please help

[Tobin]

[quote name='Billy Clyde' post='1563801' date='Oct 22 2008, 11.38'](Like refusing the wedding and engagement rings! What the hell was I thinking??!!??)[/quote]

He asked me if I wanted to keep my rings - I had taken them off and let them fall when he started talking about getting divorce paperwork.
I told him that they were a potent symbol for me. If I kept them, I would never be able to move on - but if he gave them back to me, it would be that he wanted [i]me[/i] back.
He told me that if I changed my mind, they were they were in his keepsake drawer.

[quote name='Arakasi' post='1563822' date='Oct 22 2008, 11.48']I didn't know your husband well Tobin, but from your time in WoW with us I feel sad about this. My condolences and hope you pull through this okay.[/quote]

WoW was one of the things he cited. Said that for a year or more, WoW took over our lives to the point that for a long time, we didn't really do or say anything that wasn't game related in some way.
He realized how much time we had sunk into the game, time that could have been spent toward finishing house projects or any of a thousand other RL things.
I think it was part of his realization that we hadn't made progress toward our goals of a larger house or children.
He joked that I could have the guild we ran as part of my divorce settlement.


As for hard numbers -
No kids - I haven't been able to get pregnant, something that really bothers him.
His parents are well off, part of the reason I think they're concerned with how things go. It's uncharitable, but I could see his father trying to "protect their investment".
He owned the townhouse we live in (fully paid off) even before I moved in.
I got rid of 75% of my furniture/belongings since his place was already fully furnished.
Technically - we haven't really amassed much since then aside from a few scattered items - most of our money went to computer stuff, electronic toys, food, etc.
His car is paid off - in fact, he doesn't really have flex bills outside of a student loan and a credit card.
I have a car payment and about $2200 in credit card debt (about half of which was stacked during a 6month period that he was out of work - I just never managed to pay it off)


He has offered to help me with money for a while - but I'm reluctant to talk about it, feels too much like vultures picking at bones.
He maintains that he doesn't want to hurt me, he also hasn't kicked me out yet. He said he was willing to let me stay and has taken over the few bills I covered in order to let me try to pay off my credit cards.

I think he's been generous with everything - except for not telling me how he really felt in time that I could have done something about it.

I've written up an expense sheet in excell to help track costs - unfortunately, this is a popular college town. Expensive - rent median is about $450 - $850 for 1/1 apartments.
I think the highest rent I could possibly deal with is about $540 - but that would leave me with only $130 left at the end of the month after all the bills (not a safe amount if something bad happens).
I looked at an efficiency today for $400 in a not so great part of town, but its about half the distance to work. I'm supposed to go back and look at another unit down the hall tomorrow at lunch and possibly sign some paperwork.
I was hoping to stay home until January so I had some money saved or my smaller credit card paid off - but with semester changing during that time, there would be even fiercer competition for affordable apartments.
Another concern is that State offices are having to cut budgets and jobs to survive - so the great new job I applied for that would give me an additional $12k a year may not exist - or might be cut not long after I arrived.

My sister says I could come stay with her if things got really bad - but I did that before when I was in college. I almost killed her until I set my schedule so I wouldn't see her for weeks at a time (get up after she went to work, came in after she went to bed).

My mother lives 5hrs south in a semi-retirement community, so there are no jobs there unless you're in health care. She had talked about moving up here some months ago - not sure she still will.

[Rhom]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1563995' date='Oct 22 2008, 13.28']WoW was one of the things he cited. Said that for a year or more, WoW took over our lives to the point that for a long time, we didn't really do or say anything that wasn't game related in some way.
He realized how much time we had sunk into the game, time that could have been spent toward finishing house projects or any of a thousand other RL things.
I think it was part of his realization that we hadn't made progress toward our goals of a larger house or children.
He joked that I could have the guild we ran as part of my divorce settlement.[/quote]

That was how things were with us as well. We'd be out at dinner and we'd rush to finish so we could be home in time to raid. Or our conversations would be about the latest drama someone in the guild was causing. We tried handing our guild off and quiting raiding to do some things around the house... but then we just found out that if we weren't talking about the game, we didn't like each other. :lol:

My search for an apartment was also frustrating. There are rent controlled apartments just down the street from my office. One of the funnier moments in my life was standing in their rental office in a suit and tie inquiring about how much money is too much. ($300/week... but since I own my own business, I could set my pay at that level if I wanted to in order to qualify.) I swear they had just cleaned up chalk outlines from the orange carpet though, so I ended up going with a 1/1 for about $500/month that was at least presentable to the public for when I started feeling sociable again. I live cheap while I'm getting my feet back under me.

Its hard, there's no way to sugar coat it. But if you're smart about things and rely on family/friends you'll get through it. I've quit WoW now. We had a lot of friends online (some of whom we even traveled to meet IRL) and I never wanted to feel like I had to explain my personal situation to people in a game.

