Shae and Tywin

[scottrick49]

Tyrion found Shae in the tower of the hand when he was escaping. It seems to me that Tywin was fooling around with Shae. Am I the only one who is surprised by this? Was Lord Tywin bedding the same whore he was scolding his son for? Or did I miss something.

[Fleeing Finn]

[quote name='scottrick49' post='1540564' date='Oct 2 2008, 16.45']Tyrion found Shae in the tower of the hand when he was escaping. It seems to me that Tywin was fooling around with Shae. Am I the only one who is surprised by this? Was Lord Tywin bedding the same whore he was scolding his son for? Or did I miss something.[/quote]

Yes he was. Think he got some kicks out of it, the old perv :cool:

[BoldAsYouPlease]

[quote name='scottrick49' post='1540564' date='Oct 2 2008, 13.45']Tyrion found Shae in the tower of the hand when he was escaping. It seems to me that Tywin was fooling around with Shae. Am I the only one who is surprised by this? Was Lord Tywin bedding the same whore he was scolding his son for? Or did I miss something.[/quote]

I don't think you missed anything. We read that Tywin was greatly ashamed by his father's attachment to a whore and professes to despise prostitutes, but at the time of the story Tywin has been a widower for many years. He hasn't remarried and he hasn't even taken on a mistress that Martin has revealed. Instead, he's obviously as reliant on prostitutes as his own father ever was - as reliant as the deformed dwarf son he ridicules for employing whores. I think Tywin expresses his self-loathing over his own "baser needs" in his hatred for Tyrion, whose use of prostitutes is a constant reminder to Tywin of his own issues. His decision to bed Tyrion's own whore just seems like the ultimate expression of that hate and self-loathing.

[Lampmonster]

I agree with the above. Part of Tywin's hate for Tyrion is his recognition of himself in Tyrion's flaws. Remember Tyrion's aunt says that Tywin didn't speak to her for years for suggesting that Tyrion was Tywin's true son and not Jaime.

[Miriel]

There is a counter theory on this that holds that Varys set Tyrion up to kill Tywin. In this theory, Varys had planted Shae in Tywin's bed just when he knew Tyrion would find her. There are lots of threads devoted to it, a search under "Varys planted Shae" should get you started.

[Jaimes_Right_Hand]

No I honestly think that Tywin was "playing around" with Shae. From what I believe, Shae was gorgeous. Tywin was (not only powerful) but lonely, sexually, and Shae was in many ways seductive.

But as mentioned above, Tywin would ridicule and despise Tyrion due to him displaying many of Tywin's on flaws.

[Kuzbad]

Kind of funny that of all the Lannisters Jaime sleeps around the least.

Of course he's got his own little sexual trifle...

[Jaimes_Right_Hand]

[quote name='Kuzbad' post='1541028' date='Oct 2 2008, 22.05']Kind of funny that of all the Lannisters Jaime sleeps around the least.

Of course he's got his own little sexual trifle...[/quote]

;)

[Piper]

The "Varys planned the whole thing" theory is at least worth entertaining, if for no other reason that, well, its entertaining.

Consider when Tyrion asks how to get to the Hand's chambers:

[indent][i]He looked up the shaft. “How far must I climb?”

“My lord, you are too weak for such follies, and there is besides no time. We must go.”

“I have business above. How far?”

“Two hundred and thirty rungs, but whatever you intend—”

“Two hundred and thirty rungs, and then?”

“The tunnel to the left, but hear me—”

“How far along to the bedchamber?” Tyrion lifted a foot to the lowest rung of the ladder.

“No more than sixty feet. Keep one hand on the wall as you go. You will feel the doors. The bedchamber is the third.” He sighed. “This is folly, my lord. Your brother has given you your life back. Would you cast it away, and mine with it?”[/i][/indent]

Varys is saying "under absolutely no circumstances should you go, but hey, here's the exact directions."

Then we have Tywin on the crapper. Interesting in that we've seen Tyrion play the same game before with Cersei; he slips some drug on Pycelle into her meal, and she's glued to the privy for a day or so.

And then, of course, someone was kind enough to place a chest under the crossbow so that Tyrion could reach it. How thoughtful :P

And one would wonder how Tywin could be so brazen talking about whores when Tyrion had just walked past one in Tywins own bed.

Make of the theory what you will. I find it amusing, plausible, but just a bit far fetched. Varys would certainly have motivation for getting Tywin out of the way if he really is backing Dany, though.

