Jon is the child of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne

[maestro]

I at first said this theory to be true before I found out about r+l=j theory. But I just thought there is one child. Artano's theory considers 2 children, both R+L and N+A.

I have a question I'm curious what most people's answers are.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna's child did not look like a Stark, but clearly resembled the Targaryens, what would Eddard do when finding the child? A child with blond hair, violet eyes, and even facial resemblences to Rhaegar.

Artanaro

Err.. Put the child on a ship to Yi ti (or whatever is farthest away) and make sure noone ever finds him (or her). Or send the child to the wall together with Benjen and let him take care of the child. (hmm they don't take babes on the wall do they?)

But what if the child didn't..

What if Lyanna didn't die? What if she gave birth to triplets? What ifs don't cut it for me.

Sometimes the best place to hide something is in plain view.

So what about the promise then. If he gave the baby to Ashara, why did he took his own to Winterfell? It just all seems too far fetched.

[My Lady Ashalind]

I like the idea of triplets

owwww the drgon has three heads!!

[Artanaro]

But what if the child didn't..

What if Lyanna didn't die? What if she gave birth to triplets? What ifs don't cut it for me.

For the last part, what ifs that we know didn't happen, I agree, are debatable points. However, I'm starting to think that this really is the case.

Err.. Put the child on a ship to Yi ti (or whatever is farthest away) and make sure noone ever finds him (or her). Or send the child to the wall together with Benjen and let him take care of the child. (hmm they don't take babes on the wall do they?)

You can't do either of these options. Eddard could no more take such a child home with him, than just kill the child and be done with it. He loved Lyanna. He needs to have someone he could trust with all his heart protect the child and raise him as her/his own. And Benjen can't take the child to the wall, not only because it's unfair to the child, but that wouldn't stop Robert from finding out. If Robert finds out, the child is dead.

Artanaro

[maestro]

Eddard could no more take such a child home with him..

And that's where we disagree

[Maia]

Maia, I think Ned's reasons are perfectly justified. Bastards can do ok with themselves at court, such as joining a lord's household guard or even rising in one of the government agencies, but Jon would be shunned nevertheless. Though when I think about it, I really can't name many bastards who rose up in the world far from home (besides someone from AFFC). At Winterfell he would have his brothers Rickon and Robb. As a bastard he wouldn't be allowed at the same dinners as Sansa, Arya and Bran. Just sitting at a table with a bastard is considered an insult by Cersei and many other ladies in Westeros.

We have seen several bastards doing quite well for themselves in AFFC, we have seen bastards among the lists of KG, there were bastards in the Dornish embassy to court, Garse Tyrell's bastards were promised comissions in the Goldcloaks, some of the higher officers of the Goldcloaks are bastards, Stannis made a bastard his castellan, etc. etc. No, Jon wouldn't sit at the feasts with his siblings. No more than perfectly trueborn Lancel and Tyrek Lannisters sat with their royal cousins, BTW. His rank is nowhere _near_ theirs. It is that of a minor lordling. And as such, he could have entered Robert's service, the Royal Fleet, the City Watch or even been married to some heiress of knightly holdings. Yes, bastards are shunned a bit wherever they go, but it wasn't any different at the Wall. There was a wealth of options for honourable independant careers for Jon in KL.

Now let me take the opposite opinion, that R+L=J is true. How would going to King's Landing be dangerous whatsoever? Robert sees Jon at Winterfell. Jon knows nothing that could incriminate him. Everyone in Westeros knows about Ned's "bastard", so trying to rationalize Ned as trying to protect Jon doesn't work here..

Three things. First of all, there are other people living who know the truth and they are rabid Targ loyalists. They wouldn't dare to try to get hold of Jon in Winterfell, but if Jon was somewhere else, particulary in the south they could get in contact, reveal the truth to Jon and try to gain his cooperation. You don't think that Jon would be quite pissed to learn that his birthright was stolen from him, his father slandered, etc, just so Ned's drunken buddy Robert can rest his behind on the stolen throne in peace?

Secondly, with Jon right before their eyes somebody who wants to undermine Ned could start to dig... and Ned's clumsy cover story would split at the seams.

