Dune: The Original Novel

[matt b]

[quote name='Charles Phipps' post='1322968' date='Apr 21 2008, 13.24']But yes, it helps to realize that the technology in Dune is actually fairly regressive. Space travel is basically just "send something up into space and then have it teleported across the galaxy by the Navigators."[/quote]

I'm sure you're just making this statement for the sake of argument, but that's one thing that has always bothered me about both the movie and the mini-series. Navigators don't teleport anything. They have faster than light engines that do the actual teleportation part of it. They merely use the Spice to see the correct course to take since Butlerian Jihad won't allow them to use computers. That's not real obvious in Dune, but becomes more obvious later in the series when the Ixians develop navigation machines to replace the Spice. Just one of my pet peeves about the movies.

[Tears of Lys]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1322824' date='Apr 21 2008, 12.18']He's more human, but at the same time scarier. He's far more willing to sacrifice people for the goal. Which was, really, the point of the ending of Children of Dune. Leto is willing to do what Paul was not.[/quote]

But he sacrificed [b]himself [/b]at the end of [i]Children, [/i]and he does so again, quite memorably, in [i]God Emperor. [/i]Paul was responsible for the deaths of untold billions in [i]Dune Messiah[/i], AFAIR, when he unleashes his Fremen on the universe. I know Leto II wasn't a saint (aside from being God-Emperor :P ), but by cutting off the spice production and marooning each planet by essentially ending space travel, he was giving humanity, in effect, a second chance.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1322824' date='Apr 21 2008, 12.18']I don't mind dense writing. I don't like muddy writing.

To use an example, I just finished off [i]Book of the New Sun[/i] by Gene Wolfe. The prose is FAR from easy in that book. And yet, I always felt like I knew WHAT was happening, it just left me with the feeling that I'd missed some sort of deeper meaning. That there was some other layer I wasn't latching on to.

Dune's prose left me wondering WTF was happening. Not like I was missing the layers in the work, but rather that the writing simply wasn't good enough to convey even the basic action of what was happening. It wasn't deep, it was unclear.[/quote]

I can recall some "huh?" moments too - one of the reasons I'd reread and reread, but on the whole, I think I was able to figure out the basic idea. BTW, when I got to Chapterhouse Dune, though, all bets were off! Major WTF moments all the way through.

[C.T. Phipps]

[quote name='matt b' post='1323098' date='Apr 21 2008, 14.19']I'm sure you're just making this statement for the sake of argument, but that's one thing that has always bothered me about both the movie and the mini-series. Navigators don't teleport anything. They have faster than light engines that do the actual teleportation part of it. They merely use the Spice to see the correct course to take since Butlerian Jihad won't allow them to use computers. That's not real obvious in Dune, but becomes more obvious later in the series when the Ixians develop navigation machines to replace the Spice. Just one of my pet peeves about the movies.[/quote]

The Navigators don't teleport but they do make the calculations possible that allow the teleportation. Thus, in terms of shorthand, it's true.

[quote]But he sacrificed himself at the end of Children, and he does so again, quite memorably, in God Emperor. Paul was responsible for the deaths of untold billions in Dune Messiah, AFAIR, when he unleashes his Fremen on the universe. I know Leto II wasn't a saint (aside from being God-Emperor tongue.gif ), but by cutting off the spice production and marooning each planet by essentially ending space travel, he was giving humanity, in effect, a second chance.[/quote]

Paul is quite open about the fact that he didn't have the stomach for essentially transforming him into a Sub-human God for thousands of years. So, instead, he attempted to 'cheat fate' by unleashing the Jihad of the Fremen on the Universe to slaughter any who wouldn't worship him as a god.

Dune is one of the rare series where the original protagionist is exceeded by the second one. We just tend to sympathize with Paul more because he was human and driven by human motivations (despite being; bluntly, a stoic and reserved killer)

[Rhom]

One of my favorite lines (I think it was in Dune Messiah) was when Paul compared himself to Hitler and pointed out that the number of people who died in his name far dwarfed anything Hitler did. I thought that was an interesting spin for a protagonist of a series.

[C.T. Phipps]

[quote name='rhombencephalon' post='1323318' date='Apr 21 2008, 16.06']One of my favorite lines (I think it was in Dune Messiah) was when Paul compared himself to Hitler and pointed out that the number of people who died in his name far dwarfed anything Hitler did. I thought that was an interesting spin for a protagonist of a series.[/quote]

Frank Herbert wanted to make an anti-Protagonist. Paul is ultimately a passive character aping out the destiny set before him by the Bene Gesserit right up until he takes hand of it, only to find that he's still a slave. It's rather tragic that every movie adaptation of Dune fails to see that Paul is not the hero but the victim of all this.

[alguien]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1323341' date='Apr 21 2008, 16.26']I have a question having not read Dune yet but always having it on the list: Was the first Dune written as a stand-alone and then expanded upon due to the unexpected popularity of it? Or more simply, did he set out to write one self-contained story with the first one?[/quote]

In a biography I read about Frank Herbert, I recall it indicating that he had originally planned on the first three, but then they kept expanding. Its been a few years so I could be wrong.

