Jaqen H'ghar

[Wevets]

I just finished rereading the last Arya chapter with Jaqen and a couple things stick out.


1) He knows who she is, even calls her "my lady of Stark". how does he know? The only ones that know, at that time, who she really is are Gendry and Hot Pie. I don't think it can be from her looks, considering she is surrounded by Lannister man and lords, you would think one of them would have puzzled out who she was if her looks would give her away.

2) When he changes his looks after the bit with the soup, his manner of speaking changes. He loses the "accent" as it where of Braavos.

[Miriel]

[quote name='mormont' post='1466202' date='Aug 2 2008, 04.34']Miriel: yeah, the last sentence wasn't addressed to you. :)

I agree I can sort of see where people at least get the idea of S=J.[/quote]
Awww .... Thanks Mormont! I feel vindicated now :)

Wevets: as to your first question, I think that by the time he calls Arya a Stark, he has overheard her yell "Winterfell" during the fight and he knows her father was executed as a traitor (overheard her mention that in conversation w/ Yoren while he was chained to the wagon). Plus, he has clearly observed she is a disguised girl being aided/taken North by the Night's Watch--all these things added together make it not too big a leap to get to that she is the fallen Hand's daughter.

[Roi Woodt]

Mormont,
[quote]Because he doesn't know who Syrio is?[/quote]
Since you state this so clearly, I assume Jaqen only told Arya that th first sword of Braavos does not run. I thought he shouted it to her and could easily be overheard by Trant, but I am probably wrong,


[quote]There is no reason at all that Trant would recognise the First Sword of Braavos, current or former.[/quote]
Although, Trant could have figured out that his opponent was an extremely well fighter. He must have wondered why such a man was a dancing master and ready to defend a Stark until his death.

[quote]There is similarly no indication that Cersei knows who he was - or that either of them even know his name. Which is odd, if he was taken prisoner. If that had happened, surely they would have identified him? So I tend to take Cersei's remark as further proof against Syrio=Jaqen, actually.[/quote]
Another question then, killed or captured, do you think that Trant told Cercei that the dancing master killed some of his men with a wooden stick?

[quote]ps you never know. If FM can fake their death, maybe that can make S=J work.[/quote]
Syrio = Jon, that’s a new one, good thinking, we can forget about Rhaegar and Lyanna ;)

[MaesterLuwin]

[quote name='mormont' post='1465873' date='Aug 1 2008, 18.21']Because he doesn't know who Syrio is?

There is no reason at all that Trant would recognise the First Sword of Braavos, current or former. There is similarly no indication that Cersei knows who he was - or that either of them even know his name. Which is odd, if he was taken prisoner. If that had happened, surely they would have identified him? So I tend to take Cersei's remark as further proof [i]against[/i] Syrio=Jaqen, actually.[/quote]

Ah, but Syrio shouts "The First Sword of Braavos does not run!" when Meryn and the Lannisters attack him. Surely that, plus his skill with the wooden stick, would have meant that Meryn figured out who this man was, even if he didn't know at the start of the fight? It is implied that Syrio was well-known enough in the city to have an "excellent reputation."

I don't buy that Syrio is Jaqen, but after reading this thread it it does seem strange to me that there is so little background regarding Syrio, and that hardly anyone else in King's Landing seems to take notice of him or his death. Everyone seems to know Jalabhar Xho, for example, and Jalabhar seems a lot less memorable.

[mormont]

[quote name='MaesterLuwin' post='1467399' date='Aug 4 2008, 08.44']Ah, but Syrio shouts "The First Sword of Braavos does not run!" when Meryn and the Lannisters attack him. Surely that, plus his skill with the wooden stick, would have meant that Meryn figured out who this man was, even if he didn't know at the start of the fight? It is implied that Syrio was well-known enough in the city to have an "excellent reputation."[/quote]

No, not buying that. Syrio shouts, yes. But at that moment Trant is not necessarily paying attention to what he's saying. He has his helmet down with his visor on, also: and I can tell you from experience that is a major hindrance to clear hearing. ;)

As to figuring out his identity from his skill: I just don't see Trant as the deductive type. He sees Syrio kill his men, after all, but exhibits no signs of being amazed or curious. His reaction is, if anything, rather matter-of-fact: 'right, I'll have to kill you myself'. I can't recall Trant ever showing a spirit of inquiry at any other time in the books either. He's just not that kind of guy: rather the opposite, in fact. Cersei, too, is happier to believe what is convenient than to inquire into loose ends. 'The guy is dead, who cares who he was?' would, I believe, be the prevailing philosophy around the Red Keep.