[Altherion]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1563995' date='Oct 22 2008, 19.28']WoW was one of the things he cited. Said that for a year or more, WoW took over our lives to the point that for a long time, we didn't really do or say anything that wasn't game related in some way.[/quote]
Would you be willing to give it up altogether? And if so, have you told him that?

It seems to me that financially, he's being pretty fair. I have no idea what the divorce laws are and so I don't know how much you could get out of this if you try to take a share of the stuff he had before the marriage and/or make him pay alimony, but if you don't feel comfortable about doing so, I would not bother with a lawyer (also, he may not stay friendly if you try to do that).
[quote]I think he's been generous with everything - except for not telling me how he really felt in time that I could have done something about it.[/quote]
There's usually a bit of extra time to do something about anything (death being the obvious exception). If you still really care, you may be able to make it work... it would probably require some compromises on your part (which is why I mentioned WoW above).

[Angalin]

Sorry to hear this, Tobin. :(

I know of a couple, childless but owning a house, who got divorced some years ago. They made an arrangement where he didn't pay alimony, but helped her get set up in a new (rented) place. Mistake on her part, as being a recently-graduated student she had a much lower income than him and their separate standards of living did indeed see those jumps (much better for him, much worse for her) mentioned above. Not much later, he built a new house while she was still in the rental.

I think she would have done it differently if she'd realized quite how it was going to play out. If you don't want to talk about money with him, find someone who will; use a mediator or lawyer or whatever, but don't try to work it out on your own. Please?

[Tears of Lys]

I'm so sorry you're having to go through this.

As others have said, it's probably a good idea to have legal advice, but I'd just caution you to proceed very carefully in hiring an attorney (no offense board attys!) My sister, who lives in N.C., supposedly an excellent state to get a divorce in, especially if you're the aggrieved party, got taken real good by not only her husband, but also the attorney she hired. She put out $8500 up front as a retainer that was supposed to carry through the settlement agreement. Well, she's now out $8500, no settlement agreement, has to pay for housing while he's in teh house SHE put the downpayment on, picked out, and maintained, and all the lawyer says is that she needs more money to take him to court - where there's no guarantee he'll even show, necessitating subpoenas, service fees, etc., etc.

Needless to say, picking the RIGHT attorney is key.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

[quote name='Tears of Lys' post='1564294' date='Oct 22 2008, 17.10']Needless to say, picking the RIGHT attorney is key.[/quote]

Absolutely agree with that.

[Inigima]

My condolences, best of luck, and yes, much as it sucks, you want a lawyer.

Oh, and uh, fuck WoW.

[Tobin]

About Mediation - it came up in some of our conversations, but I think it is still closer to a lawyer than he wants to deal with.

I agreed with him in the idea that when lawyers get involved - things are no longer in your direct control and it gets ugly fast.

I told him my mother/sister were insistent - so he said that he would accept my sister as a mediary since he knew she would try to be fair and mom would feel my interests would be represented.


He's very angry today - but I'm trying to stay calm.

I have two more apartments to look at tomorrow, but I might be moved out as early as Nov.1.

The irony is that Nov. 1 is our 5yr anniversary.

[Kelli Fury]

Tobin-

I cannot stress enough that you should get a lawyer. The belongings you got rid of to merge your life with his kind of make you entitled to a share of the furniture, regardless of whether it was his before or not. You got rid of yours to accomodate it. Your credit card debt is also something he should be liable for and you'll need your lawyer and credit card statements to demonstrate what debt was incurred while he was out of work. As far as your rings, traditionally whoever leaves forfeits that property. You should keep them and sell them or have the stone made into something nice for yourself- I know lots of divorcees who have done this as a means of symbolizing their new life. Any improvements made to the house during your marriage might entitle you to a share of its worth. Too many people do not go after what is theirs in a divorce. From the look of it to me, he hasn't been very generous with you, he's just made you think he is. Paying his own damn bills so you can pay down credit card debt he incurred is not generosity. If the house and everything in it are all his, the expense should always have been all his. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but you sound to me like you are getting screwed, and a lawyer will protect you. And just to throw this out there- I think he's a dick for being bothered you couldn't get pregnant.

[Bronn Stone]

Ending a legal arrangement without good legal advice would be the pinnacle of foolishness.

[Rhom]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1564336' date='Oct 22 2008, 17.35']Ending a legal arrangement without good legal advice would be the pinnacle of foolishness.[/quote]

Agreed. My ex and I decided to keep things simple. She got an attorney to draw things up, I had an attorney friend of mine read it over to make sure it said exactly what we had agreed on. And we moved forward from there.

At the very least, a consultation is in order.

[Nichole]

Please seek legal representation. I think that you need to have someone who knows the laws and the procedures making sure that you do not get screwed. He may have the best of intentions now, but small issues can turn into big issues.

And you might be ablet to be friends eventually, but I think it is good that you are looking at apartments.

