Lord of Oop North Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 [quote name='Wouter' post='1352462' date='May 12 2008, 17.07']If the Cylons had come from a strong position (say, like in the Ionian nebula, with the human fleet at their mercy), if they had offered help then, that would have been much more believable.[/quote] Why would the Cylons EVER have done that? I don't think that would be believeable at all ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Kilmore Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 [quote name='Wouter' post='1352336' date='May 12 2008, 13.30']Exactly. What some viewers are missing, I think, is that Tigh's planned moves meant [b]that he was effectively going to help the Cylons, the very worst of the Cylons, to exterminate the human race[/b]. He was proposing to randomly kill large numbers of humans, not even those who were collaborating, only those who happened to be around at a market at the wrong time (and encouraging the Cylons to kill yet more humans as a response). Tigh, and anyone who was going to help him with that, deserves to get their ass airlocked over this, as it is treason of the worst sort.[/quote] I agree with you regarding the Sucide Bombings, I just don't think Tigh did. Even though we don't agree to the cost, do you dispute the logic that the bombings would force the human populace to choose sides? That the intense fear would make those innocents go one way or the other? (Not asking you to rationalize which way that they would go, just that they would choose a side.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 [quote name='Lord of Oop North' post='1352482' date='May 12 2008, 23.23']Why would the Cylons EVER have done that? I don't think that would be believeable at all ...[/quote] Because they were on the losing end of a civil war, for example? It could be written that way, no problem. It's not because they are losing they can't have 4 functioning baseships remaining, and they could still be looking for the Final Five (that would require a cease-fire at least). Besides, the Cylons could also have been written to finally understand that genocide is wrong (and a monstrous crime, besides) and genuinely want forgiveness and to help to earn that - to some small degree. Not at all impossible, if you look at episodes like "Downloaded", where Cylons do realise they are butchers and want to stop being that. But the writers have chosen to go a very different route. And the way they are going about this alliance, is probably wrong for the few people in this thread who have expressed disappointment with this episode (or the whole season so far, really, since it is one big flowing story at the moment). I think the key to a believable Cylon-human alliance would be a great deal of necessity on the human side (beggars can't be choosers), it seems they are failing to show such necessity at the moment. Perhaps they will correct this in the next episode, but I'm not quite holding my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 [quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1352491' date='May 12 2008, 23.30']I agree with you regarding the Sucide Bombings, I just don't think Tigh did. Even though we don't agree to the cost, do you dispute the logic that the bombings would force the human populace to choose sides? That the intense fear would make those innocents go one way or the other? (Not asking you to rationalize which way that they would go, just that they would choose a side.)[/quote] Practically all humans would be on the human side anyway? Any doubters would rather be swayed to turn to the Cylons I think, as it would be the so-called resistance that is actually killing them, justifying the NCP's actions to some extent. And even if this would sway them to take up arms or so, that's just a more direct route to extermination as the Cylons are so powerful they could just as well throw stones instead of using the few weapons they had (without Galactica's intervention). Besides, it would be monstrous even if it would have served some purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 The Colonials wouldn't negotiate with the Cylons if they were in a position of strength. It's too dangerous. A damaged Basestar, on the other hand, is not a threat. As for what's in it for the Colonials? Why not? If nothing else you can space all the skin-jobs and go R&D crazy on a Basestar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Even a damaged basestar is a threat. It can signal your position. It can jump into other ships, or launch (heavy) raiders to do the same. It can be not quite as damaged as it looks, if it is a trap. It can try to spread computer viruses. Or it can just try to infiltrate the fleet, perhaps to find Earth. When the Cylons are in a position of strength, the humans may have little choice (and it would at least suggest the cylons are genuine in their offer to talk, because they're wasting a perfectly good opportunity to kill the RTF). Moreover, they did negotiate in "Eye of jupiter", where the Cylons where the stronger party, allthough they didn't have the fleet at their mercy like in the nebula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 [quote name='Wouter' post='1352492' date='May 12 2008, 17.31']Because they were on the losing end of a civil war, for example? It could be written that way, no problem.[/quote] I think it's more of a problem then you believe. If this 'alliance' happened in the first episode of Season 4, it would have made no sense. There was no build-up to a Cylon Civil War, and it would have came out of left field. The Cavils, Simons, and Dorals would never have agreed. So the Cylons jump into the Ionian Nebula, battle the humans for a while, and then decide to offer them an Alliance. Why? The season 3 cliffhanger would have to be fundamentally different for that to be believeable, IMO. I'm not saying the current Alliance is entirely believeable (and I think we should withhold judgement until we see how Adama/Roslin react) but I think your situation is even less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 For me, the alliance is plausible because it's what they did in [b]Robotech[/b], and the parallels between the new [b]BSG [/b]and [b]Robotech[/b], which started off strong, are now quite striking ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 [quote name='Werthead' post='1352528' date='May 12 2008, 18.13']For me, the alliance is plausible because it's what they did in [b]Robotech[/b], and the parallels between the new [b]BSG [/b]and [b]Robotech[/b], which started off strong, are now quite striking ;)[/quote] Ah, the argumentum ad robotech. I agree. :) I do like what they have done with the Alliance, and I'm pleased with this season so far. Hopefully the aftermath of their arrival at the Fleet is handled well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Well, the Cylon alliance idea could have benefitted from some better long term planning, even if only for that part of the plot (which is quite crucial to the show). Then they could have moved the nebula thing later in S4, and make the Dylan 4 reveal a separate event. Such things need a bit of time to build, it is all going a bit fast at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Of course, I do find it odd that the Cylons could slave the FTL of the basestar to a Raptor and jump the baseship, but that the baseship couldn't interface with a jump capable Heavy Raider, at least one of which survived the battle with Cavil. Is that evidence of more Cylon chicanery, or just lazy plotting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 [quote name='mcbigski' post='1352589' date='May 12 2008, 18.38']Of course, I do find it odd that the Cylons could slave the FTL of the basestar to a Raptor and jump the baseship, but that the baseship couldn't interface with a jump capable Heavy Raider, at least one of which survived the battle with Cavil. Is that evidence of more Cylon chicanery, or just lazy plotting?[/quote] Or the ship jumped out before the battle was over or something maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Or, once again, why its suddenly difficult for Cylons to operate a Raptor on their own. Couldn't they just plug their arm into the damned thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemon Stark Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 They're not Borgs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddison Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 And yet, we've seen them plug their arms into ships... Even easier, all of the 8's are trained to use the raptor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 There is far too much standing around talking and waxing mystic or new age philosophy. That's not what made BSG great. Moore needs to stop preaching and focus on the entertainment aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merentha Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 [quote name='Aemon Stark' post='1352771' date='May 12 2008, 22.08']They're not Borgs.[/quote] Athena shoved a wire into her arm to be able to transmit the virus to the Raiders back in S2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 [quote name='Eddison' post='1352828' date='May 12 2008, 23.03']And yet, we've seen them plug their arms into ships... Even easier, all of the 8's are trained to use the raptor.[/quote] Are we sure that's the case? Athena was basically a copy of Boomer, but there were countless eights that have been alive and unresurrected since before the attack on the colonies. Especially since they didn't have access to the ressurection ship, it doesn't seem to me that every 8 on board would have been updated with their memories, especially since Athena is a traitor and Boomer was nearly boxed for too much damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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