Syrio neither dead nor Jaqen

[Vendetto]

Hear hear ogebaba. Otherin law, you're missing another point. Arya's training was barely begun. Arya was what? 10? Her training, however extensive, was still seen through the eyes of a little girl, with little girl knowledge, hopes, and expectations.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='ogbebaba' post='1580745' date='Nov 6 2008, 22.34']syrio's prospects for defeating trant were very bad[/quote]
Good, so far....
[quote]All the weapons lying on the ground at his feet would only be good for parrying blows until he can escape. This is what any smart man would do after he gave arya time to get away.[/quote]
But now we get back to Syrio make a mockery of himself, scuttling away after just declaring that he wouldn't run, as Cybroleach has so effectively lampooned.

The problem is that the starting point is 'Syrio is teh awesome!' and the ending point is either ludicrous triumph against physics, or Syrio turning into a slapstick hypocrite.
V,
[quote]Otherin law, you're missing another point. Arya's training was barely begun. Arya was what? 10? Her training, however extensive, was still seen through the eyes of a little girl, with little girl knowledge, hopes, and expectations.[/quote]
You're missing the point, and rather spectacularly. Syrio tells her to run away. She starts to do so, watches him take down a couple of cannon fodder red shirts, then[i] he reminds her[/i] to amscray, pronto. She was holding out hopes that he would win, but when she looked with her eyes, as he told so many times, she saw that the very things that allowed him to beat a few hapless nobodies did not apply to Trant. Literally. I invite you to reread the section, the unprotected hands, legs, and faces of the guardsmen are explicitly contrasted with Trant's
[i]
"pale armor head to foot, legs, throat, and hands sheathed in metal, eyes hidden behind his high white helm, and his hand cruel steel. Against that: Syrio in a leather vest, with a wooden sword in his hand."[/i]

It's a bit ironic to think that someone who has been trained by Syrio and was on the scene, watching him bouncing his stick uselessly against a steel greathelm, and slicing his toy wooden sword in two within seconds [i]is the naive one[/i] for coming to the obvious conclusion, while the "knowledge, hopes and expectations" of readers hoping for a miracle are somehow more reasonable.

[SFDanny]

I'm agnostic on whether Syrio is alive or dead. I don't find it unbelievable that he could have survived a battle with Trant - there having been many weapons laying around from the Lannister guards he has just disarmed. I don't think a interpretation of his words about "not running" makes any sense if it means he would throw his life away in a meaningless gesture of bravado by taking on the gold cloaks and the remaining Lannister guards in the Red Keep. It is not unreasonable to think if he survived his fight with Trant, having accomplished his aim of giving Arya the opportunity to escape, that he tries to follow her and escapes himself.

It is also completely possible he died at the hands of Trant and we will never hear of Syrio again.

To me the only real reason to think Syrio might be alive is if it makes sense for Martin to use this character again. By that I don't mean use him because so many fans seem to love the guy, but rather use him because his relationship to the story helps develop the story in a needed way. In that regard, I keep thinking of Arya's development in Braavos and ask myself what is going to get her out of Braavos and back to Westeros? An encounter with Syrio might make sense. Of course, Martin can come up with a thousand other ways to do this, but think about this scenario for a second. What if Arya has to help kill someone as part of her training, and that person turns out to be Syrio? Think that might be a way to jolt her into going AWOL? I'm sure I've guessed wrong, but it would take some sort of story need like that for Martin to bring Syrio back.

[ogbebaba]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1580776' date='Nov 6 2008, 23.01']But now we get back to Syrio make a mockery of himself, scuttling away after just declaring that he wouldn't run, as Cybroleach has so effectively lampooned.

The problem is that the starting point is 'Syrio is teh awesome!' and the ending point is either ludicrous triumph against physics, or Syrio turning into a slapstick hypocrite.
V,[/quote]

The starting point is syrio talking shit letting them know that he is not just a dancing master; he is the first sword of bravos. His coment does not mean that he is a complete moron that thinks he can take all the gold cloaks and the king’s guard on single handedly. Why would he stay and fight?

His comment was just to distract the guards.

Scenario 1 they think he is just a dancing instructor= one guard strolls over to kill him. The others go after arya.



Scenario 2= he boasts that he is the first sword of bravos and maybe he can get the attention of all the guards so arya can get away.





So the starting point is 'Syrio is teh awesome!' risking his life to save arya and the ending point is 'Syrio is not teh awesomely stooped!' and escapes after doing a very brave thing.