And hang in there. :grouphug: I'm sorry you have to go through this.

[Kalbear]

I'm really sorry to hear this, and I'm sorry that you're so hurt.

GET. A. LAWYER.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[quote name='Kay Fury' post='1564334' date='Oct 22 2008, 17.35']Tobin-

I cannot stress enough that you should get a lawyer. The belongings you got rid of to merge your life with his kind of make you entitled to a share of the furniture, regardless of whether it was his before or not. You got rid of yours to accomodate it. Your credit card debt is also something he should be liable for and you'll need your lawyer and credit card statements to demonstrate what debt was incurred while he was out of work. As far as your rings, traditionally whoever leaves forfeits that property. You should keep them and sell them or have the stone made into something nice for yourself- I know lots of divorcees who have done this as a means of symbolizing their new life. Any improvements made to the house during your marriage might entitle you to a share of its worth. Too many people do not go after what is theirs in a divorce. From the look of it to me, he hasn't been very generous with you, he's just made you think he is. Paying his own damn bills so you can pay down credit card debt he incurred is not generosity. If the house and everything in it are all his, the expense should always have been all his. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but you sound to me like you are getting screwed, and a lawyer will protect you. And just to throw this out there- I think he's a dick for being bothered you couldn't get pregnant.[/quote]

Some wise fuckin' words in there. Especially that very last part. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

[Kelli Fury]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1564318' date='Oct 22 2008, 16.20']About Mediation - it came up in some of our conversations, but I think it is still [b]closer to a lawyer than he wants to deal with.[/b]
[b]I agreed with him in the idea that when lawyers get involved - things are no longer in your direct control and it gets ugly fast.[/b]

I told him my mother/sister were insistent - so he said that he would accept my sister as a mediary since he knew she would try to be fair and mom would feel my interests would be represented.


[b]He's very angry today - but I'm trying to stay calm.[/b]

I have two more apartments to look at tomorrow, but I might be moved out as early as Nov.1.

The irony is that Nov. 1 is our 5yr anniversary.[/quote]

The bolded parts are big red flags to me. What does he have to be angry about? He's the one leaving, he has no grounds at all to bitch about the situation. He has forfeited any say in what kind of representation you choose for yourself. Tobin, I know you're really hurting and I feel for you, truly- but why are you willing to possibly ruin your financial future for his happiness? He isn't looking out for you, don't look out for him.

[Annelise]

So sorry. :grouphug:

[gryphon strike]

I am sorry to hear about this Tobin, divorce is not a nice thing but sometimes it is the best thing.

Considering exactly how your now ex seems to be screwing you over I have to agree with what others have said and you really need a good lawyer, you don't even have to tell him about it until he puts his idea of a fair settlement down on paper.
What you have to understand is that he has made it clear by his actions that he doesn't give a shit about you in this process and is just trying to get out of it as cheaply as possible.

Also don't blame yourself because the shit is sterile, from what you have said I am betting he has never had a sperm count.
I also don't understand why you have to move out since it is your home too.
Seriously he is trying to screw you financially so don't let him.

[angie]

[quote name='Kay Fury' post='1564438' date='Oct 22 2008, 18.52']The bolded parts are big red flags to me. What does he have to be angry about? He's the one leaving, he has no grounds at all to bitch about the situation.[/quote]

That was exactly what I thought when I read that. I agree with the rest of the post too, but my first thought was, "why is he angry?".

[gryphon strike]

[quote name='Angie' post='1564452' date='Oct 23 2008, 08.55']That was exactly what I thought when I read that. I agree with the rest of the post too, but my first thought was, "why is he angry?".[/quote]
He is angry because he is ashamed of his actions is my bet Angie. Many people act like that when they know they are doing the wrong thing.

[Tobin]

I think he was angry anyway - he hasn't been sleeping well. He's been brooding about things lately as well. A friend said that if all he's dwelling on the bad stuff that happened to us - he's not going to be willing to think positively about anything I have to say.

I think I sent him over the edge when I told him this morning that my sister wanted a copy of his payment stub so she could see his income.
I could see where he would over-react - but it was a fair request. I think he felt that she was looking for more than what he had offered.
I don't know if he'll listen that she was just trying to make sure that everything was fair (she asked for mine too).



I'm doing better - but I kinda don't want to go home tonight.
He may seem like a dick right now, but he can be really wonderful too.

Gods.
That sounded a bit too much like something a battered wife would say.



Part of me really is excited about getting out on my own - having my own place and my own things around me again. I know it will hurt - and will hurt worse if I run into him at our friends' house with some other girl.
Who knows - maybe I'll end up with a boyfriend to sail past him.

I've been kicking around a [url="http://www.freewebs.com/the-blackwolf-clan/img/Paw-Blued-2-200px.png"]tattoo design[/url]. Be it a symbol of my new life or a reminder not to forget, I'm not sure.