How Jayne Westerling Saved House Stark

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='oxmix' post='1402489' date='Jun 17 2008, 19.03']I assme that Sybell is lying because 1) if I am right about there being an ersatz Jeyne, then Sybell is in on the deception of Jaime; 2) according to Tywin, Sybell is Maggy the Frog's granddaughter, and Maggy would have told her children to hate and fear Lanisters; and 3) it improves the story.[/quote][list=1]
[*]Sybell is lying because if you are right she is lying? Might as well say "because I believe she is"
[*]Why should Maggy have said that? Because a Lannister girl threw something in her eyes? And besides, did Ned tell his children to hate and fear Targaryens and Lannisters (who did him far worse offense)?
[*]It makes the story worse, in my eyes. It's an unnecessary thread, that was closed awesomely by the Red Wedding. If we forget that the old switcheroo would be a bit cheesy and overdone, adding Robb's real heir in the fray adds what? nothing, it just reduces the drama and the infighting generated by a lack of acceptable heir for Robb. I fail to see the story improvement here.
[/list]

[morbiczer]

[quote name='oxmix' post='1390228' date='Jun 9 2008, 18.49']The Freys produce weak males who everyone hates.[/quote]

I don't think this is necessarily (sp?) true. There are all sorts of Freys, some are a decent, and actually Roslin Frey seems to be one of them. And guys like Black Walder or Bastard Walder certainly aren't "weak".

[Old Pate]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1402550' date='Jun 17 2008, 11.27']It makes the story worse, in my eyes. It's an unnecessary thread, that was closed awesomely by the Red Wedding. If we forget that the old switcheroo would be a bit cheesy and overdone, adding Robb's real heir in the fray adds what? nothing, it just reduces the drama and the infighting generated by a lack of acceptable heir for Robb. I fail to see the story improvement here.[/quote]

The difficulty with Robb's potential heirs is not that they are unacceptable. It is that they are unavailable or unknown. Robb's designated heir, Jon, doesn't know he has been legitimated and has sworn to the Watch. Bran, Rickon, and Arya are [i]thought[/i] to be dead, but live. Sansa is [i]thought[/i] to be married to a Lannister (though it was never consummated), and her whereabouts are unknown.

So, if Jeyne is bearing Robb's trueborn son, it fits perfectly with the theme and heightens the drama of it.

It improves the story because it is a story about the game of thrones; a story about heirs, marriages, sons and daughters . . .

In a way, Martin seemed to be closing a thread at the Red Wedding, but on the other hand he seems to delight in bringing out that unexpected factor that changes everything.

[Starkaryan]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1402550' date='Jun 17 2008, 12.27']If we forget that the old switcheroo would be a bit cheesy and overdone, adding Robb's real heir in the fray adds what? nothing, it just reduces the drama and the infighting generated by a lack of acceptable heir for Robb. I fail to see the story improvement here.[/quote]
I have a couple of things to note concerning that. First of all, is it cheesy and overdone if Martin actually does it? Secondly, what it adds to "the fray" is another Stark. I'm not going to elaborate on my wild and unlikely hope that Bran can father children in his malady... Arya a mother?? HA! Sansa will likely take the name of whatever House she marries into, if Littlefinger or Martin allows this, that is... And Rickon... well, who knows? [i]What it adds[/i] is the genius that another heir gives the readers an uneasy hope that perhaps the Stark line will survive, thereby also giving way to the uneasy notion that Martin may dispose of another Stark or three...
Besides, I'm not even altogether on board with this idea that Jeyne is really pregnant. The supernatural lineage her mother brings to the table is certainly an interesting point when one stops to thinks about why she'd lie to a Lannister, but, yeah...
Martin knew that he'd be throwing readers off by allowing the discrepancy of the two accounts (Cat's and Jaime's) of Jeyne's hips, while at the same time being rather identical with the two accounts of her bouncy chestnut curls... He's just a good writer, and all we really can do is speculate until the next book. I'm going to bed.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Cercei is voluptuous. Eddard Stark (and his wife) aren't. Therefore Jaime and Catelyn have different standards for what good wide hips looks like.

Also remember the diet angle. While Cercei is boaring away in KL and grows fat-ulent, Jeyne has eaten little in her mourning and became skinny. Jaime has just come from his fat sister's arms. Of course Jeyne looks skinny.

[shadowbinding shoe]

And story-wise I liked the addition of this glimpse on Robb's wife. Now I know for certain that she really did love him and was not part of the plot. She gives us an interesting parallel to Edmure's wife as well as a parallel for Cercei in Jaime's life. A widow can be interesting even if she's not pregnant. I wouldn't object to seeing a bit more of her if Martin thinks he can cobble up an interesting plot around her (and no, changing diapers is not such a plot imho).

A baby as another Stark heir would be a bit of a blank. Do you really think the story will continue 15 years into the future when 'Jayne W. Stark' could say something other than 'Wah Wah'? And even if it did would we have the time to get to know him and care about him?

