Dragon Age

[Werthead]

Whilst I liked [i]Mass Effect[/i] I did ponder if it was riffing a little bit too much on the [i]Knights of the Old Republic[/i]/[i]Jade Empire[/i] paradigm established last generation. Great game, no doubt, but merely one that polished an already great concept to a solid sheen without bringing a lot of new material to the table.

BioWare's next title to be released, apart from a couple of [i]Mass Effect[/i] downloadable add-ons, is [i]Dragon Age[/i], which [url="http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=191276&site=cvg"]has now been dated [/url]for March-April 2009 (whilst the [i]Mass Effect[/i] team are rumoured to be already at work on [i]Mass Effect II[/i], and BioWare's third team are engaged in a secret project which is almost certainly [i]Knights of the Old Republic III[/i]).

On the one hand, [i]Dragon Age[/i] is a throwback to BioWare's early beginnings with the [b]Baldur's Gate[/b] series, being set in an epic fantasy world. However, BioWare promise a much grittier world this time around, and have referenced [b]A Song of Ice and Fire[/b] as being a direct inspiration on the game. The world is also their own: they are not limited by what TSR or Wizards of the Coast or LucasArts tell them to do.

On the other, the game has a lot of intersting new ideas. First off, whilst RPGs have had multiple endings for a long time now, [i]Dragon Age[/i] has multiple [i]openings[/i]. Each different race has two different openings, one for a noble and one for a commoner, and these also vary by class. There are thus a number of different openings to the game. These opening sections will last for 2+ hours apiece before your party gathers for the inevitable main quest. Even after this point choices made at the start of the game will continue to have repurcussions later, and a unique-to-each-combo nemesis will be established at the start and will continue to crop up during gameplay. BioWare's goal here is to differentiate the opening of the game enough to make choosing a totally different race/class combo a viable option if you want to see a load more of the game, including locations you cannot visit with other class/race combos.

Excellent-sounding stuff. The full rundown is [url="http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160943"]here[/url].

[quote]One example of how interaction will work is Shale - a character similar to KOTOR's annihilistic droid HK47 - he's a 9ft dwarven War Golem who you can inscribe with runes as the game progresses to power him up. Whether he ends up as a happy, opinionated member of society or remains an unthinking tool of destruction is up to you. As indeed, ultimately, are kingships, the lives and deaths of countless people and the fate of entire races...[/quote]

[diabloblanco18]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1408972' date='Jun 20 2008, 17.49']Whilst I liked [i]Mass Effect[/i] I did ponder if it was riffing a little bit too much on the [i]Knights of the Old Republic[/i]/[i]Jade Empire[/i] paradigm established last generation. Great game, no doubt, but merely one that polished an already great concept to a solid sheen without bringing a lot of new material to the table.[/quote]

I thought [i]Mass Effect[/i] was a big step in the right direction for Bioware, particularly in terms of what they're saying [i]Dragon Age[/i] is going to be like. ME was far more morally ambiguous and brutal than KotOR was, and that fact alone makes me worry a great deal less about Bioware fucking this one up.


On a side note, I was very surprised to find that the second article used the words "in the true spirit of Tolkien" rather justifiably. Usually when Tolkien's name gets bandied about it just makes the speaker sound like a moron.

[burnt hound]

Sounds great. And thanks to the Maker, I will be able to play it because of my new PC. Sweet!

They day Bioware announces KOTORIII, I will weep with joy :D :

[Derfel Cadarn]

[quote name='burnt hound' post='1409273' date='Jun 21 2008, 03.38']Sounds great. And thanks to the Maker, I will be able to play it because of my new PC. Sweet!

They day Bioware announces KOTORIII, I will weep with joy :D :[/quote]

Sounds good.

Given that Bioware is working with LucasArts to develop a MMO, I hope KoTOR 3 is going to be that MMO.

