Jon is the child of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne

[Nine of Spades]

Robb is older than Jon.

We know this definiteively? Or is that assumed because it is assumed that Jon was fathered after Ned went to war, not before?

[parappa da rappa]

Not sure, but I think Robb is 5 months older. It would be easy to tell if Jon was older than Robb, since he was brought to Winterfell as an infant, correct?

[Ixodes]

Another question I want answered. Why should Ned feel guilty towards Jon? Wouldn't him having a mother be much more cause for guilt than his mother being simply dead?

And remember, he doesn't feel guilty towards Catelyn, just Jon.

Good question. At first I wanted to say that Ned felt guilty because he made Jon live the life of a bastard, but he is a bastard in either theory. The next thought that pops into my mind is the guilt is because Jon was fed a lifetime of lies. But in that case shouldn't he feel guilty about lying to Cat as well?

This one needs more thought. I personally believe R + L = J but you can never be certain with GRRM!

[ZepAgain]

Can anybody confirm the age difference between Jon and Robb. If the age gap is true this theory, which I think has some plausibility, becomes more difficult to believe.

[Shewoman]

This theory suggests that Ashara faked her suicide and left Westeros with Lyanna and Rhaegar's child and Ned took Jon--his child by Ashara--back to Winterfell, right?

This sort of thing has been suggested with Aegon rather than Jon--that Ashara took him into the east.

We do know where Ashara was during the war: she was in King's Landing with Elia (she was one of Elia's ladies in waiting). Ned didn't get into King's Landing until the end of the war.

It's not that hard to tell a younger baby from an older one. Catelyn said that Robb was older. But more definitively, Martin has said that Jon is nine months older than Dany (in the Thus Spake Martin collection; I believe the link would still be in the old board's FAQ called something like "How Old is Everybody?" if that's still accessible). Daenerys Stormborn was conceived about the time King's Landing fell, which puts Jon's birth at that time. That puts his conception several months into the war, after the marriage of Ned and Catelyn.

I think that Ashara knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna and wanted to help . . . possibly because of her fondness for Lyanna's brother. If Wylla was a Dayne servant, she may well have been the wetnurse at Tower of Joy (it's reasonable to assume that they had one; noblewomen didn't tend to nurse their own children). Certainly Wylla is facilitating the spread of the story that she is Jon's mother, although if she were his mother there'd be no reason whatsoever not to tell Jon, Catelyn, and the National Enquirer. And the same is true of Ashara: whether she's dead or not, she's no longer in Westeros under her own identity and therefore any damage to her reputation can't really hurt her.

[Artanaro]

We do know where Ashara was during the war: she was in King's Landing with Elia (she was one of Elia's ladies in waiting).

Here's the quote you're thinking of.

...

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

...

As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall [side comment, I thought this referred to something entirely different initially], as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar. (SSM #34)

This doesn't confirm that Ashara was at King's Landing throughout the war. It doesn't disprove either, but if you have better evidence to that arguement, I'm curious. I can't find a quote from the text to match your case. Also, Martin doesn't say definitively nine months. I still think there's room to say Jon was conceived before Robb. However, I'm not an expert on how possible it is to determing if a baby is older or younger than another. If anyone would like to comment, please do on that.

It's not that hard to tell a younger baby from an older one. Catelyn said that Robb was older. But more definitively, Martin has said that Jon is nine months older than Dany (in the Thus Spake Martin collection; I believe the link would still be in the old board's FAQ called something like "How Old is Everybody?" if that's still accessible). Daenerys Stormborn was conceived about the time King's Landing fell, which puts Jon's birth at that time. That puts his conception several months into the war, after the marriage of Ned and Catelyn.

I still haven't ruled out Jon is conceived by Ashara and Ned after his marriage to Catelyn.

And the same is true of Ashara: whether she's dead or not, she's no longer in Westeros under her own identity and therefore any damage to her reputation can't really hurt her.

Here's my arguement against this. Ned doesn't refuse to talk about Jon's mother on the basis of ruining her reputation. It's the same reason he doesn't tell Catelyn about Wylla. He needs Ashara to suddenly disappear and he can't give clues others might be able to trace. If she has a child, that plays against the theory that she would commit suicide. Everything comes back to removing attention from Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, as well as Ashara's disappearance.

