The Ultimate Cliché

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='Maia' post='1486909' date='Aug 20 2008, 13.19']I would say that disowning and a civil war are quite different consequences and I am not sure how Lyanna was supposed to deduce something like that from the Arryn incident. Also, Aegon the Unworthy bedded scores of his lords daughters and Robert did at least one and nobody went to war with either of them. Nor were young women in question even disowned. In fact, as far as we know something like that has never happened until Robert's Rebellion. So, yes, I don't see why either Rhaegar or Lyanna would have expected anything more than unpleasantness that could be smoothed over with gifts and favors from the crown.

The one person who _should_ have known not to behave like he did was Brandon. I mean, the Duskendale precedent was right there in front of him, yet he chose to storm to KL. IMHO, Aerys and Brandon were far more responsible for this war than R&L and no, Lyanna wasn't Brandon's keeper and wasn't responsible for his idiotic actions.[/quote]

Why do they need historical precedents when they intimately know the characters involved (thir father, their brother)? And while Lyanna might not be Brandon's keeper (that's from Darkover stories?) I expect that as his sister she'd be able to predict his actions. And no one would be surprised at Aerys' actions. We don't need ancient historical precedents there we only need to look at the aftermath of Duskendale and his paranoid behavior in general.

The only thing that was really surprising about the rebellion was that the rebels won. While not 'responsible' for her family's actions I'd find Lyanna disgusting if she really caused the annihilation of her entire family because she liked some singer more than her betrothed. Talk about egocentric.

And where were they when all this was happening? If they think things can be smoothed over shouldn't they be there in King's Landing to do just that? The least they can do after running away together was to try and talk their families into accepting their actions. Why is it Aerys who's left to act uncharacteristically tolerant and thick skinned and Brandon and co. that are expected to swallow their pride and slink away? But no, R+L are off honeymooning while the world is burning.

[quote]I mean, the Targs practiced incest for a reason, IMHO - to ensure that the dragon gift wasn't bred out of them. It would be a very great irony if somebody who was conceived to be the third head of the dragon just didn't have what it takes and had to be replaced by somebody else.[/quote]

Isn't it an even bigger irony that the first two heads of the dragons were killed without resistance while still babies/little children? The only dragon in sight was a little black cat that managed torun away.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1486803' date='Aug 20 2008, 01.26']The problem is, that most of the evidence for R+L=J is as circumstancial and most of the times can mean absolutely nothing without puting it in the context of the theory. It is not bad way to put on piles on evidence to the theory, but very few chunks from that pile are rock-hard, straight-forward and undeniable; most are just stretched conjectures, just like this one.[/quote]

Perhaps. But some pieces of evidence are more compelling, namely Ned's curt refusals to name Jon's mother (and referring to him as "my blood" instead of "my son") and Dany's vision from the House of the Undying (the one where she sees a blue flower growing on a wall of ice, and we know Lyanna liked blue roses). And, in any case, stretching conjectures to fit a theory is what hardcore fans do.;)

[b]shadowbinding shoe[/b]

[quote]Why do they need historical precedents when they intimately know the characters involved (thir father, their brother)? And while Lyanna might not be Brandon's keeper (that's from Darkover stories?) I expect that as his sister she'd be able to predict his actions.[/quote]

Are you able to predict every one of your kin's actions? If so, congratulations. I certainly am not, especially in times of stress for everyone. Yes, that Brandon would be angry and even enraged could be expected. That he would recklessly barge into the Red Keep and shout his intent to kill Rhaegar isn't.

However, I agree the couple (or at least Rhaegar) could have returned to King's Landing and try to smooth things over before the point of no return was reached. I'm not denying that Rhaegar and Lyanna made mistakes. But Brandon and Aerys are the ones who really sparked the civil war.