[matt b]

[quote name='Charles Phipps' post='1323188' date='Apr 21 2008, 16.05']The Navigators don't teleport but they do make the calculations possible that allow the teleportation. Thus, in terms of shorthand, it's true.[/quote]

I figured that's what you meant, but like I said it's one of my pet peeves that a surprisingly large number of people (including apparently at least 2 filmmakers) don't seem to get. :thumbsup:

[quote name='Triskele']Was the first Dune written as a stand-alone and then expanded upon due to the unexpected popularity of it? Or more simply, did he set out to write one self-contained story with the first one?[/quote]

check out Insert Edit's post on page 2 of this thread, he links to an article that sums things up pretty well. More or less the first 3 books were at least conceived at roughly the same time. Parts of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were written concurrently with the original.

[Starkess]

Dune is one of my all-time favorite books. The first time I read it, I stayed up all night to finish it, despite having school the next day. I got sidetracked while reading some of the later ones and just never had enough interest to finish them. I've always wanted to try to read them again, as I did like them, I just had taken too long of a break to pick it back up without re-reading the first couple books over again.

I really like Paul a lot, until he came back from the desert. That blew. Paul Atreides should have stumbled off into the desert, a blind, great man, and died. But. I'm reconciled to the fact that he did not.

[C.T. Phipps]

[quote]I really like Paul a lot, until he came back from the desert. That blew. Paul Atreides should have stumbled off into the desert, a blind, great man, and died. But. I'm reconciled to the fact that he did not.[/quote]

I actually liked that subversion.

Paul Atreides tried to commit suicide....but failed.

[Larry.]

OK, having started the re-read today (first seven chapters), a thought came to me: In the scene with the Reverend Mother and the gom jabbar (Arabic, no?), the bit about testing to see if one was "human" is one that struck me, especially with the oblique references not just to the Butlerian Jihad, but also perhaps to our own times and our passivity when it comes to matters of "fate" and of decision-making. Did anyone else get that vibe when reading the story?

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

No, but that's probably because I don't hate America. Unlike someone I could name...

[Larry.]

Qué? Who hates 'Mer'ka?

And for others, a [url="http://ofblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/dune-three-editions-and-more.html"]slightly-related post[/url] linking to the American, Spanish, and Serbian covers for [i]Dune[/i].

[C.T. Phipps]

[quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1323380' date='Apr 21 2008, 16.59']OK, having started the re-read today (first seven chapters), a thought came to me: In the scene with the Reverend Mother and the gom jabbar (Arabic, no?), the bit about testing to see if one was "human" is one that struck me, especially with the oblique references not just to the Butlerian Jihad, but also perhaps to our own times and our passivity when it comes to matters of "fate" and of decision-making. Did anyone else get that vibe when reading the story?[/quote]

Ultimately, it's Frank Herbert making a comment on the fact that any individual can choose to overcome his own pain and adversity with free will and choice. However, a person who reacts purely on instinct and emotion (ignorance) is an animal rather than a person.

The Bene Gesserit just chose an extreme method of testing Paul to see if he had the potential to be a Messiah.

Dune is one of the least analogous series out there oddly enough and thus is able to remain rather timeless because of it.

[Larry.]

While I agree to an extent, that entire scene, in which the prohibition against thinking machines and the reference to the rise of the Mentats is discussed, makes me wonder if Herbert might be making a brief aside of sorts.

[C.T. Phipps]

[quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1323463' date='Apr 21 2008, 17.58']While I agree to an extent, that entire scene, in which the prohibition against thinking machines and the reference to the rise of the Mentats is discussed, makes me wonder if Herbert might be making a brief aside of sorts.[/quote]

I disagree, primarilly because I don't believe Frank Herbert ever intended to do a Butlerian Jihad book or treat it as anything more than backstory. It's one of my main objections to the Frank Herbert books that they're essentially showing what was always meant to be merely window dressing for the setting.

[Larry.]

I'm not arguing whether or not Frank Herbert intended to write the story that his son and KJA ultimately did, but rather that by creating such a backstory and having it have such a powerful message in just a few passing words here and there, he's made an even more powerful statement than if he had explicated it through an entire book devoted to that notion.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

[quote]Ultimately, it's Frank Herbert making a comment on the fact that any individual can choose to overcome his own pain and adversity with free will and choice. However, a person who reacts purely on instinct and emotion (ignorance) is an animal rather than a person.[/quote]

This struck me as a sort of weird, though I dunno if it was authorial weirdness or in-universe Bene Gesserit weirdness. A binary choice between being a person and being and animal, with personhood predicated on being able to ignore--or at least endure--excruciating pain?

[Larry.]

More of a reason versus instinct argument going on there, Max, if I understood the narrative right.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1323463' date='Apr 21 2008, 17.58']While I agree to an extent, that entire scene, in which the prohibition against thinking machines and the reference to the rise of the Mentats is discussed, makes me wonder if Herbert might be making a brief aside of sorts.[/quote]

The Golden Path seems to also have something to do with this, in my mind. He seems to support the idea of the ... expanding, ever evolving human. Machines are like a crutch we don't need or something of the sort. Maybe.

[Vhagar]

What I really remember about those books besides the obvious stuff (Sand. Sand. Sand. Blue on blue eyes.) was the repeated cloning of the Duncans and becoming increasingly grossed out and annoyed. Annoyed because it was this same character repeatedly resurrected like finding a way to make him immortal was too cliche. Grossed out because I had this vision of his mummified corpse lingering around in a jar of formaldehyde somewhere, like something out of a middle school biology class. A bad middle school biology class.
I was a teenager....I think I missed a lot of the major themes, (Or at least I don't remember them) but I do remember finally giving up on the series because of repeated Duncans.