Artanaro

[Bran's Muffin]

This theory suggests that Ashara faked her suicide

I'm pretty much in the R+L=J camp but I have often wondered about this. Since when Ygritte tells her story about Bael the Bard (where the singer steals the daughter of Lord Stark which many people have connected to R/L), it ends with the mother throwing herself off a tower in grief when she discovers her son killed his father. I just thought it was a little too coinicidental that both tales began with a Stark girl disappearing and ended with a woman throwing herself off a tower.

[blackbull1685]

Artanaro,

If Ned couldn't trust Wylla with the whole truth of R+L's child, then why bring her into the story at all? We know Wylla exist per Ned Dayne, if she is commonborn, Whats to keep her from selling the fact that she didn't have Ned's kid to the highest bidder. Testimony like that can raise dangerous questions in the hands of someone like Varys or Littlefinger. It would be much safer to just make some woman up until Jon is old enough.

As far as who came first between Robb and Jon: If Jon was born a few weeks premature, then he could be months older than Robb and no-one would be the wiser. I don't think this is the case, because Jon has no history of being sickly like a majority of people born premature struggle with during their lives.

[My Lady Ashalind]

If I remember correctly, Robb was a yr old when Cat left Riverrun for Winterfell. The two boys are of an age, Robb could easliy have been a bigger and maybe even faster developmentally then Jon which could give the appearance of Robb being older.

[direwen]

I disagree with you on the timing of Dany's birth. I believe she was born shortly after the fall of King's Landing (sorry no quote for that). If I'm correct, and we use her age as a reference, that would change Jon's age to younger, which then pushes his conception later.

edited to add, this quote below is from shewoman, I didn't quote correctly somehow.

...It's not that hard to tell a younger baby from an older one. Catelyn said that Robb was older. But more definitively, Martin has said that Jon is nine months older than Dany (in the Thus Spake Martin collection; I believe the link would still be in the old board's FAQ called something like "How Old is Everybody?" if that's still accessible). Daenerys Stormborn was conceived about the time King's Landing fell, which puts Jon's birth at that time. That puts his conception several months into the war, after the marriage of Ned and Catelyn.

[Artanaro]

If Ned couldn't trust Wylla with the whole truth of R+L's child, then why bring her into the story at all? We know Wylla exist per Ned Dayne, if she is commonborn, Whats to keep her from selling the fact that she didn't have Ned's kid to the highest bidder. Testimony like that can raise dangerous questions in the hands of someone like Varys or Littlefinger. It would be much safer to just make some woman up until Jon is old enough.

Because R+L=J is a grave secret, but N+A=J isn't. Many of Ned's household servants guess Ashara is probably the mother of Jon. What's important is that it does not become widely known that Ashara is the mother of the child. Many people at Starfall probably know the truth of Jon's origin, but Wylla serves as a protective measure for the rest of Westeros. What's important isn't that no one knows about R+L=J, but that the wrong people (King Robert being one) never find out. Hiding Jon's mother serves to allow for Ashara Dayne to disappear without anyone suspecting her "suicide." Wylla was probably a close friend of the Dayne family and wasn't a major risk to revealing anything.

Artanaro

[blackbull1685]

Because R+L=J is a grave secret, but N+A=J isn't. Many of Ned's household servants guess Ashara is probably the mother of Jon. What's important is that it does not become widely known that Ashara is the mother of the child. Many people at Starfall probably know the truth of Jon's origin, but Wylla serves as a protective measure for the rest of Westeros. What's important isn't that no one knows about R+L=J, but that the wrong people (King Robert being one) never find out. Hiding Jon's mother serves to allow for Ashara Dayne to disappear without anyone suspecting her "suicide." Wylla was probably a close friend of the Dayne family and wasn't a major risk to revealing anything.

Artanaro

Then why even bring Wylla into it at all? Wouldn't it have been safer if Ned just made some name up? Because she's real, does she know about the R+L child? If not wouldn't she know enough to raise serious questions about the whole affair?