[quote]I don't buy that Syrio is Jaqen, but after reading this thread it it does seem strange to me that there is so little background regarding Syrio, and that hardly anyone else in King's Landing seems to take notice of him or his death. Everyone seems to know Jalabhar Xho, for example, and Jalabhar seems a lot less memorable.[/quote]

But Xho is a long-standing fixture around court: a man of royal blood who participates in tourneys and important social occasions. He is socially significant. Syrio is a former First Sword, a man of common blood who apparently hasn't been around for long and whose only important quality is skill with a weapon which is of little significance in Westerosi culture. The noble characters we mostly spend time with in King's Landing have no real reason to have heard of him.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote]'The guy is dead, who cares who he was?'[/quote]
"The guy is thrown into the black cells, who cares who he was?", would work as well. Either they want to figure out who he was/is, death or alive, or they don't care. Seeing Cercei's reaction, they don't care. black cells + unknown person = death.

[Morrigan]

[quote name='Sarella' post='1458549' date='Jul 27 2008, 21.10']Coldhands is Bloodraven[/quote]
Wait, what? Was with you until then.
Isn't Bloodraven, like, hardly ever mentioned in the main books and mostly in The Sworn Sword? The others are connections easily made but this is a tad obscure for even big fans, let alone casual readers.



[quote name='Miriel' post='1461245' date='Jul 29 2008, 17.19']Somewhere (SSM) is the "back-story" of both Rorge and Biter. It was something about how Rorge was always a bad guy, who ran some kind of dodgy animal fighting ring in KL. He took Biter in as an orphan and raised him and he was the one who had filed Biter's teeth in order for him to better fight w/ the animals.[/quote]
Any citation for that? I would find it strange that GRRM would reveal backstory about two characters ONLY in SSM. He has clarified things in SSM, true, but this stuff you're talking about, to my recollection, is not mentioned in any way anywhere in the entire series.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Morrigan' post='1468372' date='Aug 4 2008, 20.59']Isn't Bloodraven, like, hardly ever mentioned in the main books and mostly in The Sworn Sword? The others are connections easily made but this is a tad obscure for even big fans, let alone casual readers.[/quote]
I don't think it's obscure for big fans at all. It's just not[i] too[/i] obvious, as Benjen being CH would be.
[quote]Any citation for that? I would find it strange that GRRM would reveal backstory about two characters ONLY in SSM. He has clarified things in SSM, true, but this stuff you're talking about, to my recollection, is not mentioned in any way anywhere in the entire series.[/quote]
[url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1400/"]Yes. [/url] Find it as strange as you like, but it's happened on other occasions.

[Morrigan]

Thanks for the link. It does say "as-yet-unwritten" backstory so I'm presuming it's something he does intend to write about at some point, and not just something he mentions in interviews just to be able to answer questions.

As I said in the thread about Coldhands=Bloodraven, I'm actually fairly convinced that's true now. :) It's not *too* (but still somewhat) obscure for big fans but it IS obscure for casual readers.

[Too Good To Be True]

Jaqen=Ned. It is known. Ahahaha.

[Raff the Sweetling]

I dont think Jaqen = Syrio for two simple reasons, the fact that it would be hard to pretend to be the first sword of Bravvos and pull it off. Swordfighting doesnt seem to be Jaqen's style. Secondly, when the guards come for Arya, she yells "RUN!" and Syrio simply says "the first sword of Bravvos does not run." Now at this point Jaqen would have no obligation to Arya and he seems alot smarter than to try and fight outnumbered with a wooden sword. I see no benifit for this action for a FM. Even if he was supposed to be protecting Arya, this isnt how one would go about it in my opinion.