[Vendetto]

And, technically he's not running, he's maneuvering. It's a tactical, very temporary retreat. Imagine if he came back later in the series and was the one who kills trant?

[Jon Targaryen]

Imv, Syrio's fate is summed in three simple sentences.

The First Sword of Braavos does not run.
The First Sword of Braavos did not win.
The First Sword of Braavos did not survive.

And he ain't Jaqen either. AFFC put that theory to rest, unless you want to get into ridiculous territory.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1580872' date='Nov 7 2008, 06.52']And, technically he's not running, he's maneuvering. It's a tactical, very temporary retreat. Imagine if he came back later in the series and was the one who kills trant?[/quote]Technically, he acknowledged it would be running:
[quote]Look with your eyes, he had said. She saw: the knight in his pale armor head to foot, legs, throat, and hands sheathed in metal, eyes hidden behind his high white helm, and in his hand cruel steel. Against that: Syrio, in a leather vest, with a wooden sword in his hand. "Syrio, run," she screamed.
"The first sword of Braavos does not run," he sang as Ser Meryn slashed at him.[/quote]


And that theory about picking up a sword giving him enough time to run away, why? If he has time to do acrobatics and avoid Trant's sword long enough to pick one himself, he has time to run without picking one. If he does pick one, need I remind everyone that when you use a sword to parry it means your opponent is in striking distance, and you need to dodge to get away in the end? So why the intermediary step?

And how was he supposed to escape KL, or the keep, himself? Why didn't he find Arya in KL if he has such fine honed skills or luck to be able to meet her after 3 years or more in a different city? Why wouldn't Trant chase him, why wouldn't guards pile on him when seeing one guy run and a kingsguard after him? Why didn't Arya see or hear any commotion?

Why would it be good to have him resurface anyway? The whole Arya story has been one of accepting death and not relying on anyone. A mentor reappearing would not fit, even if it was to die. Besides, considering what happens after she kills Dareon, I don't think the FM will be made out as some sect from which Arya needs to be rescued with some miracle encounter, or that it's desirable for er to "wake up". People want her to be the good, honourable, tomboy princess with a happy end for the same reason they want Syrio to be alive, because they like the character, so they find excuses for the character to keep appearing like they want.

There is as much need for Syrio to be alive than for Qorin, Beric or Aemon to be. After 3 books and a half and previously planned timeskip, it would not make a lot of sense anyway.

[SomethingFunny]

I don't think this arguing back and forth about who would have owned who makes a lot of sense. GRRM made it clear that in a fight, almost everything can happen.

@Errant Bard
[quote]People want her to be the good, honourable, tomboy princess with a happy end for the same reason they want Syrio to be alive, because they like the character, so they find excuses for the character to keep appearing like they want.[/quote]
That's a bit ... assuming, don't you think?

I want Arya to become a very dark character ("blood child"), wreaking havoc among those who wronged her and killing without remorse. I'd love to see her kill someone good and honorable, someone the readers like.

And I want Syrio to return, I admit, but I would be content I he died protecting Arya. I just disagree on the point that he has outlived his usefulness as a character.

@ SFDanny
[quote]To me the only real reason to think Syrio might be alive is if it makes sense for Martin to use this character again. By that I don't mean use him because so many fans seem to love the guy, but rather use him because his relationship to the story helps develop the story in a needed way. In that regard, I keep thinking of Arya's development in Braavos and ask myself what is going to get her out of Braavos and back to Westeros? An encounter with Syrio might make sense.[/quote]

Thanks, that's exactly what I think.

[mormont]

[quote name='ogbebaba' post='1580395' date='Nov 6 2008, 23.49']You only need arms not armor.[/quote]

You might be right, [b]if[/b] you have a superior reach advantage to substitute for armour - a spear, for example. Syrio did not.

[quote]A water dancer is trained to fight with no armor against opponents with rapiers, foils and epées witch are hands down faster than any other type of sword.[/quote]

Correct, but you neglect to mention that such opponents are unarmoured or lightly-armoured. This is therefore a completely different style of fighting than that required to counter a fully-armoured knight.

[quote]A fully armored knight with a long sword or broad sword would have a very hard time hitting a water dancer.[/quote]

I'm afraid this isn't really true, in my experience (and fairly often when I fight, I'm in the Syrio role - light sword and dagger, no armour vs. opponents with shield, mail, helmet and heavy sword). A better-armoured opponent has a huge advantage in offence, because he doesn't need to worry so much about defence. Trant can close with Syrio with impunity. He will therefore find it very easy to hit him.

