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The Dark Knight part deux


Mexal

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[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1447026' date='Jul 19 2008, 12.54']Comic Book Fix: Harvey Dent is dead, but Two-Face lives in Arkham Asylum.[/quote]

They may have to do this, if only because now they can't use Ledger in the third one. Still, if they planned to allow Two-Face to survive, it would have been nice if they had told us by the end of the movie, so that when he appears in the third one it doesn't come out of nowhere.

As for the Scarecrow scene, it was probably the only one I disliked- A Scarecrow scene isn't a Scarecrow scene without some fear gas, and I wish he had a slightly bigger cameo with more lines. Oh well. I'm not going to complain, because this really is the best movie I've seen since... probably Fellowship of the Ring.
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[quote]A Scarecrow scene isn't a Scarecrow scene without some fear gas,[/quote]

Actually, he does spray someone as he's scrambling to get into the van. It might not have been fear gas, but the canister was the same. I would have liked him to have more lines too, though.

I find it funny though, in an utterly nerdy way, that Scarecrow had a cameo. The thing that popped into my mind was from one of the comics, when Batman's talking to Dr. Crane (pre-Scarecrow days) about how to stay ahead of the Joker. Crane replies with something like "Silly man in a suit, you can't!" I doubt that played into the cameo at all, but it made me giggle.
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[quote name='dits' post='1445760' date='Jul 18 2008, 14.33']Heath Ledgar was effing brillliant as the Joker. His Joker was psychotic yet oddly charismatic. Couldn't take my eyes off the screen whenever he was on it.[/quote]
You know, I didn't realize it at the time, but you're definitely right. I was completely fixated on the Joker while he was on screen. And yeah, such a brilliant performance, and so damned psychotic, it's understandable that the role gave Ledger problems.

[quote name='The Humble Asskicker' post='1446187' date='Jul 18 2008, 18.22']Here's another thing: how did this movie getting a PG-13?[/quote]
No sex or naughty bits shown. The MPAA is run by a bunch of prudish puritans, and this [i]is[/i] America.


Eckhart's performance was also superb, although it's quite likely to be overlooked with Ledger's performance being too good to be true. I was very, [i]very[/i] impressed with Nolan's take on the origin of Two-Face, and the Joker's comment "All it takes is a little push" really hearkened to [i]The Killing Joke[/i]'s 'All it takes is one bad day.'






[quote name='LugaJetBoyGirl' post='1446274' date='Jul 18 2008, 19.27']some of my fave moments:

- the pencil disappearing
- the Joker as a nurse, with the hand sanitizer - amazing
- the two ferries bit - that was f'ed up
- the joker and batman sitting at a table talking to eachother, at the police station - it was mesmorizing
- the clown masks were super creepy - the hostages as clowns was a twist i didn't see coming
- [b]the 'you complete me' speech[/b]
- that whole thing with the snitch who was trying to rat out bruce wayne, and the joker's threat to him live on air

okay, wait, there was just too much crazy awesomeness to even list all my favorite parts. i haven't even been able to digest it all.

for some reason, though, the music didn't bother me, i was pretty floored by the score, actually.[/quote]
The music could've been slightly softer, I think. It wasn't terrible, but I do remember noticing it above the action on the screen twice.

As for your list, I agree with it entirely, and could add more for certain. But the one I bolded I was [i]very[/i] happy to see/hear in the movie. One of the most important dynamics in the comics is how the Joker is Batman's most important enemy, for how much alike they are (both freaks, among other things), and that sort of conversation happens rather often between the two of them. I personally think it's a very important aspect of their relationship, so I was hoping Nolan would put that in. If Nolan were to continue making good movies in the Batman franchise, I would've expected another Joker movie somewhere down the road, and were Nolan to decide to introduce Cat Woman ever, I'd expect it to be in that particular movie. Sadly, with Ledger's death, we'll never get to see such a superb villain again. :( There were many times while watching this movie that I sorely missed Ledger. Such wonderful talent.
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[quote name='Mexal' post='1446690' date='Jul 19 2008, 04.03']Couple of things.

First, I think they left it open cause they were going to bring him back in the next movie.

Second, he rescued Dent because the Joker fucked with him and gave him the opposite address. He knew that he'd go after Rachel so he said Rachel was really at Dent's address and vice versa.