Thirdly, children sometimes inherit their parents mannerisms. Maybe Jon has a couple of Rhaegar's so it wouldn't be prudent to exhibit him to people who knew Rhaegar well, such as Varys, Barristan or Pycelle.

I don't believe this is as common as you claim. Mya Stone stayed in the Eyrie. Ramsey lived with his mother as did the Glover bastard.

We don't know who Ramsey's mother was and IMHO it was quite likely that he was squired to somebody because he is quite proficient as a knight. "Glover bastard" is Larence Snow, the Horwood bastard who was fostered by the Glovers. Surely, if a Hornwood bastard was good enough for them to foster, they would have been delighted with a Stark one? Lots of Frey bastards are knights - so have squired for somebody. Ergo Aurane Waters. Theon had a Botley bastard as a squire. Edric Storm was ward of Ser Courteney Penrose, etc. Mya was apparently never anknowledged by Robert and he did nothing to ensure her future. There would have been lots of middle-tier lordlings who'd have loved to foster her if Robert had anknowledged her and bothered to make the arrangements. Etc.

If the child had been Targ-looking, Ned would have to claim that Ashara was the mother and take the Daynes into his confidence. But since I think that the child(ren) were at Starfall anyway, having been taken away from TOJ shortly before Ned's arrival, it is almost certain that the Daynes already knew. Even Ned wouldn't be stupid enough to take a detour to Starfall with a newborn in tow or send the baby ahead without establishing its cover story. If he went to Starfall, it was becuase he knew that Jon was there, IMHO.

[Bad Wolf]

. "Glover bastard" is Larence Snow, the Horwood bastard who was fostered by the Glovers. Surely, if a Hornwood bastard was good enough for them to foster, they would have been delighted with a Stark one?

IIRC, Larence Snow is the son of a Glover woman by Lord Hornwood, so it's not a case of him being fostered out, but staying with his mother.

[Maia]

IIRC, Larence Snow is the son of a Glover woman by Lord Hornwood, so it's not a case of him being fostered out, but staying with his mother.

? Not according to the books and that's the first time I hear about it. His mother is never mentioned at all. IIRC the only woman of Glover blood we ever heard about was Jeor Mormont's first wife.

[Artanaro]

We don't know who Ramsey's mother was and IMHO it was quite likely that he was squired to somebody because he is quite proficient as a knight. "Glover bastard" is Larence Snow, the Horwood bastard who was fostered by the Glovers. Surely, if a Hornwood bastard was good enough for them to foster, they would have been delighted with a Stark one?

On this point I may of assumed something that's not definite. Here's the quote from the book.

"[T]he Glovers are fostering Lord Harys' bastard at Deepwood Motte. ...

That would please the Glovers, and perhaps Lord Hornwood's shade as well." (ACOK 190)"

This does mention fostering, but it doesn't say one way or another whether the child is from the area. I wouldn't use this example as a ward though, but it is something to think about. Let me cover the other issues you raise.

We have seen several bastards doing quite well for themselves in AFFC, we have seen bastards among the lists of KG, there were bastards in the Dornish embassy to court, Garse Tyrell's bastards were promised comissions in the Goldcloaks, some of the higher officers of the Goldcloaks are bastards, Stannis made a bastard his castellan, etc. etc.

The majority of these examples of bastards have ties to very important people. I'm not saying Jon couldn't make out a good living in King's Landing, I'm saying Ned is thinking about his happiness. The Sandsnakes are an anomaly in any interpretation. They ride with Oberyn, because they're his children, and Oberyn isn't the kind of person it's easy to say no to. But for the record, not one sandsnake is made an important government official. Positions in the Goldcloaks or with Stannis are quite out of the ordinary of noble life. The majority of people in the Goldcloaks are commoners. The leader was Janos Slynt, the son of a butcher. As with the Night's Watch bastards have the ability to advance, but my arguement is Jon will the obstracized in the social aspects of King's Landing. There's nothing to stop him from finding happiness as a commoner (I don't mean to be derogatory). But his entire social sphere is already among the nobility. And Stannis is a bad example to use, because his Hand of the King is a former smuggler. That shows what little he thinks of Westeros stereotypes. But many people put weight in them, for good or ill.