I guess my only problem with the N+A=J theory is that Ned used a real person for his cover story. By the way, I am really enjoying this thread .

[maestro]

It's an interesting theory. One I thought was true, until I read forum on internet giving the R+L=J theory.

I have some remarks on your conceptions though.

Another question I want answered. Why should Ned feel guilty towards Jon? Wouldn't him having a mother be much more cause for guilt than his mother being simply dead?

Let's assume the r+l=j theorie. Why? It's simple. Every child has the right to know who his/her parents are. Same goes for Jon. He never knew the truth and he was always raised as a bastard, sitting at a smaller table and having all ppl gossip about him etc. And especially someone like Ned, who is honourable and all, has to lie to Jon, and it makes him feel guilty... I don't see any flaws in this theorie.

And remember, he doesn't feel guilty towards Catelyn, just Jon.

How do you know? Because it's the only thing he thought of when he was in the black cells? This seems like a bold statement.

I still haven't ruled out Jon is conceived by Ashara and Ned after his marriage to Catelyn.

Now here I disagree. I don't think the honour bound Ned, who has just married and now is in war will bed another woman.

However, I'm convinced that Jon could've been conceived a few months before Robb being. I don't think it's very easy to see if a child is a couple of months older or younger.

So conclusive, I don't either theories are waterproof. But I still think R+L=J is more likely..

[Maia]

If there is nothing fishy about Jon, why was Ned so set against taking him along to KL? As the later books show, noble bastards do appear at court and sometimes even do quite well for themselves. Quite a few noble bastards are officers of the City Watch, etc. and there always would have been an option of sending Jon to SE, to keep company with Edric Storm. Ned's objections were a lie, pure and simple.

Or for that matter why didn't Ned foster/squire Jon with one of his lords as is _usually_ done with noble bastards?

The thing is, Ned was against Jon joining NW so young, yet the _only_ alternative he could envision was Jon staying at Winterfell. Doesn't it strike you as exceedingly strange, Atanaro?

[Xanrn]

No its not safer to "make someone up", if you have two people who wouldn't confirm if they are the parents., well they just protecting each other.

But making someone up, all someone has to do is askk questions and then when they can find no trace off the person...

Robert knew who Wyalla was, he gets her name wrong first couple of tries but he knows.

So this says to me someone named "Wyalla" was with Ned on campaign, add in Martin's quote about Ashara not being nailed down.

Then we have the question, How Ned found the Tower of Joy? He damm well wasn't riding about the country side asking. He rode in with a few trusted men so I say someone told him. Ashara again, betraying Arthur to Ned.

Also look at how Ashara "killed" herself, she jumped off a cliff. Besides from walking into the Sea is there an easier way to fake ones death?

Nothing much is know about Wyalla, you can't make judgements on her character, her beliefs or her loyalties.

aFfC shows a certain place where Dornish children mix freely wether they be Noble, Peasants or Merchants.

Whoes to say Ashara and Wyalla haven't be friends since childhood.

Whoes to say Wyalla isn't a Dayne Bastard and Asharas half sister.

Why would Ned withhold infomation from Catelyn which would make both her and Jon's life much better for the telling? I am sure Ned could trust Catelyn enough to tell her, somewhere in the 15 years they were together.

Why would Ned risk bring up Jon if he was Rhaeger's son? one slip and he would be at War with Robert.

Why not just send Jon to Braavos and have him raised? Ned is rich enough.

I do not believe Lyanna would be stupid/selfish/naive enough to ask Ned to promise to raise this ticking Dragon bomb in Winterfell or himself.

As for

There's also the fact that, while GRRM is always ever so keen on garnering more speculation about his books amongst fans, on readings he is always quite mute about revealing anything about the Jon parentage question, to the point where he says that it may be clear to some, but many others (who don't read forums) don't suspect it and he doesn't want to wake any sleeping dogs

Well that doesn't make much sense, because how do people who don't read the forums find out about this answer to the question in the first place?

If they are bothered enough to attened Cons they are are most likely reading atleast 1 board with discussions about Martin and I have seen the R+L=J on loads of boards, heck wheereever theirs a decent discussion of Martin it popsup.