[Jaimes_Right_Hand]

[quote name='Piper' post='1541289' date='Oct 3 2008, 00.47']...
Make of the theory what you will. I find it amusing, plausible, but just a bit far fetched. [u][b]Varys would certainly have motivation for getting Tywin out of the way if he really is backing Dany, though.[/b][/u][/quote]

No [i]there's[/i] a thought ;)

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Piper' post='1541289' date='Oct 3 2008, 06.47']And then, of course, someone was kind enough to place a chest under the crossbow so that Tyrion could reach it. How thoughtful :P[/quote]
Also, a dagger on the bed, next to the sleeping ([i]drugged[/i]) Shae.

I wrote a parody of the scene in the [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=1430&st=160&p=276731&#entry276731"]other authors[/url] thread.

Also note the conversation between Tyrion and Tywin. [i]If[/i] Tywin really does know that Shae is in his bed, and [i]if[/i] he really tries to talk his son down, then [i]why[/i] does he suggest they go back to his bedroom? He [i]knows[/i] that Tyrion got the crossbow in the bedroom (he actually asks “Is that my crossbow?”), so he must also know that Tyrion already saw Shae. Why maintain the sanctimonious stance on whores when he must know that his cover has just been blown? Tywin’s dialogue makes no sense at all.

Also: Varys has a ship ready to sail Tyrion out. Where did he get that, if he didn’t plan this at all before he was overpowered by Jaime? And why let himself be overpowered by Jaime in the first place. Read the scene (in FfC): Jaime is sharpening his blade while waiting to ambush Varys — he isn’t even [i]silent[/i]! And Varys, the master of thieves, who has survived the seediest districts of Kings Landing for decades, and also has at least one secret entrance to his own quarters, just walks into his room and lets himself be surprised and threatened by a cripple? No way.

And so on… The brazier (which Varys knows Tyrion can recognise) was lit while the entire rest of the dungeon was pitch black.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Jaimes_Right_Hand' post='1540858' date='Oct 3 2008, 02.39']From what I believe, Shae was gorgeous. Tywin was (not only powerful) but lonely, sexually, and Shae was in many ways seductive.[/quote]
No, Shae was average. Nothing in Tywin’s character is compatible with him sleeping with a third-class whore, especially one already “spoilt” by his crippled son. And in his own chambers? In clear sight of the guards, perhaps? And with the very whore that further soiled his family honour? And she is even wearing his chain, for crying out loud! (Tywin hounded his father’s whore through the streets of Lannisport for festooning herself with Lannister jewellery.)

These are the actions of bizarro-Tywin. Mind you, bizarro-Tywin could be the real Tywin. Maybe everything we’ve seen and head about Tywin so far was wrong. Like him not believing in half-measures (shaving his head when his hair began to fall out), loving his wife to the point of adoration. Maybe it’s all wrong. Maybe he [i]does[/i] go in for half-measures, maybe he does befoul the memory of his wife in his darkest moments. Wearing a wig, perhaps.

But I prefer the theory where Varys is an extremely skilled schemer and Tywin is Tywin. The alternative is that Varys is incompetent and Tywin is bizarro-Tywin.

[lokisnow]

the only problem I have with Varys planting Shae is that there are an awful lot of variables under tension for the scene to play out the way Varys presumably desired. Though Ent makes a very strong case.

I came in with a bit of snark, Shae was actually Tyrion's wife's younger sister! and their mother or father was a Targaryen bastard. :P really, it makes total sense if you think about it! and it's just the sort of thing that GRRM would do! What you think an important character like Tyrion's wife could be just a random commoner? come on, this is a fantasy novel, she has to be someone important with important blood.

[VersusAllOdds]

[quote name='Miriel' post='1540655' date='Oct 3 2008, 00.00']There is a counter theory on this that holds that Varys set Tyrion up to kill Tywin. In this theory, Varys had planted Shae in Tywin's bed just when he knew Tyrion would find her. There are lots of threads devoted to it, a search under "Varys planted Shae" should get you started.[/quote]

then how do you explain the king's hand golden chain around shae's neck??

and btw, there's no doubt in tywin having sex with her. again, back to the golden chain: why was she naked under his blanket wearing it? they weren't playing chess :)

and when i reread ent's posts i was quite intrigued... the fact that varys had the ship ready can be explained in two ways, however:
1) jaime persuaded him to arrange an escape for tyrion more than a day ago. maybe even 2-3... varys is resourceful enough to do that.
2) maybe varys didn't have to bother much about securing a ship for tyrion. he is really resourceful and in a way smart, so im sure that varys could scramble something quickly.

but still, the fact remains that varys is not that vulnerable. he must have been threatened in the past too, but yet he
prevailed. it's the only piece that i don't fully understand.

and btw, my edition of the book has an error, the first and the third page of the last four pages of that tyrion chapter are empty. i was extremely annoyed not to read one of the most interesting parts of the entire asoiaf, and thus i don't have a 100% insight to the situation...