[quote]If he had a fencing sword he could have easily killed Trant. And I think even unarmed or with an inferior (to him) weapon that he got from one of the fallen guards he still had a good chance of escaping[/quote]

[quote name='ogbebaba' post='1580745' date='Nov 7 2008, 03.34']Fencing swords are perfect for exploiting armor they bend and slip through cracks in plate or scale and go right through leather and chain mail to pierce the skin and let the blood flow.[/quote]

Again, these claims are not actually true. If light fencing swords were 'perfect' or could 'easily kill' heavily-armoured opponents, you would expect to find that they were common on the battlefield during the period when heavy armour was used. They were not. Big, heavy swords, maces, axes, warhammers and pole-arms were used instead: weapons that could batter and bash an opponent and pierce armour by main force, not weapons that would 'bend and slip through cracks'.

In an actual fight, those joints and cracks are extremely difficult to hit. They're a small, mobile target and many of them are totally inaccessible. They were a major vulnerability only when an opponent was immobilised, or had his mobility severely restricted - a leg trapped, etc.

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1580592' date='Nov 7 2008, 02.22']To be fair it takes what 1/100 of a sec for Syrio to grab a discarded sword, sure he's old but he's still lightening fast, all it takes is him dodging one swing from Meryn and he be able to get a sword.[/quote]

More like two or three seconds. Seconds during which Syrio would be very vulnerable to attack. But it is theoretically possible. The trouble with this idea, though, is that if Syrio acquired a weapon with which he could hurt Trant, then why did Trant come out of the fight alive and apparently unharmed?

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1580602' date='Nov 7 2008, 02.29']The whole armor vs. no armor argument is illogical because:

Syrio already killed 5 armored men. With a stick. 1 more isn't going to be that much more of a hassel to keep away. Even if it's just long enough for him to run away.[/quote]

In that case, Syrio had a weapon which could hurt those opponents by striking in unarmoured spots. Against Trant he had no weapon and no unarmoured spots.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1580976' date='Nov 7 2008, 10.58']That's a bit ... assuming, don't you think?

I want Arya to become a very dark character ("blood child"), wreaking havoc among those who wronged her and killing without remorse. I'd love to see her kill someone good and honorable, someone the readers like.[/quote]I don't think it's assuming, it comes from observation. Look at what you wrote here: When you say you want Arya to become really dark, you describe merely a good guy with some edge, a badass. I have seen rarely someone wishing for a "dark" hero and not defining this darkness as some variation of "killing only bad guys" and implicitely saying it would be a good thing.

[SomethingFunny]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1580990' date='Nov 7 2008, 12.30']I don't think it's assuming, it comes from observation. Look at what you wrote here: When you say you want Arya to become really dark, you describe merely a good guy with some edge, a badass. I have seen rarely someone wishing for a "dark" hero and not defining this darkness as some variation of "killing only bad guys" and implicitely saying it would be a good thing.[/quote]

No, I don't. As I said in that very post, I [i]want[/i] Arya to kill a good guy and I want it to be a bad thing. Justified from her view, of course, but a bad thing. I think Arya is bordering dangerously on the "child soldier syndrome". Syrio gave her the tools to survive, but what really formed came after: loosing almost everyone she loved, escaping near death several times, seeing the work of the likes of Clegane and the Tickler and finally killing herself pretty much without remorse. I mean, her nightly prayer is a Deathlist, for gods sake.

I flinched at the passage where she sells her horse to a woman who cheats her before she goes off to Braavos. The carelessness with which Arya thinks of killing her, then decides against it because there are too many bystanders.

I think she is already well into the "dark side". I want her to become twisted and do nasty things.

[Errant Bard]

I was wrong about you then, apologies. I still think that's how most people feel like inside when arguing about Syrio's survival or Arya's morals.

