The Ultimate Cliché

[MTGAP]

What's the one cliché that's in nearly every fantasy story? There's some person, who was in some prophecy and is coming to save the world. The Chosen One in Star Wars, the One in the Matrix, plus many, many other examples that I can't remember at this time. In ASOIAF, there's the prince that was promised. Having this prophecy come true would be SO clichéd, would GRRM really do it? I'd be kind of disappointed if he did, because it's an annoying cliché that I get tired of. I also get tired of typing the accent on the e on cliché.

I have the strange feeling that this has been discussed before.

[Olenna]

No worries, pretty much everything you see on this board has already been discussed before.

The messiah prophecy is indeed a cliché, but it's not restricted to fantasy stories--it's one of those recurring narratives of human existence: the world goes to pot, people hope for someone who will make it all better, and eventually someone does. But yeah, all the Luke Skywalkers and Harry Potters get on one's nerves after a while.

There was a recent thread that came up with a creative variation on this cliché: suppose Jon, Dany, Bran and various other princes/princesses (Asha? Quentyn? Stannis?) simultaneously save the world, and it's left up to the reader to decide which one was the Prince that was Promised? That would avoid an excessively cut-and-dried fulfillment of the prophecy.

[MTGAP]

[quote name='Olenna' post='1482390' date='Aug 15 2008, 22.25']No worries, pretty much everything you see on this board has already been discussed before.

The messiah prophecy is indeed a cliché, but it's not restricted to fantasy stories--it's one of those recurring narratives of human existence: the world goes to pot, people hope for someone who will make it all better, and eventually someone does. But yeah, all the Luke Skywalkers and Harry Potters get on one's nerves after a while.

There was a recent thread that came up with a creative variation on this cliché: suppose Jon, Dany, Bran and various other princes/princesses (Asha? Quentyn? Stannis?) simultaneously save the world, and it's left up to the reader to decide which one was the Prince that was Promised? That would avoid an excessively cut-and-dried fulfillment of the prophecy.[/quote]
Ah yes, I saw that. I didn't read it though. Maybe I should. Yes, I will do that right now.

[Red Lion of Castamere]

Yeah I think that Grrm will have the prophecy fulfilled, but just in a way that makes it less cliched. Perhaps having there be many possible princes that were promised will be his way of doing this.

[Rinso]

Well, that's why, for example, I hate the R+L=J theory along with any others who hint of hidden Targaryen heirs. The sheer idea of such thing is so cheesy, and cheap and cliché that words are not strong enough to describe it.
You know, one of the reasons why I love ASoIaF is that it's one of the most unpredictable and amazingly interesting stories I have ever read in the genre. With most fantasy books, you can tell what's gonna happen in the end by the 10th page exactly because of the use of such clichés like the Messiah, the Hidden Prince-Messiah, the Saving of the World etc. With ASoIaF is different and I would be really disappointed if GRRM does it any other way.

Serously, what can be more cliché than, for example, "Jon realises that he is a hidden Targaryen, hooks up with Dany, saves the world and becomes king."? That's horrible, but it's the logical effect if R+L=J is true (I hope it's not, oh how I hope!).

So... I don't know if GRRM will fall for the The Ultimate Cliché, but I really hope he doesn't. For now, by the 4th book, he hasn't, but the danger is still there, because the inevitable main plot with the attack of the Others comes close and that's the perfect breeding ground for cheesy clichés...

[Paxter]

Well, GRRM has already left one of the more clichéd prophecies in the series unfulfilled - the "Stallion that Mounts the World" prophecy, which, if fulfilled, would have seen Dany's son become the ultimate hero and eventually dominate the entire planet etc. (although I must concede that there is always the chance that the prophecy will still be fulfilled because the Dothraki hags misinterpreted the prophecy and the "stallion" is actually a "mare" - Dany).

For the sake of preserving the uniqueness of the series, let's hope that lightning strikes twice and that Rhaegar's "he is the prince that was promised" prophecy also bites the dust or is fulfilled in a completely unexpected manner.

[ithanos]

The ultimate cliché? I'm not a prolific reader of fantasy so I guess I'm not overexposed to this because it would be a satisfactory end imho. GRRM already knows the ending so this may have always been on the cards.

The cliché only represents a character's journey from the beginning of the book to the end so how GRRM fills in the space in between these points is what's more important. And if he adds a twist to it at the end then all the better.