Three things. First of all, there are other people living who know the truth and they are rabid Targ loyalists. They wouldn't dare to try to get hold of Jon in Winterfell, but if Jon was somewhere else, particulary in the south they could get in contact, reveal the truth to Jon and try to gain his cooperation. You don't think that Jon would be quite pissed to learn that his birthright was stolen from him, his father slandered, etc, just so Ned's drunken buddy Robert can rest his behind on the stolen throne in peace?

Interesting comment, but I don't think I'll touch this one.

Secondly, with Jon right before their eyes somebody who wants to undermine Ned could start to dig... and Ned's clumsy cover story would split at the seams.

As Littlefinger says, it's generally bad manners to ask about someone's bastard. Nevertheless, what cover story do you refer to? Ned doesn't lie about Jon. He refuses to talk about him, whether to Catelyn, Robert, or any one. Jon would be just as safe at Winterfell as he would be in King's Landing.

Thirdly, children sometimes inherit their parents mannerisms. Maybe Jon has a couple of Rhaegar's so it wouldn't be prudent to exhibit him to people who knew Rhaegar well, such as Varys, Barristan or Pycelle.

Many people unrelated have the same mannerisms, that doesn't prove anything. However, if a child with blond hair, violet eyes, and a Targaryen look showed up on the wall, the word would eventually get back to Robert.

Lots of Frey bastards are knights - so have squired for somebody. Ergo Aurane Waters. Theon had a Botley bastard as a squire. Edric Storm was ward of Ser Courteney Penrose, etc. Mya was apparently never anknowledged by Robert and he did nothing to ensure her future. There would have been lots of middle-tier lordlings who'd have loved to foster her if Robert had anknowledged her and bothered to make the arrangements. Etc.

I don't think I explained my point well originally. You're arguement is why wouldn't Ned squire off his son, if he really was his son. It goes back to the north's idea of knights and men of war. Squires aren't the prestigous position they are in the south. Why doesn't Robb squire for anyone? Jaime Lannister was the heir, but he squired. So was Edmure. My point is, in the north, children are taught how to fight by their master of arms, rather than being apprenticed to someone. Jon doesn't become a squire, because the Starks don't become knights. Also, let me back up. Why would Ned want to ward his son? He loves him. He wants to be his father. And from my theory he loves Ashara and promises her that he will take care of him. These aren't the conditions for having him warded off. Wards are generally used to strengthen bonds among allies, friendly lords, or even enemies. Ned could have warded Jon, but having not done so, doesn't prove anything.

But I still say, taking a bastard ward isn't as popular as you make it out to be. Perhaps with the right financial incentives it can be though. There are examples for either side.

If the child had been Targ-looking, Ned would have to claim that Ashara was the mother and take the Daynes into his confidence. But since I think that the child(ren) were at Starfall anyway, having been taken away from TOJ shortly before Ned's arrival, it is almost certain that the Daynes already knew. Even Ned wouldn't be stupid enough to take a detour to Starfall with a newborn in tow or send the baby ahead without establishing its cover story. If he went to Starfall, it was because he knew that Jon was there, IMHO.

Daynes, despite their eyes, look quite different from Targaryens. Their hair color is a different shade. Not all blond people (in terms of their hair) look alike. Ned taking the Daynes into his confidence isn't the problem. It's about insuring the child's safety from Robert's friends. Here's another point I find troublesome with R+L=J. If he finds Jon at the Tower of Joy, why take the risk in going to Starfall at all? It just opens more chances to be exposed. If his plan is to foster him at Winterfell, he needs to find his way back as soon as possible. Though there is one problem with this. A newborn baby needs a mother to feed for the most part. That's why Ashara makes more sense as the person who can steal a baby away from Robert's grasp. Having just given birth, she is the only one that could take care of Lyanna's child on a voyage away from Westeros. She's also the one person Ned can trust with such a secret. It's also why he must have Wylla be Jon's mother for the time being. Jon's real mother won't be around to take care of him.

Artanaro

[back_packn]

Sorry it's taken me a little bit to get back to this post. I wanted to address a few of the points below.

like what? I've looked over everything the R+L=J camp uses and my theory fits perfectly.

I'm not saying you don't have a valid theory. You claim that your points support this theory OVER the R+L=J, but most of your arument is based on your claim that there wasn't enough reason for Ashara to commit suicicde. I dont' see how this in any way makes Jon more likely to be Ashara's son than Lyanna. There is more evidence of Jon being Lyanna's.