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Old Pate' post='1403134' date='Jun 18 2008, 01.35']The difficulty with Robb's potential heirs is not that they are unacceptable. It is that they are unavailable or unknown. [...]
So, if Jeyne is bearing Robb's trueborn son, it fits perfectly with the theme and heightens the drama of it.

It improves the story because it is a story about the game of thrones; a story about heirs, marriages, sons and daughters . . .[/quote]Which is why Jeyne being pregnant is cumbersome and unecessary. With him, you have ultimately less intrigue or cases of conscience. Have that hypothetical Jeyne stay hidden somewhere and it changes nothing in the power dynamics, have her come out and the word will spread and neither Jon nor Bran nor Rickon nor Sansa have any ground to contest his son's right (funny how everyone assumes that if that oscar-worthy overcomplicated mummer's farce really took place then Jeyne is expecting a son and not a daughter, by the way). But without that, everyone has moral grounds to decide to contest his brother's and sister's claims, the "Jon Stark, King in the North" thread illustrates that prettily.


[quote name='Starkaryan' post='1403546' date='Jun 18 2008, 07.11']is it cheesy and overdone if Martin actually does it?[/quote]Why would it not be? Because GRRM is god and no matter what he does it is good? No, he did it once for sure and maybe twice already, in a far, far simpler setting, not requiring anyone to have at the same time a twin's likeness and award-winning acting skills, doing it again in such circumstances would not even be worthy of Eddings. In my humble opinion, of course.

[quote][i]What it adds[/i] is the genius that another heir gives the readers an uneasy hope that perhaps the Stark line will survive, thereby also giving way to the uneasy notion that Martin may dispose of another Stark or three...[/quote]Oh come on, any son of Jon, Arya, Sansa, Rickon or Bran would have the exact same part of Stark blood than Robb's child (which I repeat, can be a daughter, girls are born, sometimes). If Jon can be legitimized and welcomed by readers as a Stark despite being, according to the wishes of many, a Targaryen, I see about zero reason that any children with remote stark blood could not continue to carry the name. Just look at the people Catelyn proposed as heirs instead of Jon, and the Harry the heir situation.

It's just a name, after all. The "Stark blood" of the current generation is what... 1/4 from Rickard Stark, 1/4 from his [i]non-Stark[/i] wife, 1/4 from minisa Whent, 1/4 from Hoster Tully, and Rickard's blood was itself half from his Stark father, half from his non-Stark mother and so on.

If you nitpick on genetics, I also have to point that since Robb took more from the Tullys than from the Starks, then any child of Jeyne and Robb would be more, like half Tully-half Westerling... Or even, in a scenario about as likely, half Westerling and half whatever guy Jeyne had to get pregnant after escaping (One can be reminded about the Plumm house, where Ossifer Plumm impregnated his (Targaryen) wife [i]after[/i] his death)


Anyway, that "hope" is already carried by Rickon, so Robb's heir is redundant on that part also.

[oxmix]

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1403609' date='Jun 18 2008, 02.06']A baby as another Stark heir would be a bit of a blank. Do you really think the story will continue 15 years into the future when 'Jayne W. Stark' could say something other than 'Wah Wah'? And even if it did would we have the time to get to know him and care about him?[/quote]

I suppose the infant King in the North would need a regent.

I would put an add in the paper:

Wanted, Hand to the infant King Eddard. Must be a good swimmer, and have an cool nickname that rhymes with Wack Dish.

[Chalky]

I suppose the infant King in the North would need a regent.

I would put an add in the paper:

Wanted, Hand to the infant King Eddard. Must be a good swimmer, and have an cool nickname that rhymes with Wack Dish.

Which direction will she and the blackfish go? Towards Stannis and Jon or the Eyrie? Or Meereen even? Whoever it is will make the choice of hand for them

[WinterRyan]

I know this has been said before, but the importance of the width of hips is not the "portrait view"...

So looking face to face at Jeyne, Jaime would say she has narrow hips. For all we know, she is narrow, when looking at her front on.

Catelyn as a woman, is more concerned by "profile" width, because it is -that- which is more relevant when it comes to babies.

I know thats a weird analogy, but im odd, so there we go... All this "its a switch"... How many switches can the series have? Jeynes state of grief is just another example of kings and glory coming and going because that is the cost of war and entering the fray for kingship. The losers lose. It cares nothing for teenage shags. Tch.

I think it has been made into much too big of a topic: it seems to me this is a subtle reminder that men and women view the same person differently

Jamie see's her as a sexual figure- how does she measure up from an appealing point of view (how hot is she)

Catelyn is seeing another woman as wife material for her son and sums her up as baby making material

So same person described and viewed differently depending upon gender/thought of viewer

(I would imagine it is the same from Robb if we saw his POV, I'm guessing he would dwell less on her hips more on her face/breasts)

[DocBean]

I think you're all missing something.

GRRM was a Television Series writer.

as a writer for TV, you leave as many openings as possible.