I do think a FM killed a man named Jaqen that was traveling with Rorge and Biter. And I say they must have seen him do it because for some reason, Rorge and Biter seem to defer to him. Even Arya said at one point when she first saw them that the one with the red and white hair was obviously the leader. Even when Jaqen helped her with her "weasel soup" he got Rorge and Biter to help. They would have rather killed Arya than help, but Jaqen was the man. Maybe Jaqen was kind of the leader anyway and they dont know he's someone different now, but they sure dont seem like the type to be following orders and being wary of another man. For some reason they seemed know better than to mess with Jaqen.
(maybe)

[Guest Other-in-law]

I have to agree that Syrio's chance of successfully yielding after killing/maiming some Lannister guards is nil. Are we to assume that Septa Mordane was only killed because she fought tooth and nail and wouldn't yield? The orders were probably to take Lord Stark and his daughters alive, and kill everyone else who was part of his faction. Otherwise, Septa Mordane would still be alive wouldn't she? If you're going to kill [i]Septas[/i], for heavens sake, why on earth would you waste a seconds thought about killing some lowly slob who has the audacity to [i]fight back[/i]?

How Jaqen ended up in the dungeons and what he was doing in KL is still a mystery, though. I'm completely unconvinced that it was some sort of ploy to smuggle him into the NW. That would be about as necessary as plotting out an elaborate scheme to buy a piece of pigeon pie from a street vendor. Why bother, when you can just go up and do it openly and nobody will give a fig? It's not like the NW is so over-manned that they're turning able-bodied men away...they'll take [i]anyone[/i].

So I think he must have been caught committing some crime serious enough to go into the Black Cells (not the common ward on the ground level for petty criminals to be kept together). Given that he's a Faceless Man, one would expect this crime to have been especially noteworthy, but I have no idea what it could have been.

[Burr]

Obviously our FM was on his way to Oldtown when he got clapped in the dungeons. I'm thinking for some reason he couldn't get away from kings landing and chose his guise to get himself out... Wasn't KL locked down at this point?

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Soloman Grundy' post='1471175' date='Aug 7 2008, 00.33']Obviously our FM was on his way to Oldtown when he got clapped in the dungeons. I'm thinking for some reason he couldn't get away from kings landing and chose his guise to get himself out... Wasn't KL locked down at this point?[/quote]
I'm not so sure that it's [i]obvious[/i] that he was going to Oldtown, but it's certainly possible. KL was locked down, but that was well after Jaqen was put in (and then released from) the Black Cells. He, Rorge, and Biter were given to the NW by Ned Stark when he was still in power, before Robert's death and the subsequent power struggle and lockdown.

Even if JH was simply headed for Oldtown, why would he have gotten put in the [i]Black Cells[/i]? That's pretty much the place for those jailed for capital crimes, not minor stuff. Rorge and Biter almost certainly would have had murder charges against them, for instance.

[Olenna]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1471204' date='Aug 7 2008, 01.11']Even if JH was simply headed for Oldtown, why would he have gotten put in the [i]Black Cells[/i]? That's pretty much the place for those jailed for capital crimes, not minor stuff.[/quote]

Is it possible that Jaqen screwed up on his last assignment, whatever it was, and got caught in the act? FM are human, after all.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Olenna' post='1471211' date='Aug 7 2008, 01.22']Is it possible that Jaqen screwed up on his last assignment, whatever it was, and got caught in the act? FM are human, after all.[/quote]
Oh, I think that's quite likely. My question is '[i]what was[/i] that last assignment?' Hiring a FM is no trivial affair; it should have been a major deal whatever it was. Some have suggested that Varys (or someone else) hired him to kill Jon Arryn, but that doesn't sound quite right to me. If there was a duplicate plot against Arryn, JH would have been beaten to the punch by Lysa, leaving him with nothing to get arrested for.

The circumstances sort of pull it in odd directions. Getting caught sounds like it would have been a bloody messy, while hiring a FM sounds like either a very difficult to reach target, or a squeamish client who doesn't want to be connected to it or deal with common thugs. We have heard of an ordinary merchant hiring a FM to bump off his wife, but maybe he couldn't bring himself to do the deed, or was afraid of trouble with the law.

[Miriel]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1471227' date='Aug 7 2008, 01.00']Some have suggested that Varys (or someone else) hired him to kill Jon Arryn, but that doesn't sound quite right to me. If there was a duplicate plot against Arryn, JH would have been beaten to the punch by Lysa, leaving him with nothing to get arrested for.[/quote]
That is assuming he is in the Black Cells for a legitimate purpose ([i]i.e[/i]. arrested for a really nasty crime). But if he had been hired by Varys, and Vary= 'Rugen the gaoler who has sole charge of the Black Cells', then it becomes somewhat more likely he might be there as a result of some plot by Varys, and not some crime. Especially after we learned from Longwaters that only a very few people had been in the Black Cells at all in the recent past (Tyrion, Ned, Pycelle, and Biter, Rorge, and Jaqen-- High born traitors, unbearably dangerous pschospaths, and the mysterious Jaqen).