Let me handle all these points. You use an analogy of people in the military. But people aren't committing suicide left and right when they hear about their loved ones overseas dying.

The point behind my analogy is that you try to make is sound like that because Arthur was a member of the KG, then Ashara should have expected him to die, and that's just not the case. No matter what his duty was, she isn't going to actually expect him to die.

If Ned had told people that Jon's mother was Ashara, why would that all of a sudden have people question her suicide? If anything, it could add credibility to it. (Which, theres no reason to think that anyone even questions it for one second, already.)

Currently we have these reason for her suicde:

- Her brother is killed

- Her brother is killed by the man she loves

- The man she loves is now willingly in a loveless marriage

- The man she loves is having a child with his brand new wife

- The man she loved has an illigitimate child with yet a third woman

If Jon was revealed to be Ashara's son, then we would have:

- Her brother is killed

- Her brother is killed by the man she loves

- The man she loves is now willingly in a loveless marriage

- The man she loves is having a child with his brand new wife

- She is carrying her love's child while he is off getting married to a woman he doesn't know AND is getting her pregnant with child.

How is that any more unbelivable than the first scenario. I don't think Ned revealing Jon to be Ashara's son would raise any unnecisary questions about her death. And it would have solved a lot of grief in Ned, Catlyn, and Jon's lives.

People keep assuming Wylla would know the truth behind Jon's parenthood, because if she's not the mother, she would need some idea who was. Why would Eddard Stark take into his confidence a wet nurse, someone who he probably never met before in his life, such a grave secret as Jon being the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna? And what story could he tell Wylla to convince her to claim the child as her own?

Well, Ned did have to have a wetnurse for Jon. He had to pick SOMEONE. And since he was in "foreign land", he didn't have a whole heck of a lot of choice did he? And why would Wylla need to know who Jon's parents are? She just a servent; it's none of her business. And who ever said Wylla claimed to be Jon's mother? There's no telling where that rumor started.

Another question, people assume taking Jon back to Winterfell is the "honorable" thing to do. I so disagree. It makes an eternal wall between him and Catelyn, so why would he do this if the child's mother (or proclaimed mother, Wylla) is still alive? Why can't he just give the child to Wylla to raise?

Of course this question is really only revelant to those who belive Wylla is Jon's mother. If you belive it's Lyanna, than this question is self-explanitory.

Another question, in his thoughts he says he needs to tell Jon about his mother? Why never mention of revealing who his father is also?

[/qoute]

Because Ned didn't care about who Jon's father is, per say. He loved and raised Jon because he was Lyanna's son. Also, because he was still trying to hide Jon's identity. I don't think Ned was wanting to reveal that there was a half-targ running around. He probably would have told Jon that he was Lyanna's son, but didn't know who his father was.

Ned feals quilty because of the grief it's caused those he loves. Ned feals quilting because he has damaged his own honor by claiming Jon as his own. (I do hope you point wasn't why he can't reveal his parents since they are dead.)

I would say there's less evidence for Ashara being Jon's mother than their is for Lyanna or Wylla either one.

There's really only about once piece of textual evidence, and that would be that Ned and Ashara were in love.

Edit:

Just thought of another think that bothers me about your theory. We in the world would Ashara give up her own child so easily? Why would she not have gone into hiding with her own child as well as the "Targ" child? Why send hers away?

[back_packn]

I do not believe Lyanna would be stupid/selfish/naive enough to ask Ned to promise to raise this ticking Dragon bomb in Winterfell or himself.

This has got to be the weakest argument. Lyanna was "stupid/selfish/naive" enough to run away from her home (and her marriage) with the crown price of the kingdom, who was married. Ultimately causing the death of her father and brother, and pluging the realm into war. But it's INCONCEIVABLE that, on her death bed, she would ask her beloved brother to take care of hew new born child.

[Nine of Spades]

Lyanna was "stupid/selfish/naive" enough to run away from her home (and her marriage) with the crown price of the kingdom, who was married.

This is an assumption. There is nothing substantial to support or refute this point. We can speculate, but the bottom line is we dont know.

