaukar.

But yes, it helps to realize that the technology in Dune is actually fairly regressive. Space travel is basically just "send something up into space and then have it teleported across the galaxy by the Navigators." So there's not really anything in the way of the usual space battle tropes.

The Emperor's personal fighting force is also the only way that he maintains power. It's the same way with Paul Atreides. I actually started liking Paul only after he became Emperor and we realized that in order to be Emperor, you have to be a sadistic and soulless bastard (hence his Fremen killing massive numbers of people).

I also think that Frank Herbert was smart in that he told just enough about his world to keep it tantalizing and mysterious but didn't give all the infodumps that other authors might. This preserved the sense that people wanted to know more.

As for Kevin J. Anderson and his son, my opinion is summarized by the Penny Arcade comic here.

[url="http://www.penny-arcade.com/2003/10/15/"]http://www.penny-arcade.com/2003/10/15/[/url]

The actual Penny Arcade comic is too offensive to post sadly.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Charles Phipps' post='1322968' date='Apr 21 2008, 13.24']The actual Penny Arcade comic is too offensive to post sadly.[/quote]

Huh? I've posted that Penny Arcade comic dozens of times on this board. I'd do it again, but the archive is down right now.

[alguien]

The original Dune was my favorite of the series. So many interesting, cool concepts. A healthy dose of action and description. The dialogue was amazing. Especially for the time it was written!

Stillsuits? Crysknife fighting? Mentats? Sandworm riding? Fencing with a shield? C'mon people, these were fantastic!!!

To me the most fascinating idea was that in the far future, mankind was actually trying to genetically engineer a messiah. That fact that the Kwisatch Hiderach (sp?) works out in quite a different way is perfect.

The second book was a slightly inferior to the first, but still a good read. The third book...that's when I started to lose interest. There was WAY too much exposition on the dangers of prescience which read more like an academic treatise, and not enough focus paid on the story. I did like what happened to Leto II, but felt like Paul's character had been betrayed, almost like a retcon.

The fourth book I finished because I was curious, but it was too far away from the third to really enjoy. I've tried picking up the others, but it seems like they moved away from what I liked about the original three.

I also wanted to note that watching the Matrix movies was like watching a virtual reality version of Dune. Both are engineered Messiahs who subsequently rebel against the roles designed for them, both are blinded but gain a mystical ability to "see", both lose their wives. Hell, the Deus machine in Matrix III looks like an illustration of Leto as a Sandworm deity. There are other parallels I noted as well. Perhaps that's unavoidable because messianic myths have a lot of the same archetypes, but I've always wondered how much the Wachowsky (sp?) brothers were influenced by Dune when they made the Matrix trilogy.

[C.T. Phipps]

I think, for me, that the Dune series ends with [b]God Emperor of Dune[/b].

Nothing past that could really say anything more on the subject to me.