[Shewoman]

Rinso, Martin's said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany--and if he was born near the end of the war, around the time KL fell, that's true.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1487083' date='Aug 20 2008, 08.09']Perhaps. But some pieces of evidence are more compelling, namely Ned's curt refusals to name Jon's mother (and referring to him as "my blood" instead of "my son") and Dany's vision from the House of the Undying ([b]the one where she sees a blue flower growing on a wall of ice, and we know Lyanna liked blue roses[/b]). And, in any case, stretching conjectures to fit a theory is what hardcore fans do.;)[/quote]

And you just nailed the most convincing (at least to me) evidence in favor of R+L=J. However, most of the other evidence is not that strong and convincing at all.
As for the "my blood" line, it means nothing, because sometime earlier in AGOT Ned calls Robb and Jon "my sons". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The refusals to name Jon's mother might be incited just as well from sense of shame, than a desire to hide a secret.


[quote name='Krafus' post='1487083' date='Aug 20 2008, 08.09']Are you able to predict every one of your kin's actions? If so, congratulations. I certainly am not, especially in times of stress for everyone. Yes, that Brandon would be angry and even enraged could be expected. That he would recklessly barge into the Red Keep and shout his intent to kill Rhaegar isn't.

However, I agree the couple (or at least Rhaegar) could have returned to King's Landing and try to smooth things over before the point of no return was reached. I'm not denying that Rhaegar and Lyanna made mistakes. But Brandon and Aerys are the ones who really sparked the civil war.[/quote]

One thing that raise my interest is the question [i]why the hell[/i] was Brandon [i]so[/i] angry that he demanded that Rhaegar must [i]die[/i]. It sounds like something Robert would say (and do, of course) in that situation, so he may not be the only one who believed that Lyanna was kidnapped. Which is strange, because if Lyanna was so wild and unpredictable that to run away with Rhaegar, a relative as close as her older brother might have expected it in some degree. But no, he acted entirely like Lyanna was victim.

To me, most responsible were Rhaegar and Aerys. They both did whatever they damn pleased, and seemed to think that nobody should open their mouths about it. Brandon acted harshly and stupid (almost idiotic, actually, but he is a Stark, it has to be expected), but he was within his rights to be angry and to demand justice if Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1487149' date='Aug 20 2008, 08.46']Rinso, Martin's said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany--and if he was born near the end of the war, around the time KL fell, that's true.[/quote]

So? There can be other explanation, besides R+L=J. For example

SPOILER: ADWD, the Davos Chapter

On the Fingers a fisherman carried him across the Bite, but they got caught in a storm - the fisherman's daughter got Ned to the Sisters. They say he left her with silver and a bastard in her belly - Jon Snow, she named it, after Arryn.

[Shewoman]

Ned says at one point that both Brandon and Lyanna had "the wolf blood," which I took to mean they weren't conventional and did what they wanted regardless of the consequences (perhaps without thinking of them).

I think Brandon demanded Rhaegar's death because he assumed that his sister's disappearance involved rape; Robert clearly has made that assumption as well (he says something to Ned about how Rhaegar raped Lyanna many times). The eldest son of his generation is concerned not only for his sister's well-being but also for the Stark honor. You said, "[Brandon] was within his rights to be angry and to demand justice if Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister," but surely first he should have tried to find out if Lyanna was kidnapped. So far nothing in the story points to Rhaegar as either rapist or kidnapper--Jorah tells Dany that her saving of the "sheepwomen" from rape show her to be Rhaegar's true sister, so apparently Jorah didn't think of Rhaegar as a rapist.

We still don't know the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance and I'm not sure that we can absolve her for any responsibility for what happened as a result. Brandon's reaction was quite likely to get the response that it DID get, and I think he bears a fair amount of responsibility for the resulting murders (including his and his father's). Aerys is the one who really went over the top--but that reaction, I think, was easily predictable.

Odd--a sentence showed up in this post that I didn't write and do not agree with.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1487221' date='Aug 20 2008, 09.19']Ned says at one point that both Brandon and Lyanna had "the wolf blood," which I took to mean they weren't conventional and did what they wanted regardless of the consequences (perhaps without thinking of them).[/quote]

I know, and I think basically the same, but still, there has to be some boundary. You can't just blame such seroius actions like a higborn girl running away from home against every rule and tradition in this society or demanding the death of the Prince and Heir to the Iron Throne, you can't just blame such actions on a hotheadedness. There has to be more to it, perhaps we just don't know everything about it yet.