[Tyro Lannister]

I wouldn't let it bother me, the way GRRM has done it it's something we can think and theorize about and that outweighs the clicheness, in my opinion.

[Ledo]

Also i think that people underestimate the R+L=J theory as a twist, because we have been on this forum for so long. I remember when i first found this theory, before i had seen it talked to death. I remember thinking that it was a great twist, something i had not seen at all and was perfectly plausible if it came through.

I think that if i had never read this forum and found out R+L=J before it came out in the book, i would be pretty surprised and happy with Jon coming out as half direwolf, half dragon and saving the world (especially since i know GRRM wouldn't make it that simple).

I think we are just sick of it, because we have been talking about it for years and have gotten used to it being the norm, instead of a pretty well thought out twist.

Ledo

[Shewoman]

Rinso said, "Serously, what can be more cliché than, for example, "Jon realises that he is a hidden Targaryen, hooks up with Dany, saves the world and becomes king."? That's horrible, but it's the logical effect if R+L=J is true (I hope it's not, oh how I hope!)."

R+L=J can be true without that outcome. 1) Jon might never learn who his parents were. 2) Jon might learn who his parents were but decide to stay at the Wall/support Dany's claim/accept legitimation as a Stark so he can rebuild Winterfell. 3) It's not clear what evidence could surface that would establish R+L=J, especially considering the powerful implications if it were true. A marriage certificate that's survived all these years? One that everyone would accept? 4) If evidence of R+L=J were provided, there could be war in Westeros. Jon might not survive it and so never rule.

I think Martin might go for options 1 or 4. Or it may be that we'll learn the truth (he's said we will) but the characters won't.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Ledo' post='1482680' date='Aug 16 2008, 10.51']Also i think that people underestimate the R+L=J theory as a twist, because we have been on this forum for so long. I remember when i first found this theory, before i had seen it talked to death. I remember thinking that it was a great twist, something i had not seen at all and was perfectly plausible if it came through.

I think that if i had never read this forum and found out R+L=J before it came out in the book, i would be pretty surprised and happy with Jon coming out as half direwolf, half dragon and saving the world (especially since i know GRRM wouldn't make it that simple).

I think we are just sick of it, because we have been talking about it for years and have gotten used to it being the norm, instead of a pretty well thought out twist.

Ledo[/quote]

Well, I can't speak for nobody else, but in the moment I heard about it, I thought it was an awful idea.

[quote name='Shewoman']Rinso said, "Serously, what can be more cliché than, for example, "Jon realises that he is a hidden Targaryen, hooks up with Dany, saves the world and becomes king."? That's horrible, but it's the logical effect if R+L=J is true (I hope it's not, oh how I hope!)."

R+L=J can be true without that outcome. 1) Jon might never learn who his parents were. 2) Jon might learn who his parents were but decide to stay at the Wall/support Dany's claim/accept legitimation as a Stark so he can rebuild Winterfell. 3) It's not clear what evidence could surface that would establish R+L=J, especially considering the powerful implications if it were true. A marriage certificate that's survived all these years? One that everyone would accept? 4) If evidence of R+L=J were provided, there could be war in Westeros. Jon might not survive it and so never rule.

I think Martin might go for options 1 or 4. Or it may be that we'll learn the truth (he's said we will) but the characters won't.[/quote]

Option 1 sounds most decent, though I would prefer it [i]without [/i]R+L=J. It can work with anyone else just as good.

For Option 2 I can say that only the decision to stay at the Wall would be best, given the development of his character so far. He is not interested in the politics of Westeros when they don't concern the Night's Watch, so he wouldn't start supporting out of the blue Dany's claim (at least I hope so). As for his legitimation as a Stark, he already refused it from Stannis, why should he accept it from someone else?

As for Option 3... well, if it comes down to some half-burned marriage certificate and "Cause Howland Reed said so!" and the [i]whole [/i]Realm believes it and bend the knee before the newly married couple of Jon and Dany... well, I'll quit reading the book probably and feel fucking cheated.

Option 4 is highly doubtful, IMO. There is no time for a thousand civil wars anymore, cause the books must start dealing with the attack of the Others already and, assuming that it's not the main focus of ADWD, we will have only two more books about it and that's it. That is, of course, if GRRM sticks to the plan of having 7 books, not 12 or 17, or 77.

--

Personally, IMHO, I would prefer it if Jon and Dany never meet at all - it's not like it's [i]obligatory [/i]to happen. Sure, the whole point of Dany and her dragons is to fight and defeat the Others, but by that time Jon can be safely dead already, for example, probably killed in the first massive attack against the Wall, in which Dany takes no part at all.