And I think if they flipped the switch on the detonator, it would have blown them up since that's something the Joker would have done.[/quote]
Agree with the first point. I totally missed the second point. I was completely convinced of your third point, and was actually expecting the ferry of 'good' folks to blow themselves up.


[quote name='smegma' post='1446906' date='Jul 19 2008, 15.03']I wonder if Dent is still alive, I think reading ASOIAF has helped me look for hints and loopholes in everything I read/see and I saw a couple of "hints" but not "commitments" about him being alive -

They never actually say he is dead, they only "pay tribute" to him (I don't think, I will need to confirm on a second viewing)
They set up earlier in the movie when the mob boss doesn't die from the three story fall, and it was about that height maybe for Dent's fall? Again will need to confirm
The coin falls with the favorable side up as he is falling, meaning it was "his lucky day".
So he very well could be alive, or could be dead...I guess we'll find out!

I'm going to go see it again tomorrow I think, the more I stew on the film the more taken over by how fantastic it is.[/quote]
Personally, I was rather sure he was alive...I mean, it was a short fall and Two-Face and Batman's relationship hasn't been played out all the way yet, so there's plenty left for another movie. I think your best point actually is the coin landing favourably. I didn't think of it at the time, but I think it's a nice little hint that he's not gone yet.
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[quote name='potsherds' post='1447292' date='Jul 19 2008, 18.50']Personally, I was rather sure he was alive...I mean, it was a short fall and Two-Face and Batman's relationship hasn't been played out all the way yet, so there's plenty left for another movie. I think your best point actually is the coin landing favourably. I didn't think of it at the time, but I think it's a nice little hint that he's not gone yet.[/quote]

I didn't catch that. I remember noticing it but I didn't think anything about it. Good point.
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Something else I forgot to mention, and this is likely just a fan girl squeeing.

When Bruce Wayne asked if his new suit would protect against dogs, the reply was that it would protect against cats. I didn't really understand that reply as anything but a reference to a certain cat burglar. :dunno: The reply just seemed unusual. I personally don't see how Nolan could do Catwoman effectively, honestly, so I doubt I'll ever get to see her in one of his films.
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[quote name='potsherds' post='1447298' date='Jul 19 2008, 18.03']When Bruce Wayne asked if his new suit would protect against dogs, the reply was that it would protect against cats. I didn't really understand that reply as anything but a reference to a certain cat burglar. :dunno: The reply just seemed unusual. I personally don't see how Nolan could do Catwoman effectively, honestly, so I doubt I'll ever get to see her in one of his films.[/quote]

Honestly, I think we'd've needed to see Selina Kyle previously established somehow in either of the first two films to get Catwoman into a future movie effectively. Just my opinion on that though.

The Riddler needs to be the next villan that Nolan does, if he does a third Batman movie.
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[quote name='potsherds' post='1447289' date='Jul 19 2008, 18.39']No sex or naughty bits shown. The MPAA is run by a bunch of prudish puritans, and this [i]is[/i] America.[/quote]

This rather bothered me. It seemed far too scary and terrifying to be PG-13. I mean, come on, the pencil part? The guy being burned alive on top of a pile of money? The bomb in the guy's guts? The creepy creepy chill inducing knife at the mouth?

It all goes back to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - a totally terrifying movie that was so inappropriate for children, but it was the hands on the statue's boobs that got it an R rating. Ridiculous.


[quote name='potsherds' post='1447289' date='Jul 19 2008, 18.39']As for your list, I agree with it entirely, and could add more for certain. But the one I bolded I was [i]very[/i] happy to see/hear in the movie. One of the most important dynamics in the comics is how the Joker is Batman's most important enemy, for how much alike they are (both freaks, among other things), and that sort of conversation happens rather often between the two of them. I personally think it's a very important aspect of their relationship, so I was hoping Nolan would put that in. If Nolan were to continue making good movies in the Batman franchise, I would've expected another Joker movie somewhere down the road, and were Nolan to decide to introduce Cat Woman ever, I'd expect it to be in that particular movie. Sadly, with Ledger's death, we'll never get to see such a superb villain again. :( There were many times while watching this movie that I sorely missed Ledger. Such wonderful talent.[/quote]

I completely agree. I think the only thing that could have made it better was if we saw more of Bruce Wayne/Batman as he struggled with becoming a monster - he just wasn't in the movie enough to get that character development in.
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[quote name='LugaJetBoyGirl' post='1447325' date='Jul 19 2008, 20.10']This rather bothered me. It seemed far too scary and terrifying to be PG-13. I mean, come on, the pencil part? The guy being burned alive on top of a pile of money? The bomb in the guy's guts? The creepy creepy chill inducing knife at the mouth?