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1487221' date='Aug 20 2008, 09.19']I think Brandon demanded Rhaegar's death because he assumed that his sister's disappearance involved rape; Robert clearly has made that assumption as well (he says something to Ned about how Rhaegar raped Lyanna many times). I think it's also possible twas within his rights to be angry and to demand justice if Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister. hat the eldest son of his generation is concerned not only for his sister's well-being but also for the Stark honor. You said, "[Brandon] was within his rights to be angry and to demand justice if Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister," but surely first he should have tried to find out if Lyanna was kidnapped. So far nothing in the story points to Rhaegar as either rapist or kidnapper--Jorah tells Dany that her saving of the "sheepwomen" from rape show her to be Rhaegar's true sister, so apparently Jorah didn't think of Rhaegar as a rapist.[/quote]

I know, that's my point. Rhaegar is not presented like a kidnapper and a rapist, yet still, Lyanna's own brother, who have known her all her life - and according to Ned was as bad as her - acts like everything is Rhaegar's fault. To demand his death in front of the Red Keep, he had to be sure as hell that he was guilty. And that's the strange thing here - if Lyanna was so wild that to be able to run away from home, that [i]had[/i] to be expected by the other Starks. If she was so wild, the reaction would be more along the lines of "Awww, shit... oh, well, it had to happen sonner or later, she was a wild thing... Now... what are we going to do to fix the situation?" not "Aaaaarghhh! I'm gonna kill him!"

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1487221' date='Aug 20 2008, 17.19']Ned says at one point that both Brandon and Lyanna had "the wolf blood," which I took to mean they weren't conventional and did what they wanted regardless of the consequences (perhaps without thinking of them).[/quote]

Not quite:

[i] "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early
grave."[/i]

So Lyanna wasn't all that wild. Just a little bit.


[quote]I think Brandon demanded Rhaegar's death because he assumed that his sister's disappearance involved rape; Robert clearly has made that assumption as well (he says something to Ned about how Rhaegar raped Lyanna many times). I think it's also possible twas within his rights to be angry and to demand justice if Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister. hat the eldest son of his generation is concerned not only for his sister's well-being but also for the Stark honor.[/quote]

I didn't read that as Brandon asking for a death sentence on Rheagar. What he did was challenge him to a duel. You're expected to say insulting things to goad your enemy into accepting your challenge. Is it a crime to challenge someone to a duel to the death? These duels are sanctioned by the Westerosi religion.


[quote]You said, "[Brandon] was within his rights to be angry and to demand justice if Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister," but surely first he should have tried to find out if Lyanna was kidnapped. So far nothing in the story points to Rhaegar as either rapist or kidnapper--Jorah tells Dany that her saving of the "sheepwomen" from rape show her to be Rhaegar's true sister, so apparently Jorah didn't think of Rhaegar as a rapist.[/quote]

That's not relevant here. Just because Rheagar doesn't approve of his soldiers raping captives or isn't attracted to such doesn't mean he won't rape a beautiful noble girl he wants. Same goes for Ned's comment that he wouldn't go to whorehouses like Robert. Run of the mill whores and even expensive whores are not the same at all as a virtuous noble girl that may even be mentioned in earth shaking prophecies.

Brandon and Robert must base their accusations on something. If they knew nothing how could they point the finger at Rheagar? For all they knew she could have fallen down a well. Can we dismiss their accusations that easily based only on a few hearsays about Rheagar character when under normal circumstances? If we accept that Rheagar can flout all laws and common sense and the like for the sake of fulfilling his prophecies why not believe him capable of rape as well? It's all for the greater good after all. Maybe after months as his captive Lyanna grew to love him. That doesn't mean she loved him the night she disappeared.