The only real worry I have with Bioware is that they are now owned by EA which was a long-standing tradition of buying good companies and running them to shit. Bullfrog and Origin to name but two. Maxis seems to be reduced to making The Sims games and add-on.

[Ender]

Since Dragon Age was announced way back when, there's been talk about trying to make this a truly "gritty" RPG, citing ASoIaF as an inspiration for the feel of the game world. I'm interested in two things regarding that point:

(a) Will the developers actually be able to overcome the good/evil RPG paradigm? GRRM is able to do it in ASoIaF in part because he gives tremendous depth to his characters. Is it feasible to color an entire game world with characters with complex motivations and have them figure into how they relate to your character(s)? It is definitely very ambitious. It requires both excellent writing and the willingness to allow your director and programmers to do what needs to be done to create a morally dynamic game world. That Bioware has been in no rush to get this game out on anyone's schedule but their own is a good sign, but deadlines and budgets always come into play eventually.

(B) How will audiences respond when likable characters have shady or downright greedy/selfish sides or when "villains" are actually morally "right?" I think hardcore, mature RPG players will appreciate the twists and turns the characters give the story, but a lot of casual players I've come across seem to appreciate a more cut-and-dry, good-vs-evil world. Many people like playing heroes, helping the innocent and crushing the bad guys...but that works a lot differently when it's not clear who's innocent and who are the bad guys.

One of the really great things about this game IMO has been that it facilitated a lot of discussion among Bioware fans--largely on their forums--about what things work and what things don't in an RPG, and how people approach CRPGs from combat to sidequests to running with a party. Given that some of Bioware's developers actually read and post on the boards, it can really be hoped that Bioware will be ahead of the curve in terms of gameplay, both in Dragon Age and their future RPG projects.

As for KotOR3, I'd love to see Bioware finish the story with a single-player RPG like the first two. An MMO, for me, means likely too much catering to the Galaxies crowd. I do think a KotOR-era sandbox game could be fun if the in-game settings are really well developed, but it would be almost impossible to give the Sith-Jedi conflict (which incidentally is [i]far[/i] more interesting in the games than what Lucas was able to come up with for his movies IMO) the conclusion it deserved that way. I'm still hoping the Bioware-LA MMO is Monkey Island. ;)

[Rhom]

[quote name='burnt hound' post='1409273' date='Jun 21 2008, 03.38']Sounds great. And thanks to the Maker, I will be able to play it because of my new PC. Sweet!

They day Bioware announces KOTORIII, I will weep with joy :D :[/quote]

1) I hope for a stand-alone KOTOR3 single player game.

2) I also sincerely think that if SW:G had been set around a timeframe of KOTOR, it could have been [i]much[/i] better. So I would certainly be open to an Old Republic MMO.

[Derfel Cadarn]

[quote name='rhombencephalon' post='1409416' date='Jun 21 2008, 08.52']1) I hope for a stand-alone KOTOR3 single player game.

2) I also sincerely think that if SW:G had been set around a timeframe of KOTOR, it could have been [i]much[/i] better. So I would certainly be open to an Old Republic MMO.[/quote]

What would be uber would be KotOR done like NWN i.e it has a singleplayer campaign but has the tools to make multiplayer modules.

[Werthead]

[i]Knights of the Old Republic III[/i] is pretty much a dead cert. BioWare and LucasArts are working on a project together and a recently-sacked employee (of LucasArts, not BioWare) [url="http://kotaku.com/5013769/rumor-ex+lucasarts-staffer-talks-kotor-3-non+lego-indy-wii-lightsaber-game"]here[/url] said that [i]KotOR III[/i] is underway and will be an MMORPG.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1409780' date='Jun 21 2008, 16.03'][i]Knights of the Old Republic III[/i] is pretty much a dead cert. BioWare and LucasArts are working on a project together and a recently-sacked employee (of LucasArts, not BioWare) [url="http://kotaku.com/5013769/rumor-ex+lucasarts-staffer-talks-kotor-3-non+lego-indy-wii-lightsaber-game"]here[/url] said that [i]KotOR III[/i] is underway and will be an MMORPG.[/quote]

[Censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored]!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

KotOR 3 a [censored] MMORPG??!! [Censored]!!! :mad: :mad:

Here I had been praying for [i]years[/i] for a true sequel to that KotOR, one that would live up to that gem which brought me more into the Star Wars universe than anything since Timothy Zahn's long-ago Thrawn Trilogy. I certainly didn't want another buggy follow-up crippled by LucasArts rushing it woefully incomplete to stores in time for Christmas, and damn quality (or LucasArts' integrity).

Instead, you're telling me KoTOR 3 will be another worthless MMORPG, sure to be filled by thousands of repellent, pimply twelve year-old jerks who don't give a rat's ass about the RPG part and just want to kill stuff and take its loot with their shiny uber roxxors lightsabers??!! :tantrum: :mad:

Didn't the [censored] idiots at LucasArts learn their lesson with the debacle that was Star Wars: Galaxies? How will those two coexist, anyway? Unless the plug is pulled on Galaxies in the hope that Bioware's sterling reputation will be enough to lure back players who rightfully gave Galaxies the finger after the loathsome betrayal that was the so-called Combat Upgrade.

*suddenly feels very weary* Ah, well. Looks like I'll have to look to Dragon Age for what I had so dearly hoped KotOR 3 would be. :(

[Ender]

Krafus, I really do feel pretty much the same as you about this. And while I do think the KotOR era would make for a fun MMO setting, as a completion to the stories of Revan, the Exile, the other NPCs we've met, and the Sith vs. Jedi conflict that underlied the Mandalorian Wars and which looked like it would be coming to ahead in K3, a MMO can't possibly do it justice.

Basically I read this as a big FU to the KotOR CRPG fanbase. Your personal role-played Revan and Exile will likely be tossed out for the canon versions. The charm of these type of CRPGs also lies heavily in your party members. While you might get NPCs for some instanced content and specific quests, you aren't running around the game world with them. So they're out in most cases in favor of human partners. Romance? Bastila becomes the galaxy's biggest slut with 2 million saber-wielding geeks /dancing with her? Er, well, I hope not...romances are likely out the window. The customizations and mods people enjoyed making and playing with KotOR1 and TSL? Sorry.

Of the original series' biggest strengths, none of them can be satisfied by an MMO with any consistancy. Unless of course Bioware can actually pull some magic out of its ass and really come up with things that were not previously concievable for MMOs.

Really, even if marketed as such, I don't see this can play as a KotOR3. It would be a Star Wars MMO in the KotOR era in which the story of the CRPGs is resolved by throwing in Revan, the Exile, and the lords of the True Sith as quests givers and/or "bosses."

I'm already having nightmares...Revan = Illidan; the Exile = Kael'thas;

Ewok Bounty Hunter: WOOHOOO! we rolled that traitorous bastard Revan. /dance Wookie Jedi, wth?
Ewok Jedi: WTF dood whyd u roll need?
Wookie Jedi: STFU its teh [1337 Gold Instaslay Saber of Noob Pwnage] i can use that
Gamorean Jedi: evrybuddy can use that
Bith Jedi: f-ing idiot
Jawa Bounty Hunter: then u shud haf rolled NEED dumass
Ewok Jedi: newb
Gamorean Jedi: noob
Bith Jedi: fu nooooob im out of hear
Wookie Jedi: Fing sweet! luk at my sword now! I will pwn u allz! /chicken

---

:leaving:

Er, so yeah, back on topic.

I'm glad Dragon Age is not being designed as an MMO. :D

[url="http://news.filefront.com/ea-ceo-confident-dragon-age-wont-be-a-risk/"]The CEO of EA trying to reassure investors though made Bioware look...er well...read:[/url]

“(Dragon Age) speaks to a very, very, very important audience,” said Riccitiello. “This is a core RPG created for fans that love (BioWare), and it’s about dragons. This is not risky. This is an audience that we know, that we can deliver for and generate very substantial profits by doing so.”

