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Jaqen H'ghar


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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1471709' date='Aug 7 2008, 10.15']Aside from the fact that he was able to remove them on the basis of Ned Stark's approval? You think the Lannisters are going to honour orders from Ned after they've thrown [i]him[/i] in the Black Cells? Rennifer Longwaters tells us that's why they were given to Yoren:
[i]"There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, [b]but the papers were in order[/b]. I made a note of that in a report as well, you may be certain of it."[/i]
Why would they honour Ned's decision after he's been deposed and Rennifer is pestering them about it and bringing the matter to their attention? I suspect the papers would not be considered "in order" when the man whose seal is on them is now in jail as a traitor.

Maybe because he kept them in a padlocked wagon? And the fact that there is...once again....no [i]need[/i] to covertly smuggle oneself into that convoy headed for the Wall, when you can just [i]volunteer[/i] and walk alongside without the danger of burning to death while trapped inside a locked wagon?[/quote]

The NW has long selected criminals as troops. Just because Stark approved Yoren's cull doesn't mean the Lannisters would stop it--after all, the Night Watch needs men. And who says Longwaters protest ever got read, or that anyone cared? He IS a pretty pain in the arsity man after all. He's not someone you would really listen to, you know? We all know people like taht...they drone on and on in intricate broing detail and no on elistens to a word they are saying. And Tyrion himself allowed another cull of the cells later on. Obviously this is a normal function. Yoren may well have pulled his levies AFTER Ned was arrested--he was to wait for Ned to take the Black as well, remember.

Your point about the padlocked wagon is a good one, but i wouldn't hink a FM would have any trouble getting into a wagon, and what better hiding place than a locked wagon with two VERY scary prisoners in it? would YOU wobble up and demand to inspect one of them? I certainly wouldn't. He might not WANT to be in "general Population" due to fear of discovery...
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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1471709' date='Aug 7 2008, 12.15']Miriel,

Also against it is the fact that KL is a city of a few hundred thousand, the majority of whom are beneath the notice of our highborn POVs. There's got to be all kinds of crimes committed that we hear nothing about, some of them to wealthy merchants and such.[/quote]
Well yeah ... okay. But that kind of argues in favour of Jaqen being in there w/ Varys/Rugen's seal of approval/knowledge. B/c how many folks in KL are hiring FM who flub up somehow? Perhaps Jaqen was kind of a discount FM? :)

Seriously though, in the Council scene LF implies a FM is too expensive really even for the crown to hire ... so who in KL hired Jaqen?

It makes the most sense to have Jaqen be connected to the larger political machinations.

You are probably right though, in that my crackpot theory won't hold up over time ... but I am fond of it and hold out hope!
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Maybe Jaqen was put into the Black Cells due to a capital crime, with no hope of release...but Varys/Rugen knew he was a FM, and so arranged to "free" him by giving him to the NW. In return for his freedom, Varys could have asked him to do a little job for him down in Oldtown...
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Miriel' post='1471844' date='Aug 7 2008, 14.50']Well yeah ... okay. But that kind of argues in favour of Jaqen being in there w/ Varys/Rugen's seal of approval/knowledge. B/c how many folks in KL are hiring FM who flub up somehow?[/quote]There's probably a fairly small number of people in Westeros who could hire any FM. As far as being in jail with Varys' approval, I don't see it. If the FM is on Varys side, why keep in jail? If he's opposed to Varys, and Varys has him at his mercy in the Black Cells, why not just kill him? It would certainly be the safest thing. I'm doubtful that Varys was aware of what JH was.

[quote]Seriously though, in the Council scene LF implies a FM is too expensive really even for the crown to hire ... so who in KL hired Jaqen?

It makes the most sense to have Jaqen be connected to the larger political machinations.[/quote]
All of that seems entirely possible to me. LF's grandfather was Braavosi, he has extensive contacts with free cities men (both mercantile and governmental), he has access to vast sums of money, the paper trail of which is too convoluted for anyone else to follow...and he seems to have a very good sense of how expensive FM prices are. And he's a ruthless, cunning conspirator. But [i]who[/i] would his intended (or actual) victim have been? He was able to orchestrate the killings of one Hand and one King without FM assistance; who would have been [i]an even more difficult target than them[/i]? I certainly can't answer that, but I remain open to the possibility that he hired JH to kill someone...

Otherwise, I think the main alternative is that JH's background just isn't germane to the story.