It all goes back to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - a totally terrifying movie that was so inappropriate for children, but it was the hands on the statue's boobs that got it an R rating. Ridiculous.[/quote]

You didn't see any of it. You saw the bomb there then they cut to the boom. You saw the pencil, guys head hit the ground and disappear. You didn't see the pencil in him or it really inserting. It was fast. The guy being burned alive...you saw the guy up there, the money, the fire, but not the guy actually burning. That's how they kept it at a PG-13. No blood or guts.
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[quote name='dits' post='1447322' date='Jul 20 2008, 00.05']The Penguin, Riddler and Catwoman are the most iconic members of Batman's rogues gallery that seem to make the most sense in Nolan's realistic approach to the Batman movies.[/quote]
Huh. You mean you see how Nolan could spin them properly into a serious instead of campy movie? I'm not sure the Penguin could be, personally. But I know little about the backstory of either him or the Riddler.
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[quote name='Mexal' post='1447327' date='Jul 19 2008, 20.13']You didn't see any of it. You saw the bomb there then they cut to the boom. You saw the pencil, guys head hit the ground and disappear. You didn't see the pencil in him or it really inserting. It was fast. The guy being burned alive...you saw the guy up there, the money, the fire, but not the guy actually burning. That's how they kept it at a PG-13. No blood or guts.[/quote]

Well, it still scared the crap out of me, and I'm 30 :)
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[quote name='Intercept' post='1447032' date='Jul 19 2008, 13.00']Two-Face was sent to Arkham. It isn't an Asylum anymore. If you watch Gotham Knight, you find out that between the first and the second movie, the entire Narrows have been caged off and quarantined. The whole island is a prison. The police just watch the gates and the prisoners govern themselves.[/quote]

Is Gotham Knight considered canon?

I have no nitpicks to add, I was simply transfixed, and shocked, and my mind is still blown. Heath Ledger... OH MY GOD. Alex de Large vs. Lenny Bruce vs. Iggy Pop vs. SATAN...in one character. Oh my god. :cry:
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[quote name='dits' post='1447322' date='Jul 19 2008, 20.05']The Penguin, Riddler and Catwoman are the most iconic members of Batman's rogues gallery that seem to make the most sense in Nolan's realistic approach to the Batman movies.[/quote]

Uch, no Penguin please. He'd be horribly out of place, even as the mobster he's portrayed as in most of the comics (and lets not even talk about Burton's version)- he's an irritating and dull villain and I still don't understand why he's considered to be one of the Batman greats.

Thinking over the movie, I've got to give credit to the Nolan brothers for really improving on Begins' script problems. I love Begins, but there are about 10-15 lines in there that make me cringe everytime I hear them. The Dark Knight had about 1 or 2, and even they weren't so bad, something for which I'm very grateful. And though this one had its own sort of hole (umm... did the Joker just leave the Dent party after he knocked Rachel out of the window?), at least it wasn't something like Bruce Wayne stating that he will never be a killer and then burning down an entire building in which just about everyone is likely to die. So, good job to the Nolans and David Goyer.
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Wow...just fucking brilliant. Ledger's performance will become iconic. Eckhart's Dent was memorable. A dark and violent film. Gruesome without actual gore. Sinister as all hell and almost never really pulling punches. (except the ferries. I think the Joker was right on this, in a real world situation one of those buttons is getting pushed within 5 minutes)

The Joker: Fucking masterful. Cunning, charismatic, psychotic, sadistic and masochistic. Just about as evil as you can be. Its a fucking travesty that we will never see that character on screen again. A huge loss to the industry that we'll never see Ledger on screen again.