"[i]it's about dragons[/i]..." That sound you heard is developer/writer David Gaider's head crashing through his monitor.

For a company that will need to make some efforts to not be swallowed up by the EA machine in the long run, that's a shaky start.

[Werthead]

It's at this point that it needs to be reiterated that the person who said KotOR 3 was a MMORPG was an embittered ex-LucasArts programmer (not BioWare) who'd just been sacked having finished his work on [i]The Force Unleashed[/i]. It is possible:

1) He said this to stir up some trouble for LucasArts.

2) That a KotOR-setting MMORPG is in development by BioWare but it won't be KotOR 3, on the grounds that that doesn't really make sense as a title (although that never stopped [i]Final Fantasy XI[/i], granted). A KotOR-setting MMORPG would not necessarily preclude a 'proper' KotOR 3 coming out at a later date, just as Blizzard have occasionally said that at some point they will make a [i]WarCraft IV[/i] and wouldn't be put off doing that by the presence of WoW.

I was just thinking that actually the best setting for a KotOR MMORPG and the best way to avoid fan rage would be to set it during the Mandalorian Wars, prior to KotOR 1, and without precluding any third game in the series later on. That would be quite awesome :)

[Ender]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1410072' date='Jun 21 2008, 20.12']I was just thinking that actually the best setting for a KotOR MMORPG and the best way to avoid fan rage would be to set it during the Mandalorian Wars, prior to KotOR 1, and without precluding any third game in the series later on. That would be quite awesome :)[/quote]

Agreed, that would be awesome. Although, I think I'd actually prefer a single-player CRPG to wrap up the story followed up with the MMO a decade or two later (story-wise) as the Jedi Order is reestablishing itself and the galaxy rebuilding after all the war its been through. The Mandalorian Wars would be great as well though, and there's plenty of content in the just-pre-KotOR1 period to draw from.

The tiny bits and pieces of news here and there pieced together from all around the interwebs hint this Bioware-LA MMO is Lucas Art's answer to KotOR3. I've hoped since the partnership was made official back last year that it wouldn't be how they decided to tie up the CRPG story--which means it almost certainly will be :( Bioware does make great games, but my faith in LA's franchise management is almost nil.

[diabloblanco18]

[quote name='Ender' post='1410068' date='Jun 21 2008, 18.05']“(Dragon Age) speaks to a very, very, very important audience,” said Riccitiello. “This is a core RPG created for fans that love (BioWare), and it’s about dragons. This is not risky. This is an audience that we know, that we can deliver for and generate very substantial profits by doing so.”

"[i]it's about dragons[/i]..." That sound you heard is developer/writer David Gaider's head crashing through his monitor.

For a company that will need to make some efforts to not be swallowed up by the EA machine in the long run, that's a shaky start.[/quote]

Eh. It's the CEO of a vast company that produces tons of games every year. Him having no fucking clue what the game is about beyond the title is to be expected. I don't think his (idiotic) statements have any bearing on the actual design team.

[quote name='Werthead' post='1410072' date='Jun 21 2008, 18.12']I was just thinking that actually the best setting for a KotOR MMORPG and the best way to avoid fan rage would be to set it during the Mandalorian Wars, prior to KotOR 1, and without precluding any third game in the series later on. That would be quite awesome :)[/quote]

Given that pretty much all the Jedi were dead by the time KotOR 2 ended, I'd say that pre-KotOR would be the [i]only[/i] possible setting.