[maestro]

This is an assumption. There is nothing substantial to support or refute this point. We can speculate, but the bottom line is we dont know.

lol. Everything here is an assupmtion. Isn't that the purpose of the forum? Unless GRRM comes here posting his thoughts about his story it's all going to be speculation.

[Maia]

The majority of these examples of bastards have ties to very important people. I'm not saying Jon couldn't make out a good living in King's Landing, I'm saying Ned is thinking about his happiness.

And Ned thought that Jon would be happiest at the Wall?!!! Remember that Ned was opposed to Jon joining NW at such a young age and unhappy about it... but for some reason saw it as the _only_ alternative to Jon staying at WF. Pretty strange, given that there was a lot of options for a Great Lord's bastard. And of course, Jon would have had ties to very important people - he was son of the Hand, for Pete's sake and said Hand was also the King's closest friend. The Sandnakes are female, so the comparison doesn't really apply. Besides, given somewhat different personalities they may have done better for themselves. They do think that they should be given command of Dornish armies (!) however, so their status is quite high. I also remember Ser Daemon Sand, the Bastard of Godsgrace having a lot of clout. But anyway.

Positions in the Goldcloaks or with Stannis are quite out of the ordinary of noble life. The majority of people in the Goldcloaks are commoners. The leader was Janos Slynt, the son of a butcher.

Jon's rank is not a lordly one, but rather the equivalent of a knightly one and there is a lot of knights among the officers of the City Watch - Ser Jacelyn Bywater, Ser Humphrey Waters, etc. It is true that Slynt is lowborn, but we don't know under what circumstances he got his position (I suspect LF's connivance). I imagine that it was one more example of Robert's ineptitude that such a man got this command. The City Watch of Oldtown is commanded by a highly aristocratic Ser Moryn Tyrell, for instance. Also, there were lowborn people and bastards even among the KG and Ser Addam Marbrand wasn't in any way slighted when named to comand the Goldcloaks by Tywin.

As with the Night's Watch bastards have the ability to advance, but my arguement is Jon will the obstracized in the social aspects of King's Landing.

Ah, but that's Jon's own skewered perception, abetted by unusual circumstances of his upbringing. His "social sphere" never was and shouldn't have been one of the High Lord, but that of a knight or a minor lordling. He would have fitted there quite well and would have met less ostracism than at the Wall, I bet. I notice that Lancel and Tyrek were never bitter that they didn't get to sit at the King's table, LOL, and they are quite trueborn. Jon's upbringing gave him ideas above his station (as Cat had rightly feared), that's all.

Ned doesn't lie about Jon. He refuses to talk about him, whether to Catelyn, Robert, or any one.

He did tell Robert the lame cover story about Wylla and many in KL think that Ashara was the mother. Somebody like Varys or LF could well try to check the facts and find out that they don't fit - that nobody saw any woman around Ned at any time during the war, that the newborn child mysteriously appeared after Ned's visit to the TOJ, etc.

Squires aren't the prestigous position they are in the south. Why doesn't Robb squire for anyone?

Debatable. The Glover heir squired for Brandon and the case has been made for Theon squiring for Ned - he held Ice for him during Gared's trial, IIRC. And if Ned wanted to keep Jon at WF he hardly could have sent Robb away - it would have created a very wrong impression . It is also possible that after having lost a lot of young boys during the 2 relatively recent wars, northern lords preferred to keep their remaining kids/grandkids close at the time of the books.

Personally, IMHO, GRRM just didn't think through a lot of niceties of his societal system when he wrote AGOT. Starks are rather implausibly isolated there, Cat has no ladies-in-waiting or trusted servants, there are no relatives from Ned's mom's side, no squires or wards apart from Theon in WF, etc.

Anyway, I am talking about when Ned decides to go to KL as a Hand and Cat refuses to keep Jon at WF. The most sensible solutions would have been to either take Jon along and help him to make a career at KL, _or_ to squire/foster him to some northern lord, particulary since we learned in AFFC that Ned's intention was to set Jon up in the Gift as a minor lordling come spring. Yes, Ned probably would have had to pay such a lord with money or favors, perhaps taking lord's own son as a ward/squire and bringing him to court, etc., but it was quite feasible and much better than just sending Jon to NW at 14, which Ned was clearly unhappy about, but for some reason saw no way out of.