Thupple,
But Varys wasn't the one who arranged for JH's release. It was Ned, acting at Yoren's behest. Varys doesn't seem to have influenced that decision at all.
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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1472376' date='Aug 8 2008, 00.23']But [i]who[/i] would his intended (or actual) victim have been? He was able to orchestrate the killings of one Hand and one King without FM assistance; who would have been [i]an even more difficult target than them[/i]? .[/quote]

This is random suggestion that I haven't really thought through--but what if Littlefinger was trying to kill Varys? Varys would be a very difficult target, much more difficult than Jon Arryn or Robert.

As for why LF would want Varys dead...I don't know, maybe he's tired of being the second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms and wants to upgrade? Maybe Varys is the only person who could see through his plans and thwart them?
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Olenna' post='1472388' date='Aug 8 2008, 00.42']This is random suggestion that I haven't really thought through--but what if Littlefinger was trying to kill Varys? Varys would be a very difficult target, much more difficult than Jon Arryn or Robert.

As for why LF would want Varys dead...I don't know, maybe he's tired of being the second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms and wants to upgrade? Maybe Varys is the only person who could see through his plans and thwart them?[/quote]
Hmmmm...good candidate. I'm not altogether persuaded, but interesting idea.
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Just throwing this out there, but when Arya hears Varys and Illyrio talking, Illyrio says Varys must delay until the Khals child is born because he wont be ready to invade Westeros until then. So Varys needs to keep the peace until then. Varys goes on to say that Eddard has the "bastard book" and will soon know the truth. An idea that neither seem to like. Illyrio thinks they should kill Eddard, Varys says thats "untenable" {meaning unsupportable, unreasonable, unsound, flawed.} This was before Eddard figured it out. Once he did though, it may have been neccesary to silence Ned to keep the kings peace for the time being. That means either Varys or Illyrio could have brought Jaqen in to quiet Ned. Turns out Ned is supposed to be headed for the wall....where do we find Jaqen... strangely, in the group Ned is supposed to be in headed for the wall. Even Varys' little bird couldnt predict Joffery executing Ned, so Jaqens job was done for him.
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Also, when Varys visits Ned in the dungeon before his execution he seems rather pushy as to what Ned is going to say when given the chance.

Varys-"If you will give her (Cersei) the peace she needs and pledge to carry her secret to your grave I believe she will allow you to take the black."

Varys- "So what is your answer Lord Eddard? Give [u]ME [/u]your word that you'll tell the queen what she wants to hear when she comes calling." notice the use of ME.

Ned- "If I did, my word would be as hollow as an empty suit of armor. My life is not so precious to me as that."

Varys-"Pity."

Ned tells Varys that such a promise would be a hollow one. So Varys ties up the loose ends on puts plan B in action. Plan B= Jaqen
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Raff the Sweetling' post='1472425' date='Aug 8 2008, 01.39']Ned tells Varys that such a promise would be a hollow one. So Varys ties up the loose ends on puts plan B in action. Plan B= Jaqen[/quote]
And yet Ned actually did confess to treason to save his daughters, with the result that he would be removed from the body politic of Westerosi by banishment to the Wall.

Just not seeing any need for a secret assassin hidden inside a padlocked wagon (instead of just walking along like normal recruits) for a victim who would have already been made irrelevant.
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Varys and Ned are good candidates, good logic all around.

I can't think of anything better, but here are some random ruminations.

If we accept that JH = the alchemist = Pate "the pig boy", any theory of JH will have to account for how came to King's Landing, ended up in the black cell, took his sweet time playing soldier in the riverlands, then wound up in Oldtown, where he seems to have taken up shop.

Now, JH there could be on multiple missions in these two cities, and he may have lingered in the riverlands simply to make sure he pays back his debt to Arya, but if not, could all these stops be connected?

Oldtown is as great a port as King's Landing; if his final destination was in the Citadel, it would have been simple to take a ship from Braavos to Oldtown without a stop in KL. If his final task was in King's Landing, why do his moves in Oldtown seem so calculated?

Moreover, if he was simply acting as an assassin, with the goal of killing a single person, whats taking him so long? Why does he need the key from Pate?

It would seem to me that the hardest target to kill in Oldtown would be Leyton Hightower. He's locked himself away from his city and the world, and has apparently withheld his swords from the Tyrell cause. The key he obtained from Pate only opens doors in the Citadel, but mayhaps its the first step in finding a way into Hightower's high tower.