[quote]We still don't know the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance and I'm not sure that we can absolve her for any responsibility for what happened as a result. Brandon's reaction was quite likely to get the response that it DID get, and I think he bears a fair amount of responsibility for the resulting murders (including his and his father's). Aerys is the one who really went over the top--but that reaction, I think, was easily predictable.[/quote]

So Lyanna (and Rheagar) are not responsible for their families' reaction but Brandon is? Should everyone just accept the wrongs inflicted on them by the royal family because the king is mad and shouldn't be pushed? What a double standard.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1487182' date='Aug 20 2008, 10.07']And you just nailed the most convincing (at least to me) evidence in favor of R+L=J. However, most of the other evidence is not that strong and convincing at all.
As for the "my blood" line, it means nothing, because sometime earlier in AGOT Ned calls Robb and Jon "my sons". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The refusals to name Jon's mother might be incited just as well from sense of shame, than a desire to hide a secret.[/quote]

When Ned said "my blood," it was when Catelyn asked him point-blank about Jon's mother early in their marriage. To me it sounds like he was unwilling to lie to his wife's face while still not revealing the truth, but knows he must carry on the charade in front of the rest of his people.

And, as Shewoman mentions, can his sense of shame outweigh the pain of not knowing was obviously causing for both Jon and Catelyn? If the woman was baseborn, then outing her wouldn't have mattered a whit to nearly everyone in Westerosi society. If she was a noblewoman, then it's still no big deal - Robert got a Florent noblewoman pregnant at his own brother's wedding, and neither Edric Storm nor his mother were put to death or stoned. About the only negative consequence is that the noblewoman's marriage prospects were diminished as a result. That's hardly worth the continual anguish Jon and Catelyn must bear, especially if Jon's mother is already dead.

[quote]To me, most responsible were Rhaegar and Aerys. They both did whatever they damn pleased, and seemed to think that nobody should open their mouths about it. Brandon acted harshly and stupid (almost idiotic, actually, but he is a Stark, it has to be expected), but he was within his rights to be angry and to demand justice if Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister.[/quote]

Yes, [i]if[/i] Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, Brandon would certainly have been within his rights to be angry and demand justice. But Brandon didn't wait to find out exactly what happened. As soon as he heard what had happened, he just charged into the Red Keep and called out for Rhaegar to come out and die.

And the fact that Ned doesn't think badly of Rhaegar, which one would expect him to do if the prince had indeed kidnapped and raped Lyanna, certainly seems to point toward Lyanna going with Rhaegar of her own volition.

[Krafus]

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1487332' date='Aug 20 2008, 11.11']I didn't read that as Brandon asking for a death sentence on Rheagar. What he did was challenge him to a duel. You're expected to say insulting things to goad your enemy into accepting your challenge. Is it a crime to challenge someone to a duel to the death? These duels are sanctioned by the Westerosi religion.[/quote]

Actually, Brandon [i]did[/i] want to summarily kill Rhaegar:

(ACOK US hardcover, p. 599): Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. [i]"He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, [b]shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die[/b]. But Rhaegar wasn't there."[/i]

The only duel mentioned at the time was when Lord Rickard Stark demanded trial by combat, and Aerys had him roasted.

[quote]Brandon and Robert must base their accusations on something. If they knew nothing how could they point the finger at Rheagar? For all they knew she could have fallen down a well. Can we dismiss their accusations that easily based only on a few hearsays about Rheagar character when under normal circumstances?[/quote]

Yes, we can. Both Brandon and Robert were rash and heedless. Brandon didn't wait to find out exactly what happened before recklessly barging into the Red Keep. As for Robert, from his POV, not only was his betrothed taken by force, but the king unjustly called for his head after having Brandon and Rickard murdered. By then, it was already too late to ask for Rhaegar and Lyanna to explain their actions. From what I can tell, they never have a shred of proof that Lyanna was taken against her will and raped.