So this makes no sense in relation to R+L=J theory, which is probably the most widely posted aSoIaF theory on the net.

Now if it was one of the lesser known theories it would make sense, especially as he probably likes people snapping at his Red Herring.

[maestro]

I do not believe Lyanna would be stupid/selfish/naive enough to ask Ned to promise to raise this ticking Dragon bomb in Winterfell or himself.

She will ask him something as 'Ned, promise me you will look after Jon' or 'promise me you'll keep him safe'. I don't think she would say: 'Ned, please raise him with you in winterfell as your bastard, and make sure you don't tell anyone he's my child'. And then it's up to Ned how he keeps Jon safe. Will he keep him close so he can look after him, or will he keep him out of the public eye (and place him with Ashara). But then who would be Jon? Is he the baby of Ned and Ashara? Why make it dificult for himself and bring back Jon to Winterfell. If Ashara is alive, then why not fake her death with baby Jon also?

There's also the fact that, while GRRM is always ever so keen on garnering more speculation about his books amongst fans, on readings he is always quite mute about revealing anything about the Jon parentage question, to the point where he says that it may be clear to some, but many others (who don't read forums) don't suspect it and he doesn't want to wake any sleeping dogs

Well that doesn't make much sense, because how do people who don't read the forums find out about this answer to the question in the first place?

If they are bothered enough to attened Cons they are are most likely reading atleast 1 board with discussions about Martin and I have seen the R+L=J on loads of boards, heck wheereever theirs a decent discussion of Martin it popsup.

So this makes no sense in relation to R+L=J theory, which is probably the most widely posted aSoIaF theory on the net.

Now if it was one of the lesser known theories it would make sense, especially as he probably likes people snapping at his Red Herring.

I didn't knew about this theorie until I read it on the internet. And when I told my friends who also read the book they were shocked. I think a lot of asoiaf readers don't know this theory. And what's up with your conclusions. Stating that 'it makes no sense' to think otherwise than you do? C'mon, if you're not open minded going into a discussion then there isn't a discussion at all. Just ppl giving their stubborn opinions.

[Artanaro]

Let's assume the r+l=j theorie. Why? It's simple. Every child has the right to know who his/her parents are. Same goes for Jon. He never knew the truth and he was always raised as a bastard, sitting at a smaller table and having all ppl gossip about him etc. And especially someone like Ned, who is honourable and all, has to lie to Jon, and it makes him feel guilty... I don't see any flaws in this theorie.

I don't buy this arguement in light of a better explanation. Knowing who someone's parents are, I feel, is important, but at no point would I ever feel shame for robbing them of that knowledge if it was in order to protect them. No, this shame is much better explained by Ned knowing his mother is still alive. That's the main problem with R+L=J, you have to accept so many weak facts as the basis for why Eddard and Ashara do things.

How do you know? Because it's the only thing he thought of when he was in the black cells? This seems like a bold statement.

True, nothing in the text is definitive one way or another. But I find my explanation better fits the facts than R+L=J.

Now here I disagree. I don't think the honour bound Ned, who has just married and now is in war will bed another woman.

Here's is part of the real motivation behind why people don't want to think Jon can be a bastard. They can't contemplate why Eddard could do such a thing. But look at it in this light. If R+L=J is true. Ned must lie to his king and old friend. He lies to Catelyn, a woman he very much loves, every day of his life. And as we know from Catelyn's thoughts, her shame is not Ned having a bastard, but in Ned bringing him back to Winterfell so that he's always in her presence. Ned isn't like Stannis, bent on doing what is lawfully correct always. Ned is obsessed with doing the right thing. Perhaps that's what Ashara wanted most in the world, once chance to love Ned and he felt it was the right thing to do since they could never marry.

Honestly, part of me is starting to think Ned would only take Ashara to bed after he married Catelyn for the obvious reason. He'd have no trouble waiting if he believed he would marry her. But knowing he would never be with his true love, that could have been the reason to do what he did.

If there is nothing fishy about Jon, why was Ned so set against taking him along to KL? As the later books show, noble bastards do appear at court and sometimes even do quite well for themselves.