Who would have cause to kill Hightower? Dunno. I'm pretty sure Marwyn knows who "Pate" is, and wouldn't tolerate his presence without knowing he can trust such a dangerous man.

A final thought: what if a faceless man is hired not (only) to kill, but to impersonate? Could there be someone in KL who needed someone else impersonated (think of Tyrion's mummer who mimics Edmure's voice to lower the drawbridge at Riverrun)? Could Marwyn have hired the FM to impersonate himself while he was gone east, as he might have divined from his candle?

I can't say I've added much, the aforementioned Ned and Varys theories seem better than anything I've got.
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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1472429' date='Aug 8 2008, 01.44']Just not seeing any need for a secret assassin hidden inside a padlocked wagon (instead of just walking along like normal recruits) for a victim who would have already been made irrelevant.[/quote]

I think my theory that Varys was the intended victim may explain the padlocked wagon. Varys was too smart to get assassinated, obviously. He is in charge of the black cells, right? So he would damn sure put his would-be assassin in the maximum security cells for people who committed capital crimes, like Rorge and Biter. And he would make damn sure to get Jaqen out of there in the next shipment to the Night's Watch, in a padlocked wagon so that he couldn't abscond, return to King's Landing and try again.

But I think Raff the Sweetling's theory is more fun. Wait till Arya finds out Jaqen was sent to kill her dad!
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I hear ya. I dont neccessarily believe it all either, but its kind of fishy. Vary also tells Illyrio that Loras is writing his father to send his sister to court. Renly and Loras intend Robert to wed and bed her and make a new queen. So obviously the Tyrells see Cersei as being out of the picture soon. Why? Maybe because they know her secret, or maybe they hired a FM to do her in. What was it they found in Tyrions black cell when they searched it? Thats right, coins from Highgarden. Probably the same black cell previously occupied by one Jaqen H'ghar. Booyaa!
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if Jaqen is a FM (i belive he is) what was he doing at KL? was he on a job or was he just collecting information?

from Aryas training at the ToMFG we learn that the FM are very interested in any news. i think the FM are the best of the best because they have the best intelligence service behind them. (like Varys: his power is just knowing about everything)

if he's an a mission to kill someone: Who? the FM dont seem to mess up a job (Varys or Lf told Ned, he should be glad they did not send an FM after Danny because so she got a chance)!

and who could possibly pay a faceless men? Lf was mentioned, but he cant just take the kings money).
The FM seem to be more than just assasins, they are religious. when arya saved jaqen he said: u saved 3 men (not just himselfe but also Biter and Rorge) from death so you have to name 3 other (like jing and jang).

and now jaqen is in Oldtown at the citadel, next to sam. Arya told the old man about what happened in Bravos when sam nearly drowned. perhaps thats why hes in oldtown because they heard rumors about the dragons, and theres this dragon measter (donno his name), who doesnt think to good about the other maesters because they try to cover everything ,,magical,, up, like dragons, the others, CotF .... (by the way: i think the citadel is very powerfull because they have their birds sitting at every lord table gathering information and wispering advice; they controle the whole westeros communication system, perhabs they send a copy of each letter to oldtown? )

and as far as we know Jaqen killed some people, but all on his way to reach what he is up to, his jop his target which he hasent reached, what means to me that his target has to be someone very Big.

sorry no answers or theories just what went through my mind while reading...
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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1472376' date='Aug 7 2008, 23.23']Thupple,
But Varys wasn't the one who arranged for JH's release. It was Ned, acting at Yoren's behest. Varys doesn't seem to have influenced that decision at all.[/quote]

I have been working under the assumption that since Varys=Rugen (and because he is Varys) he is the likeliest person to have made sure the "papers were in order" (as the head gaoler says in AFFC) for the three in the black cells to go to the NW. To me, that suggested that it was unusual for prisoners in the black cells to be part of the NW roundup, which I imagine is usually fairly routine. It seemed to me that Yoren took extra precautions with these unusual prisoners that were foisted on him, and that perhaps that was not something it was anticipated he would do. Granted, this could all be my fantasy, but that is where I was coming from on that.

As to why he was in KL in the first place...nothing I can think of feels right to me on that one. No idea.
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What does everyone think of this theory? (from earlier in the thread)
[quote]Hey, I don't remember - did Ned ever write that letter to Jon? The one that told Jon of his true parentage (assuming R+L=J)?

If so, Varys would of course read it and find out that there is another with a better claim to the throne than the one (Dany) he's been toiling so long to see on it (once again, assuming R+L=married).