Again I point to Ned - if Rhaegar had indeed kidnapped and raped Lyanna, he would certainly have had bad thoughts for Rhaegar in AGOT. Yet not only does he not have that sort of thoughts, but he doesn't think Rhaegar frequented brothel, which IMO he almost certainly would have if he believed Rhaegar to be a rapist.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1487365' date='Aug 20 2008, 11.36']Yes, we can. Both Brandon and Robert were rash and heedless. Brandon didn't wait to find out exactly what happened before recklessly barging into the Red Keep. As for Robert, from his POV, not only was his betrothed taken by force, but the king unjustly called for his head after having Brandon and Rickard murdered. By then, it was already too late to ask for Rhaegar and Lyanna to explain their actions. From what I can tell, they never have a shred of proof that Lyanna was taken against her will and raped.[/quote]

If they never had a shred of proof, why would they accuse and blame Rhaegar? Note, that they accused him seperately from one another. True, they are both hotheaded, but still, even the most hotheaded person needs a [i]reason [/i]to act - there is no smoke without fire, if you get my meaning. Even [i]Gregor[/i] kills his men for a [i]reason[/i] - I mean the story that the Hound told Arya in ASOS, how Gregor killed one of his men, because he snored loudly. It's laughable reason, I know, but still, the point stands.

[quote name='Krafus' post='1487365' date='Aug 20 2008, 11.36']Again I point to Ned - if Rhaegar had indeed kidnapped and raped Lyanna, he would certainly have had bad thoughts for Rhaegar in AGOT. Yet not only does he not have that sort of thoughts, but he doesn't think Rhaegar frequented brothel, which IMO he almost certainly would have if he believed Rhaegar to be a rapist.[/quote]

Ned seldom thinks of Rhaegar at all. To me, that is because, by the time of AGOT he has put it all behind his back (unlike Robert), not because he secretly is fond of Rhaegar.
Besides, doing it with whores and raping are two different things. Basically, that's the difference between Tyrion and Gregor.

[Shewoman]

I believe Robert thinks Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna because the alternative--that she ditched him and went with Rhaegar voluntarily--is something he could never face. Ned never challenges him on this, but I think it's clear that he doesn't agree with him.

Rinso, if that spoiler is true it doesn't necessarily connect with what Martin has said about the 8-9 month difference in age between Jon and Dany. We know that Jon being born near or shortly after the Sack of KL does.

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1487365' date='Aug 20 2008, 18.36']Actually, Brandon [i]did[/i] want to summarily kill Rhaegar:

(ACOK US hardcover, p. 599): Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. [i]"He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, [b]shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die[/b]. But Rhaegar wasn't there."[/i]

The only duel mentioned at the time was when Lord Rickard Stark demanded trial by combat, and Aerys had him roasted.[/quote]

Yes, that's the quote. And what does it mean exactly that the prince must come out and die? If he wanted him tried and sentenced to death he would have said that the prince must be killed, or at least that he just die. Not [b]come out[/b] and die. He obviously means here that Rheagar has to come to him and be killed by him personally (or else by one of his men?) That only makes sense as a request for a duel. Even if you put it in the context of the Northern custom of the death sentence being performed by the Lord judge it still wouldn't make sense. This land is under the jurisdiction of the King, not of a noble that is not even a Lord, and being a dispute between two major houses it's still the jurisdiction of the king. He'd maybe say come back with me and face my father if he wanted to put him on trial under the Stark house.

In short he's asking for a duel. It might not have been formally expressed but that's still what it is. His father later repeat the request because he deems it a legal one and their arrest as against the law. We see the king also believes that the request for duel had some weight because he manages to come up with a twisted version of it instead of dismissing it out of hand.

[quote]Yes, we can. Both Brandon and Robert were rash and heedless. Brandon didn't wait to find out exactly what happened before recklessly barging into the Red Keep. As for Robert, from his POV, not only was his betrothed taken by force, but the king unjustly called for his head after having Brandon and Rickard murdered. By then, it was already too late to ask for Rhaegar and Lyanna to explain their actions. From what I can tell, they never have a shred of proof that Lyanna was taken against her will and raped.[/quote]