TV writers don't want a linear story line that you just have to unfold, you want it to be more organic.

You want as much wiggle room as possible to take the story where you need it to go.

You know point A, and you know point Z. You just have to figure out a way to get there.

I believe Jeyne's story is one of those.

GRRM is leaving the possibility of a Robb heir if it becomes useful in the future.

He's also covered his bases having an unpregnant Jeyne.

It's as simple as this: "Well if you look at the alternate discriptions I gave you for Jeyne...." or

"Well Jaime and Cat obviously look at women differently. Cersei in comparison has very wide hips...."

Look at how long it's taken him to write this one book.

It's not like GRRM has had a solid outline that he's been sticking with from day 1.

He's written himself into some corners, and made some major changes from what he first imagined.

Remember, he didn't even plan to have dragons until a friend told him he needed to put them in.

[Shewoman]

I think Catelyn had similar thoughts about the girl at the Eyrie--Mya Stone.

[PlainJane]

1. Sybell is lying because if you are right she is lying? Might as well say "because I believe she is"
   
2. Why should Maggy have said that? Because a Lannister girl threw something in her eyes? And besides, did Ned tell his children to hate and fear Targaryens and Lannisters (who did him far worse offense)?
   
3. It makes the story worse, in my eyes. It's an unnecessary thread, that was closed awesomely by the Red Wedding. If we forget that the old switcheroo would be a bit cheesy and overdone, adding Robb's real heir in the fray adds what? nothing, it just reduces the drama and the infighting generated by a lack of acceptable heir for Robb. I fail to see the story improvement here.
   

:agree:

I think Errant Bard nailed it on the head with this. Sorry, I just don't agree that Jeyne is preggers. I think we were all hoping for it, until that chapter when we found out that the "fertility drink" she was taking courtesy of her mama was moon tea.

~ Jane

[Masked Jackal]

I haven't bothered to read the rest of the thread, but judging by a certain Edmure, and a certain Catelyn, the Stark blood was already screwed because of the Tullys.

[Piper]

I haven't bothered to read the rest of the thread, but judging by a certain Edmure, and a certain Catelyn, the Stark blood was already screwed because of the Tullys.

Not a Blackfish fan?

[Errant Bard]

Not a Blackfish fan?

Not only that, but not an Arya, Robb, Bran, Sansa or Rickon fan.

Though I wonder which between the one who get beheaded accomplishing nothing because he told his plan to his enemies, the one who ignites a civil war by eloping, the one who hurls death threats at his king when he's in his power and the king is mad, the one who only gets screwed because there is no other way and is mean to a bastard and the one who fights battle because he cannot read his king's mind has the most "screwed" blood, mind.

[Restless]

1 more reason against Jeyne pregnancy.

Sybell has reason to give anti-pregnancy drugs because negotiating with Tywin.

Also, if, IF Rob somehow wins his war and secures Westerlings from Tywin, she can start giving drugs which increase chances of pregnancy.

For her, giving anti-pregnancy drugs now is a win-win situation.

[lexxxy52]

I think this is assuming way to much on the whole Jeyne swap theory which isn't that strong but still i like it

As for the Frey's while assuming that most Frey's are crap there are some good ones Rosalin seems to genuinely care about Edmure and Robb's squire seemed to be pretty good just the weak or bad ones like Walder Frey Cleos and the drunk guy who got the noose and black Walder and Walder rivers, big Walder and little Walder get the limelight. (kind of a long list i know but there is a lot of Frey's)

Also I think the journey's and struggles of the Blackfish with pregnant Jeyne in tow would be an awesome PoV

I'm hoping the Jeyne swap is true and Robb stark has an heir

As for Sybell's motives she seems to have been conspiring with Tywin the whole time but i do not think she is loyal to him and only whole heartedly supported the Lannister's after the red wedding as Robb and his cause were over. Sybell could not have anticipated the Red Wedding so her mixed loyalties are understandable and her swapping Jeyne make sense if its true the Lannister's would have killed the baby if they found one and possibly Jeyne if they felt threatened enough especially since Cersei took over the Lannister house for a little while.

edit: Yes Jayne was a space man who loved his mum... he also loved the mudders and the captains wife

[Jorah]

Whether it be differing perception, or an error by Martin, I don't think Jeyne was ever pregnant. There were way too many people left at Riverrun who would've known the truth and someone would've talked.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

My personal pet thoery is that Jeyne is not pregant but fled with the Blackfish. I think she may soon be pregnat by someone else and claim the child is Rob's.

When the Westerlings first come to Riverun Jenyne's younger sister was present. Yet she is not mentioned when Jamie takes Riverun. which also explains why she was so upset, having just learnt what Mum did to her big sister with the moontea.

Sybell was/is loyal to the lanisters and tyhe whole thing was planned. She only went alone with the switch when she discovered her daughter is missing. Yes she could have told Jamie but then Jeyne would prob loose her head when found. I think Sybell hope to find her daugther and deal with any child before the switch is discovered.