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='VersusAllOdds' post='1541440' date='Oct 3 2008, 11.12']then how do you explain the king's hand golden chain around shae's neck??[/quote]
I don’t understand the question. Somebody (Varys, Shae) put the chain around her neck, when she was arranged in Tywin’s bedroom so as to look like his mistress. It staid there because Shae’s skin doesn’t dissolve metal. What’s the mystery?

(The only thing that requires explanation is if [i]Tywin[/i] is supposed to have done that. That would be out of character, see the backstory with garlanding whores with Lannister jewellery. “Out of character” doesn’t mean “impossible”. But it’s bizarro-Tywin, not Tywin.)

To me, it’s just a blunder of Varys’s that tells [i]us[/i] that there’s no way Tywin could have been involved in this.

[scottrick49]

Yeah that's why I felt I might have been missing something; it seems very out of character for Tywin to bed a whore. But then I almost think the whole idea of Varys planting Shae there for Tyrion to find is even more out there...

[Taemlyn Blackfyre]

Maybe when Tyrion finally sobers up he'll be able to shed some light into his own insights on the whole caper. Assuredly the Imp will want a full accounting from Varys and he is the only one who can piece it together for us. Unfortunately, Tyrion has just killed his father, his lover, been convicted of regicide and is presently at large in the Free Cities. Maybe he'll meet up with Gerion, confess his enormities [i]then [/i] sober up enough to realise he was framed by Varys (if not necessarily in the case of Shae's plant).

[Guest Other-in-law]

For whatever it's worth, I've struggled against the 'Varys planted Shae' theory quite a bit in the past, but ultimately converted to it. It's just too compelling.

One of my reasons for not wanting it to be true was that I wanted Tywin to have been the former hand who had the tunnel to Chataya's built to protect his precious honour. But even that perfect fit is no obstacle; it incorporates in the plant theory easily by merely being more groundwork laid for turning Tyrion against his family...[i]by Varys[/i]. Varys is [i]the only source[/i] for that tale of the Hand's tunnel. Whore-despising Tywin is practically a tailor-made candidate to be that hypocritical Hand, so it would be the perfect way to plant a seed in Tyrion's mind.

In other words, it's not so much that Tywin the tunnel builder is [i]wrong[/i], it's just that that's what Varys [i]wants us[/i] (more importantly Tyrion)[i] to think[/i].

[Krafus]

The theory about Varys planting Shae into Tywin's bed for Tyrion to find when he came to kill Tywin is interesting, but just too far-fatched. It assumes that 1) Varys knew Tyrion would want to kill Tywin before leaving and 2) that Varys knew Tyrion would find Tywin in a vulnerable position from which he couldn't immediately act to defend himself. Even if one accepts 1), 2) is just too much.

Oh, and I'm with those who believe that Shae was in Tywin's bed because he wanted her there. My respect for Tywin dropped several notches at that moment, when he was shown to be a blatant hypocrite. And picking Shae, his own son's whore... that's downright perverted IMO. Maybe he wanted to further punish Tyrion in an indirect way.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1541627' date='Oct 3 2008, 16.06']It assumes that 1) Varys knew Tyrion would want to kill Tywin before leaving and[/quote]
No. It assumes that Varys had some means of getting Tyrion into Tywin’s room.

That’s all.

For example, Varys, [i]en route[/i] to the brazier room, could have flat-out told Tyrion that he new that Tywin was now shagging Shae. From Varys’s POV, that should have been enough to make Tyrion try to find out if that was really true. A dozen other ploys can be imagined. (Not mentioning the possibility that Tyrion would want to kill Tywin “on his own”. He had reason enough.)

As it turned out, Jaime gave Varys an unforeseen gift in the Tysha story. The spider must have laughed himself silly when he overheard that exchange. The whole Shae plant turned out to be superfluous: Tyrion would want to kill Tywin now anyway, Shae or not!

[quote]2) that Varys knew Tyrion would find Tywin in a vulnerable position from which he couldn't immediately act to defend himself.[/quote]
Tywin was poisoned with Widow’s Blood or some other poison, which glued him to the privy shaft for hours. Tyrion himself used that poison on Cersei. This also explains the strange condition of Tywin’s bowels that is reported in FfC and (most damningly) that Tywin shits at the end of the scene. (What else was he doing on the privy all the time if not to take a shit? Masturbate? [i]After[/i] having bedded Shae?)