So you believe. There's nothing in the books that says this. So you can't. Let's see. What sort of evidence should they have waited for? We must assume Brandon received all the knowledge there was amongst his own men about what happened. It is enough apparently for him to know for a fact that she didn't for example fall down a well, or lost in the woods but taken by Rheagar. What next? I suppose he should have asked Rheagar about it? Check any rape trial record, you'll find they almost all say it didn't happen or "but she wanted it"


[quote]Again I point to Ned - if Rhaegar had indeed kidnapped and raped Lyanna, he would certainly have had bad thoughts for Rhaegar in AGOT. Yet not only does he not have that sort of thoughts, but he doesn't think Rhaegar frequented brothel, which IMO he almost certainly would have if he believed Rhaegar to be a rapist.[/quote]

Yes, Ned's reactions are certainly weird. Where is his anger at the way his father and brother (and various others who came with them) were tortured and murdered? There's no sign of it and that's frankly bizarre. The only contention he seemed to have with the Targareyns was that they killed children for the crimes of their fathers. In this case that means he's not angry that they killed Brandon, and he's not angry that they killed his father either, or all their servants, friends and what-not. He's just angry that they asked for his (innocent, young) head.

And as I said earlier if Lyanna said when he met her before her death that she grew to like Rheagar over the course of her long captivity he might view them differently. Certainly not using whores is not a sign that he's not a rapist. In fact going by the theory that tendency for rape and violence is hereditary we can rely on our knowledge that his father enjoyed acts of violence and raping of his wife to conclude that Rheagar had such hidden tendencies in himself.

[Rinso]

Shewoman, if you don't believe me, go to the ADWD spoiler forum and check out the summary of the first Davos chapter yourself. It's there, I copy-pasted it directly.

I don't know what it does or doesn't explain, but I don't think we should wave it away lightly. It does raise some questions. For example, if the story is a lie how anyone on the Sisters would know for sure the name of Jon?

[Ghost's claw]

I can't quite fathom how people jump to the conclusion cliche=R+L=j..I mean there are lots of other potential cliches which have been glaringly obvious right since the first book like the whole Dany=messiah thing..yet people hardly ever seem to to consider a scenario where Dany ends up conquering westeros as cliche.

Well just for the record, if someone were to ask you after your first read,which among Dany saving the world or Jon being the son of Rhaegar would be cliche?what would you pick? i mean..even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, there are numerous twists which are possible(assuming the revelation itself might be a shocker for some) and also the whole issue of jon's parentage could potentially be nothing major towards the main story arc..which isn't the case with Dany's story.So i disagree that jon being Rhaegar's son is the ultimate cliche..and if it so happens that it turns out to be true..GRRM handled it better than anyone.The clues are very very well hidden.

[Ghost's claw]

Just to add a few points about jon..i don't think he necessarily stood out as a character for me..there are lots of bastards who already have a better reputation than him.He seems to be jack of all trades but master of none.Sure things get magnifies a lil bit when the character is presented as a POV but still..i don't think jon has been a winner from the word go in whatever he did.

[Shewoman]

Shadowbinding Shoe, Rhaegar wasn't present for Brandon's arrival, the calling of the squires' fathers to come to KL, or the murders of Rickard, Brandon, and pretty much everyone else who was present. That was all Aerys. (It would be interesting to know how this story got out. Jaime thinks about it in ASOS but as I remember he doesn't tell anyone.) The books do say that Aerys demanded Ned's and Robert's heads from Jon Arryn (with whom they were fostered). But, again, that wasn't Rhaegar. You said: "We must assume Brandon received all the knowledge there was amongst his own men about what happened. It is enough apparently for him to know for a fact that she didn't for example fall down a well, or lost in the woods but taken by Rheagar." I don't know that we must assume that. No one ever mentions it. Brandon was at Harrenhal; he and everyone else knows Rhaegar passed by his own wife to give Lyanna the Crown of Love and Beauty. You can see how when Lyanna was missing--even though it was quite some time later--people might assume that he was involved.