Not wanting his plans potentially ruined Varys would have motive to never deliver that letter and, more importantly, see Ned Stark dead. So the Spider pulls some strings in his web and gets a Faceless Man in the Black Cells to silence Ned Stark either there or on the way to the Wall. Joffery decides to execute Ned instead of letting him take the Black, as everyone anticipated he would, but it's too late for the Faceless Man who's already in chains waiting to head North by the time he learns that Ned's not accompanying them. Ironically, the daughter of the man he was supposed to kill saves his life and we all know the rest.

Of course, this all hinges on whether Varys actually learned of Jon from such a letter (assuming R+L=J).[/quote]
And...
[quote post='1460914' date='Jul 29 2008, 12.25']Mormont,

What do you think of the idea that Varys put a Faceless Man in the Black Cells to kill Eddard either there (which would be messier in terms of repercussions) or on the way to the Wall (which would probably be cleaner in terms of repercussions)?

Of course, this would depend upon Varys either already knowing that R+L=J (if it does) or finding out through the letter that Eddard discussed with him. I could see such a revelation about Jon being motivation for Varys to not want Jon to find out about his parentage and become a possible obstacle to his plans for Dany.

Also, I don't recall whether said letter was actually written :dunno:[/quote]
Hate to quote myself but I'd really like some feedback on this and it does seem pertinent to the discussion on this thread at the moment :)
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The biggest problem I see with most of these theories that Jaqen was in Kings landing to kill someone is this. I get the impression that when he has a job to do, he follows through with it no matter what. Like when Arya asked him if he would even kill the king, he said something like " a man has no horse so a man must walk. But he puts one foot in front of the other, and it may be tomorrow, it may be a moons turn or it may be a year, but one day a man is there, and a king dies." So If he was supposed to kill someone in kings Landing, he would have went back that way to complete his job. Unless whom ever the target was is already dead. So I think he was either on his way to oldtown in the first place and ended up imprisoned by accident, or if he had a target, the target is already dead. If his target was anyone signifigant, that leaves very few possibilities. Only a couple are dead at this point. Namely Robert or Ned. I Still think Ned is the best bet. I still cant figure out why he would be "companions" with Rorge and Biter either before or after the black cells. Once they were free of Yoren, he seemed to have no more use to be with them. Wich tells me they were not his companions at all. They were actually criminals, and he was a plant. They knew what he was, and for what ever reason had to play along. Also he calls Arya by her name in private at Harrenhal. When she asks how he knows, he gives the typical "a man see's, a man knows" line. No one else knows who she is, not even the northerners who have seen her before. Seems a little coincidental that he knows who she is if he was truly there by chance.
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[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1472983' date='Aug 8 2008, 18.32']Hate to quote myself but I'd really like some feedback on this and it does seem pertinent to the discussion on this thread at the moment :)[/quote]Ned didn't write the letter. He asked Varys what he would do if he wrote one, and Varys said he would read it, and then there was no need to, since he was going to the Wall anyway. Final hint is his ghost appears in Bran and Rickon's dream wanting to say something about Jon, you'd think if he had written the letter he'd be less anxious about that, unless he knew it was not going to be delivered, in which case he would not have written a letter at all.

As for killing Ned on the way, if one FM cannot break free of his chains when a barn is on fire around him, he cannot when a man is walking ten metres from him. In the Black cells it makes no sense, Varys could have done it himself, or made anyone do it, there is absolutely no need for a FM. Actually, considering Ned's honour, if he is going to the wall there is no need to kill him on the way either. Death buys silence forever, but Sansa being hostage buys it all the same. Also, again, why a FM when he could hire about any Bronn with a bow to take a potshot at Ned?


[quote name='Raff the Sweetling']Also he calls Arya by her name in private at Harrenhal. When she asks how he knows, he gives the typical "a man see's, a man knows" line.[/quote]I always took that for a bluff meant to make Arya react. Jaqen knows she is not what she says she is, he knows that she thinks the Queen is after her, he heard her list (which would be enough to give her away anyhow, considering the names utterred), he knows her age, he knows her gender, he knows when she was taken off the streets of KL, he knows her nickname "Arry", and he knows that the Lannisters don't have Arya now. It's like, something the most natural deduction ever.
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Maybe the FMs are not as powerful as they seem...Jaqen's stint in prison could have been just a coincidence. It might have also been a result of his mistake - let's imagine he was caught red-handed. Impossible? Well, if FMs were infallible nobody would know they actually exist...
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