Maia, I think Ned's reasons are perfectly justified. Bastards can do ok with themselves at court, such as joining a lord's household guard or even rising in one of the government agencies, but Jon would be shunned nevertheless. Though when I think about it, I really can't name many bastards who rose up in the world far from home (besides someone from AFFC). At Winterfell he would have his brothers Rickon and Robb. As a bastard he wouldn't be allowed at the same dinners as Sansa, Arya and Bran. Just sitting at a table with a bastard is considered an insult by Cersei and many other ladies in Westeros. Jon has built up many relationships in the north, but going south, he'd be more than a bastard, he'd be a northern bastard. For someone who worships the old gods and whose customs are remarkably different from most of Westeros, there's even more reason to think Jon would be alone.

Now let me take the opposite opinion, that R+L=J is true. How would going to King's Landing be dangerous whatsoever? Robert sees Jon at Winterfell. Jon knows nothing that could incriminate him. Everyone in Westeros knows about Ned's "bastard", so trying to rationalize Ned as trying to protect Jon doesn't work here.

Or for that matter why didn't Ned foster/squire Jon with one of his lords as is _usually_ done with noble bastards?

I don't believe this is as common as you claim. Mya Stone stayed in the Eyrie. Ramsey lived with his mother as did the Glover bastard. Bastards are generally not warded. What happens is they're raised by their mother. Edric Dayne is one example that agrees with you, but he's warded at Storm's End, not much of an example really. The case with Jon is he doesn't "have a mother". This works in light of N+A=J or R+L=J. In both cases, Jon doesn't have a mother who could raise him. And for the matter of Jon being a squire. Many northern lords don't buy into knighthood, which I presume means they don't have squires (as the normal conception goes).

Artanaro

[My Lady Ashalind]

I figured out the possibility that R&L=J long before I discovered this board, but it is just that a possibility. I also agree that N&A=J is also a possibility.

No matter how you look at it, there is not enough concrete information in the books to prove either way. Both theorys are based on speculation and conjecture and not absolutes. The only thing we know for sure is the a Stark + ?= Jon.

I love a good mystery!

[Artanaro]

I have a question I'm curious what most people's answers are.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna's child did not look like a Stark, but clearly resembled the Targaryens, what would Eddard do when finding the child? A child with blond hair, violet eyes, and even facial resemblences to Rhaegar.

Artanaro

[Shewoman]

I got this from the Citadel (I did not paste in everything from this page).

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/History/History03.html (Citadel)

"When news of Rhaegar's death and the defeat of the royalists reached King's Landing, the newly-pregnant Queen Rhaella and her son Prince Viserys were sent to Dragonstone (I: 25). Princess Elia and Rhaegar's children, including his heir Prince Aegon, were kept at King's Landing by King Aerys, however, due to his paranoid belief that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident and that if he let them go out of his grasp Dorne would do the same to him (III: 419). During this time, King Aerys had been plotting with the pyromancers to lay stocks of wildfire throughout the city so as to destroy it if all seemed lost, a brutal and petulant act that would kill hundreds of thousands for no better reason than to spite Robert; though the possibility is raised that Aerys, the Mad King, believed the wildfire would turn him into a dragon (II: 511. III: 418-419). When his latest Hand, Lord Chelsted, learned of these plans and objected so forcefully that he threw down his chain of office, Aerys had him seized and burned alive in wildfire. Rossart, one of Aerys's pyromancers and complicit in the plot, was made Hand and took the style of lord (III: 418).

However, Queen Rhaella died giving birth to Daenerys during a terrible storm almost precisely nine months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King's Landing."

And this is from Thus Spake Martin: TSM, Mail 34: "Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts."

This puts Jon's birth right around the time of the Sack--possibly one month before it or one month after it. That puts his conception several months into the war. I do not believe that Ned would have impregnated another woman after his marriage to Catelyn. Quite aside from his honor, which is dear to him, he certainly would not after his marriage father a child on Ashara if he loved her, since he could not marry her and she would then be in the unenviable position of a noblewoman giving birth to a bastard. I also don't see how he had access to her around the time of Jon's conception.