In favour of this is that no POV character ever thinks of anything really nasty someone had recently been arrested for, as might be expected had a FM been up to some shenanigans in KL--b/c I agree a FM and his doings is almost a big deal by definition. (Against of course is that no one thinks about Rorge or Biter either).

I just think a FM in the Black Cells might serve to explain why Illyrio thinks Varys has assassinated a Hand ("You have danced the dance before my friend").

The whole Jaqen thing is a big puzzle. I can't wait to find out the answer!

[Burr]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1471204' date='Aug 6 2008, 22.11']I'm not so sure that it's [i]obvious[/i] that he was going to Oldtown, but it's certainly possible. KL was locked down, but that was well after Jaqen was put in (and then released from) the Black Cells. He, Rorge, and Biter were given to the NW by Ned Stark when he was still in power, before Robert's death and the subsequent power struggle and lockdown.

Even if JH was simply headed for Oldtown, why would he have gotten put in the [i]Black Cells[/i]? That's pretty much the place for those jailed for capital crimes, not minor stuff. Rorge and Biter almost certainly would have had murder charges against them, for instance.[/quote]


There is no evidence that Yoren made it to the cells before the big meltdown. Also, Rorge and Biter are afraid of JH, which tells me that he did SOMETHING to scare the. Could this be killing the real JH and replacing him in oprder to, again, get out and complete his mission? He maye never have been IN the black cells. We assume he is because Yoren says he got them there. But Yoren wouldn't know if a FM replaced JH after Yoren dug them out...Although I wonder why JH didn't just disappear after Arya released him from the wagon. He seemed to have recognized her and made a side trip in order to prod her into crossing the sea, THEN went back to his mission.

[Miriel]

[quote name='Soloman Grundy' post='1471613' date='Aug 7 2008, 10.54']Although I wonder why JH didn't just disappear after Arya released him from the wagon. He seemed to have recognized her and made a side trip in order to prod her into crossing the sea, THEN went back to his mission.[/quote]
I don't think he waits in order to prod her to cross the Sea .... I think he waits b/c he owes her three lives for saving him and Rorge/Biter from the fire. He does seem increasingly impatient w/ her when she takes her time choosing someone for him to kill ... implying he has somewhere he needs to be.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Soloman Grundy' post='1471613' date='Aug 7 2008, 11.54']There is no evidence that Yoren made it to the cells before the big meltdown.[/quote]
Aside from the fact that he was able to remove them on the basis of Ned Stark's approval? You think the Lannisters are going to honour orders from Ned after they've thrown [i]him[/i] in the Black Cells? Rennifer Longwaters tells us that's why they were given to Yoren:
[i]"There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, [b]but the papers were in order[/b]. I made a note of that in a report as well, you may be certain of it."[/i]
Why would they honour Ned's decision after he's been deposed and Rennifer is pestering them about it and bringing the matter to their attention? I suspect the papers would not be considered "in order" when the man whose seal is on them is now in jail as a traitor.
[quote]He maye never have been IN the black cells. We assume he is because Yoren says he got them there. But Yoren wouldn't know if a FM replaced JH after Yoren dug them out[/quote]
Maybe because he kept them in a padlocked wagon? And the fact that there is...once again....no [i]need[/i] to covertly smuggle oneself into that convoy headed for the Wall, when you can just [i]volunteer[/i] and walk alongside without the danger of burning to death while trapped inside a locked wagon?


Miriel,
[quote]In favour of this is that no POV character ever thinks of anything really nasty someone had recently been arrested for, as might be expected had a FM been up to some shenanigans in KL--b/c I agree a FM and his doings is almost a big deal by definition. (Against of course is that no one thinks about Rorge or Biter either).[/quote]
Also against it is the fact that KL is a city of a few hundred thousand, the majority of whom are beneath the notice of our highborn POVs. There's got to be all kinds of crimes committed that we hear nothing about, some of them to wealthy merchants and such.