Can we nitpick? Sure. The fight scenes weren't terribly imaginative. Who gives a fuck, this movie had so much going for it that you'd want to skip even the most brilliantly choreographed fight scenes to get to the next Joker rant. Was Bruce Wayne a tad bit shortchanged? Yeah, but we had enough Wayne in the last film and the Wayneless parts were filled with Dent and the Joker. Given their performances, I'll take that tradeoff and I fucking love Bale. Caine/Alfred was a bit weak (in fact he really seemed to be phoning it in, I didn't like his performance), so what? I honestly feel sorry for people who gives that sort of shit more than a moment's thought. Those who let it in anyway impact the total experience that was this film.

This is the first time in a long ass time that I've come out of a theater completely wowed. It was hyped to hell and back, it lived up to it and more. I'm in fucking awe right now.




This wasn't just a movie about villains, cars and explosions. This covered alot of the themes that the Watchmen and others have. Is humanity basically decent? Or is the Joker correct that given the proper shove, they're no better than him, that they'd resort to anarchy and any means of self-preservation.

The very first scene asks the question of what makes Batman so righteous. Why does he get to walk outside the law to fix the problems that need fixing? Because (as he mentions to the copycat batman's) he's not wearing hockey-pads? Because he's a more capable, better funded ubermensch who we should trust our safety and security to? There very much was a 'who watches the Watchmen' vibe to this.

And the fact is, to some extent, the Joker did win. Their golden boy who was supposed to lead a newly defiant, self-reliant city into the light turned bad. But he did so even before Rachael's death. Encouraging a vigilante to subvert the law to bring back a criminal (asian guy) he wants. Nearly capping one of the Joker's goons before he stops him. Even before his personal tragedy Dent was willing to commit to means that might have been justified by the ends, but were still no less illegal and ruthless. He was not the white knight they hoped he would be.

And Batman? He clung to his one 'don't kill' code but that's about it. He compromised everything else to bring down the joker. Became a near fascist with his city-wide surveillance program that the Bush Admin. would cream themselves over. Treated the people to a pleasing lie at the end because he deemed they were too weak and immature to handle the truth. Who is he to make these decisions for us? Why should he be trusted with this power over all others?

And back to the joker. The calculated chaos. Meticulously planned anarchy. Social experiments with devastating consequences. Mindfucks galore. I fucking loved this character.


Man. I am absolutely seeing this again.
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[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1447317' date='Jul 19 2008, 19.51']Honestly, I think we'd've needed to see Selina Kyle previously established somehow in either of the first two films to get Catwoman into a future movie effectively. Just my opinion on that though.

The Riddler needs to be the next villan that Nolan does, if he does a third Batman movie.[/quote]I would like to see a return of Ra's al-Ghul along with his daughter (aka Batman's love).
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[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1447360' date='Jul 19 2008, 21.14']I would like to see a return of Ra's al-Ghul along with his daughter (aka Batman's love).[/quote]

I seriously doubt we'll see Ras again. He had his come back to life moment during the party in Wayne manor ('..are his methods supernatural?.."). The daughter is interesting. You could make a case where she's almost like a sister figure with Bruce but also his enemy. Also doubtful though since she's not widely known.

What villain can be as entertainingly evil as a psychotic, serial killing clown? What actor is going to measure up to the bar that Ledger's set? In the last scene when the Joker says he can see them (Batman and Joker) doing this again over and over.. well, my heart stopped a bit when I realized this was the last we would ever see of this Joker. It would have been great to have him in a 3rd film in whatever capacity he could play.
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[quote name='WarGalley' post='1447369' date='Jul 20 2008, 02.32']What villain can be as entertainingly evil as a psychotic, serial killing clown? What actor is going to measure up to the bar that Ledger's set? [b]In the last scene when the Joker says he can see them (Batman and Joker) doing this again over and over..[/b] well, my heart stopped a bit when I realized this was the last we would ever see of this Joker. It would have been great to have him in a 3rd film in whatever capacity he could play.[/quote]
Ah yes. That moment very clearly said to me that Nolan had planned to bring back the Joker, given the opportunity. An opportunity that will never occur, now.


[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1447360' date='Jul 20 2008, 02.14']I would like to see a return of Ra's al-Ghul along with his daughter (aka Batman's love).[/quote]
This is actually what I'd expect next. I think it [i]much[/i] more likely as a workable story line for Nolan's vision.
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