I think it's worth noting that Ned never has a negative thought about Rhaegar. And I think that may well be connected to the fact that as far as we know, aside from Rhaegar and whoever may have been at the ToJ (like the KG), Ned is the only one who saw Lyanna after she disappeared. She may have told him the circumstances of her disappearance and that may have satisfied him that Rhaegar wasn't to blame. I have to say that the idea of Ned leaving her with silver and a bastard in her belly (as per the spoiler) doesn't sound like him--and there's nothing about him coming back later and taking the child home with him.

Rinso, I saw that spoiler quite some time ago. I'm not saying it isn't true, just that it doesn't give the connection between Jon's and Dany's ages (which doesn't mean the connection doesn't work, just that we don't have the data). R+L=J does make that connection. If the woman in question named a bastard son Jon and said his father was a lordling who had passed through, that's how people would know his name.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1487506' date='Aug 20 2008, 12.45']I have to say that the idea of Ned leaving her with silver and a bastard in her belly doesn't sound like him--and there's nothing about him coming back later and taking the child home with him.[/quote]

Well, there is a number of possibilities. For example, he may have went there on the way home after the war and took the baby with him.

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1487506' date='Aug 20 2008, 12.45']I think it's worth noting that Ned never has a negative thought about Rhaegar.[/quote]

True, but the same goes for Aerys. Like I said, it's not so much that Ned has good thoughts about Rhaegar, it's more like he doesn't think about him at all most of the time.

[Poobah]

I really don't see why people get up in arms over 'cliché'.

So what? Why would it be an almighty Sin Against Literature if R + L = J and he turns out to be the saviour of the world? What's wrong with the bastard prince saving the world? Someone has to do it and it actually makes sense if someone relevant does it rather than hot pie, it takes some quality to save the world. Comments about being disappointed with GRRM if he did such a thing are just silly.


So what if the bastard prince saves the world quite often? It's the journey that matters and I dare say that George will tell that story a damn sight better than many a writer, it it turns out that that is the story that he is telling.

And hey, maybe something else will happen, who knows.

-Poobs

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1487506' date='Aug 20 2008, 19.45']Shadowbinding Shoe, Rhaegar wasn't present for Brandon's arrival, the calling of the squires' fathers to come to KL, or the murders of Rickard, Brandon, and pretty much everyone else who was present. That was all Aerys. (It would be interesting to know how this story got out. Jaime thinks about it in ASOS but as I remember he doesn't tell anyone.) The books do say that Aerys demanded Ned's and Robert's heads from Jon Arryn (with whom they were fostered). But, again, that wasn't Rhaegar.[/quote]

Yes that was all Aerys' doing. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
[quote]You said: "We must assume Brandon received all the knowledge there was amongst his own men about what happened. It is enough apparently for him to know for a fact that she didn't for example fall down a well, or lost in the woods but taken by Rheagar." I don't know that we must assume that. No one ever mentions it. Brandon was at Harrenhal; he and everyone else knows Rhaegar passed by his own wife to give Lyanna the Crown of Love and Beauty. You can see how when Lyanna was missing--even though it was quite some time later--people might assume that he was involved.[/quote]

Well, who knows. My assumption is that messengers came from Winterfel (or wherever it was that Lyanna disappeared from) and told him something. Suspicious noises in the night, a broken window, a piece of garment bearing the signs of the prince, broken branches and articles of clothing in a spot in the wood where he did the deed with her. At the very least he must have had proof that Rheagar was in the area. It would be too much otherwise.

[quote]I have to say that the idea of Ned leaving her with silver and a bastard in her belly doesn't sound like him--and there's nothing about him coming back later and taking the child home with him.[/quote]

Are you talking about Wylla? Who knows what went on with them. There are all sorts of possible scenarios.

[quote]I think it's worth noting that Ned never has a negative thought about Rhaegar. And I think that may well be connected to the fact that as far as we know, aside from Rhaegar and whoever may have been at the ToJ (like the KG), Ned is the only one who saw Lyanna after she disappeared. She may have told him the circumstances of her disappearance and that may have satisfied him that Rhaegar wasn't to blame.[/quote]

And as I said he has very few negative thoughts about Aerys. If we are to rely on his lack of ill feelings to Rheagar we must explain his tepid feelings to Aerys.