[potsherds]

Alls I can say is, I'm stoked! Bring on the nifty new fantasy RPG. 2009 is too long a wait! I'll probably need a new computer for it, too. :unsure:

[Krafus]

Ender;

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one around here who feels that way about a KotOR MMORPG. :)

[quote]Of the original series' biggest strengths, none of them can be satisfied by an MMO with any consistancy. Unless of course Bioware can actually pull some magic out of its ass and really come up with things that were not previously concievable for MMOs.[/quote]

Even if the KotOR MMORPG is full of innovations and is the next WoW in terms of popular appeal and ease of use, an inescapable fact is that you'll be sharing a server with thousands of obnoxious people who don't care at all about role-playing.

Werthead;

True, a KotOR-based MMORPG need not mean that a single-player KotOR RPG won't be made in the future... But I wanted it now, not in another four years. A KotOR single-player RPG will Mass Effect-like graphis... That would have been pure awesome. A MMORPG, OTOH, appeals to me not at all. :(

And here's a little more fuel for the fire about KotOR 3 being a MMORPG:

[url="http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/New_KOTOR_MMO_Rumors_115440.asp"]http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/N...mors_115440.asp[/url]

[Derfel Cadarn]

On the subject of EA-ineptness I forgot to add Westwood as another studio bought over and ruined.

Knights of the Old Republic is a rather vague title. It doesn't need to be set around the KotOR/KotOR2 era. To justify the title all they need to do is have it set pre-Revenge of the Sith and have Jedi in it.

The main problem with it being mmorpg would be the playerbase, but there's always the faint hope they'l take a leaf out of Codemaster's book and enforce a strict Roleplay server, which they did for Lord of the Rings Online (CM are the publishers of LOTRO in Europe). The officer European RP server of LOTRO is properly enforced. They don't tell people how to play the game but they do enforce the rules that there be no /OOC talk in the /say channel, and they enforce the naming policy.

I'm curious how many classes/races there would be in a KotOR mmorpg. I'm assuming Jedi, Sith and some soldier classes for Mandalorians.

I'm confidant Bioware won't make the same mistakes that SOE made with SWG. Setting it in between ANW and ESB was a poor decision. They were limited by the storyline. By rights the Rebels should have been forced to fight an insurgency campaign and there should have been no Jedi. Instead we had the Rebels/Imperials being equal, and every decision they made with regards to Jedi was wrong. Jedi should never have been in the game. The grind to get to Jedi burned out too many players, the penalties for dying as a Jedi werent fun, and forcing Jedi-players to avoid other players is contrary to the spirit of a MMOG. There were far too many classes in the game, they made it needlessly complicated. They never succeeded in balancing the classes. The storyline never moved on either. The NGE was horrificly implemented but the initial game was flawed from the start.

[Relic]

If KoToR3 was to be an MMO id be hugely disappointed. And i say this as a person who's spent alot of time on WoW.

[Robb19]

Using KOTOR for the MMORPG is basically LucasArts saying, "We fucked the entire Star Wars brand so badly that we have to rely on an engine that is successful even without our name attached."

If only Galaxies were even mediocre...if only...

I am excited for Dragon Age, though, and I think the Riccitello quote is about as honest as it gets.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Marko Triskelic' post='1410723' date='Jun 22 2008, 16.54']I just can't understand why a KoTor III RPG wouldn't be a no-brainer. Make the thing already.[/quote]

It could be because Luca$Art$ sees more potential revenue in a competently-done MMORPG (which is what it would likely be, at the very least, with Bioware developing it) than in a single-player game. Remember, these are the same greedy [censored] who forced Obisidian's hand and had KotOR II go gold in time for the Christmas 2004 season even though the game needed months more of polish.

When KotOR II was first announced, I remember thinking with a worried frown "Even if Obsidian doesn't need to spend time on the engine, how can they possibly deliver a game as good as the first one in just a year?" As it turned out, Occam's razor, which says that the simplest solution is the best, applied. They couldn't, and all gamers were that much the poorer, in both gaming experience and money. :(

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

I'm confused. Where's the Dragon Age discussion?