[a_homeless_harpy]

We've seen one twist in the "Messiah" archetype storyline - some people (Maester Aemon for example) think that the prince who was promised is, in fact, [i]a princess[/i]. Whether it is true or not - we still don't know. Danny did revive the dragons but let's imagine somebody else (Stannis? Jon? ) achieved the same - how will she persuade her people that she is the real thing and all the others - just base impostors? I hope Martin will keep twisting that thread and it won't become as cliche as some of you suggested.

[SkyPirate]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1482707' date='Aug 16 2008, 17.35']As for Option 3... well, if it comes down to some half-burned marriage certificate and "Cause Howland Reed said so!" and the [i]whole [/i]Realm believes it and bend the knee before the newly married couple of Jon and Dany... well, I'll quit reading the book probably and feel fucking cheated.[/quote]
Because we all know Jon is exactly the type of guy who'd marry his aunt, right?

[Rinso]

[quote name='SkyPirate' post='1482758' date='Aug 16 2008, 11.32']Because we all know Jon is exactly the type of guy who'd marry his aunt, right?[/quote]

Well, go and say that to those who are pro-R+L=J and hope that Jon will become king at the end.

[Shewoman]

I'm pro R+L and I don't want Jon to be king at the end. I wasn't that crazy about his becoming Commander of the NW.

It is hard to see how Option 3 could happen. What evidence would everybody--or at least those most involved--believe?

I don't see Jon hooking up with Dany unless he doesn't realize who she is in relation to him. I don't think Ned's his biological father, but in many ways he's Ned's son.

One thing I like about R+L is that it makes us remember how much of the present is predicated on the past, meaning that people are greatly affected by things they didn't do and never would have--as true for us as it is for Westeros--and, perhaps, that we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors. Shortly after 9/11 President GWB used the word "crusade" to describe the US' response.

[Olenna]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1482812' date='Aug 16 2008, 13.26']I'm pro R+L and I don't want Jon to be king at the end. I wasn't that crazy about his becoming Commander of the NW.[/quote]

I agree, I always thought the election of Jon as Lord Commander was contrived and unrealistic. A 16-year-old boy might [i]inherit[/i] a leadership position (à la Robb), but he would never be elected into one.

But I would like to see Jon on the throne at the end--even though it would be cliché--because he would be a stabler, more moderate ruler than Dany. He would bind up the country's wounds, whereas Dany would rip them open again. Judging by the way she's been rampaging through the east, Westeros is headed for civil war under her leadership. Awesome conquerors tend not to be awesome rulers. I keep thinking she'll be another Alexander the Great: she'll die right after conquering Westeros and leave people like Jon to pick up the pieces.

But I'm not sure how Jon could accede to the throne unless he marries Dany (ick! the most cliché scenario of all!) and/or the world is convinced of Jon's Targaryen descent, which seems impossible.

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1482812' date='Aug 16 2008, 18.26']I'm pro R+L and I don't want Jon to be king at the end. I wasn't that crazy about his becoming Commander of the NW.[/quote]
Count me another who agrees with this. I think it would break the cliché even more if Jon were, technically, a clichéd figure, but refused to live up to it. Sort of, "You could save the World!!!1!" "Er, no. Too busy Lord Commandering. Why not go and talk to my aunt? She'd be good at it. She has [i]dragons[/i]."

[Shewoman]

I would LOVE that, Eloisa!

[SkyPirate]

You'd have to admit it, though. Jon marrying/boffing his aunt would be really messed up. I don't understand how people can see the dreaded fairytale ending in that.

[Raff the Sweetling]

Ledo speaks the truth. If I hadnt read on the boards about 90% of these theories, I would still be in the dark about them. I may have picked up on a few things here and there and thought "Hmmm, I wonder." Even the "cliche'" plots in the book are so well done with misdirection and plot twists, that they would be well hidden unless you get 1,000's of people collectively breaking down every sentence in the book. I love discussing all the possibilities, but in a way, we have managed to take all the suprise out of it. GRRM did all he could do to keep away from the Cliche', and Im sure he didnt plan on all us geeks breaking down every possibility. Instead of having a bunch of "Holy Shit!" moments as things come together, we are only going to have a bunch of "yeah thats what I figured" moments. Thats our own fault, not Martins. He couldnt twist it much more without ruining it, and I hope he doesnt do that for the likes of us.