Daynes, despite their eyes, look quite different from Targaryens. Their hair color is a different shade.

Arianne thought to herself that the Darkstar was quite Targ-looking, IIRC and Edric's descriprion is quite similar to Egg's. And anyway, the kid wouldn't have been a carbon copy of Rhaegar, having some Stark genes, too. Some Targs had ash-blond hair as well and their eyes were different shades of indigo, violet and lilac. No, the colouring of such a child could be amply explained by the Dayne blood with nobody the wiser.

If he finds Jon at the Tower of Joy, why take the risk in going to Starfall at all?

Which is why I think that Jon was taken to Starfall shortly before Ned showed up at the TOJ. The KG wanted to prevent Ned talking to Lyanna so that Jon's whereabouts would remain a secret and he could be raised by Targ loyalists.

[back_packn]

This is an assumption. There is nothing substantial to support or refute this point. We can speculate, but the bottom line is we dont know.

Which part is assumption, that the crown prince was married? That Lyanna was already engaged?

I'm assuming that you are refering to her leaving with Rhaegar willingly, instead of being kidnapped? (Since all the rest is fact: Lyanna was "promised". Rhaegar was married. Lyanna and Rhaegar were togther.) It's a little more than just speculation that she ran off with him willingly; it's almost a certiainty. There's really only one person in the entire book that thinks she was kidnapped and rapped, and that's Robert.

[maestro]

Which part is assumption, that the crown prince was married? That Lyanna was already engaged?

I'm assuming that you are refering to her leaving with Rhaegar willingly, instead of being kidnapped? (Since all the rest is fact: Lyanna was "promised". Rhaegar was married. Lyanna and Rhaegar were togther.) It's a little more than just speculation that she ran off with him willingly; it's almost a certiainty. There's really only one person in the entire book that thinks she was kidnapped and rapped, and that's Robert.

Don't forget Brandon

[back_packn]

What makes you think Bradon thought that he kidnapped her? It was still a great offense to the Starks even if she did run off with him willingly. He was a married adult, while she was still a teen. I would have had the same reaction if it had been my sister. Rhaegar still should have been the responsiable adult.

[Grant Dempsey]

What makes you think Bradon thought that he kidnapped her? It was still a great offense to the Starks even if she did run off with him willingly. He was a married adult, while she was still a teen. I would have had the same reaction if it had been my sister. Rhaegar still should have been the responsiable adult.

Brandon rode to King's Landing demanding Rhaegar's head. If he knew Lyanna had gone with Rhaegar willingly, I'd assume his reaction would've at least been less drastic than that.

[maestro]

Brandon rode to King's Landing demanding Rhaegar's head. If he knew Lyanna had gone with Rhaegar willingly, I'd assume his reaction would've at least been less drastic than that.

amen.

[Nine of Spades]

I'm assuming that you are refering to her leaving with Rhaegar willingly, instead of being kidnapped? (Since all the rest is fact: Lyanna was "promised". Rhaegar was married. Lyanna and Rhaegar were togther.) It's a little more than just speculation that she ran off with him willingly; it's almost a certiainty. There's really only one person in the entire book that thinks she was kidnapped and rapped, and that's Robert.

Well, that would be one more person who thought she was kidnapped then we have seen state that she thought she went willingly. The rest is just speculation based on interpretations.

My point being is that if someone says "Lyanna wouldnt do something so irresponsible", you cant site something that she may not done at all as proof that she is in fact prone to flights of irresponsibility. Your using your assumptions as proof of your assumptions.

[Xanrn]

So instead of dissprooving my point you confirm it?

Nice thanks for the help.

If Martin had answered the question, where would the answer be? Online.

If people don't know the theory cause their not online or not looking online, how in the name of hell are they going to see this answer... thats also online?

So along came you and said you didn't know the theory till you saw it online (here I take?) Well than how are you going to know Martin confirmed the theory without coming to places where the theory is already posted.

Catch 22 and thats why it doesn't make sense in relation to R+L=J.

Hands up anyone on the board who doesn't know this theory? *crickets* Nope, thought not.

If people are not activelly searching for discussions and theories on aSoIaF? how likely are they to stumble across Martin quotes?

If they are searching for discussions and theories, they will know R+L=J.