[ogbebaba]

[quote name='mormont' post='1580979' date='Nov 7 2008, 06.05']I'm afraid this isn't really true, in my experience (and fairly often when I fight, I'm in the Syrio role - light sword and dagger, no armour vs. opponents with shield, mail, helmet and heavy sword). A better-armoured opponent has a huge advantage in offence, because he doesn't need to worry so much about defence. Trant can close with Syrio with impunity. He will therefore find it very easy to hit him.[/quote]


syrio doesn't need to worry about offence he has no weapon in his hand.
all he has to do is run. there is no way a fully armoured trant man can catch him

[mormont]

[quote name='ogbebaba' post='1581138' date='Nov 7 2008, 14.53']syrio doesn't need to worry about offence he has no weapon in his hand.
all he has to do is run. there is no way a fully armoured trant man can catch him[/quote]

That takes us back to the issue of whether Syrio would run at all. It's fairly clear that for a number of reasons, he would not: not least that he was trying to keep Trant busy to give Arya time to get away. If you can read that scene and not realise that Syrio fully intends to sacrifice his life to maximise that time, I feel you haven't read it closely enough.

Syrio is dead.

[ogbebaba]

[quote name='mormont' post='1581187' date='Nov 7 2008, 10.56']That takes us back to the issue of whether Syrio would run at all. It's fairly clear that for a number of reasons, he would not: not least that he was trying to keep Trant busy to give Arya time to get away. If you can read that scene and not realise that Syrio fully intends to sacrifice his life to maximise that time, I feel you haven't read it closely enough.

Syrio is dead.[/quote]


Syrio fully intended to sacrifice his life true... but it is still possible that he was able to escape once arya was gone.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='mormont' post='1581187' date='Nov 7 2008, 10.56']That takes us back to the issue of whether Syrio would run at all. It's fairly clear that for a number of reasons, he would not: not least that he was trying to keep Trant busy to give Arya time to get away. If you can read that scene and not realise that Syrio fully intends to sacrifice his life to maximise that time, I feel you haven't read it closely enough.

Syrio is dead.[/quote]

I agree that Syrio could well be dead, but I don't think the statement the "first sword of braavos does not run" (a quote off the top of my head - forgive me if it is not exact) means that Syrio does not [i]retreat[/i]. Especially it does not mean that Syrio would not run if movement gives him a greater advantage in a fight with Trant. While you are undoubtably correct about the many advantages a heavily armored knight has in a fight, we have the very graphic example of the Red Viper and Ser Gregor to show us that greater freedom movement has its advantages. If Syrio is armed in this fight, it is no means a certainty he loses. None of which means Syrio must win.

I agree Syrio is willing to sacrifice his life to help Arya get away, that does not mean he "intends" to do so.

The ideas that drive me crazy in this debate - and I don't mean to imply you are saying them, Mormont - are as follows:

(1) Trant is heavily armored therefore Trant must win. We know this is not the case from the aforementioned Red Viper and Ser Gregor fight, and we could use Strong Belwas or Bronn for more examples if we need them.

(2) Syrio is bound by an absurd interpretation of his "does not run" statement to mean he will fight every foe he encounters within the Red Keep and either he or they must die before he tries to escape. It makes Syrio into an blustering idiot, not a hero. Running away from a fight because one might die and a strategic retreat are two very different things. Syrio is saying he doesn't do the former, not that he will never do the latter.

So, tell me Syrio is likely dead and I'll say "AMEN," but tell me that based on the evidence Syrio is [i]absolutely[/i] dead and I have to say no.

All I can really say is that if Martin brings him back, it better be for a very good reason.

[mormont]

[quote name='ogbebaba' post='1581343' date='Nov 7 2008, 18.01']Syrio fully intended to sacrifice his life true... but it is still possible that he was able to escape once arya was gone.[/quote]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1581414' date='Nov 7 2008, 18.51']While you are undoubtably correct about the many advantages a heavily armored knight has in a fight, we have the very graphic example of the Red Viper and Ser Gregor to show us that greater freedom movement has its advantages.[/quote]

I wonder, sometimes, if people actually read what I write...

ogbebaba, I have already addressed your point. Syrio intends to sacrifice himself to give Arya the maximum time to escape. He is [i]not[/i] aiming to give her a ten-second head start, or even a five-minute one, and then run himself. That would not be enough. He knows the second he runs, Trant is going to be off on Arya's tail. So he is aiming to give her every second he can buy with his life.

SFDanny, as I have explained the Oberyn/Gregor fight is not an example of any such thing. It's an example of the advantage of [i]reach[/i].

[quote]I agree Syrio is willing to sacrifice his life to help Arya get away, that does not mean he "intends" to do so.[/quote]

Reading the chapter makes it clear that he intends to do so.

[quote]The ideas that drive me crazy in this debate - and I don't mean to imply you are saying them, Mormont - are as follows:

(1) Trant is heavily armored therefore Trant must win. We know this is not the case from the aforementioned Red Viper and Ser Gregor fight, and we could use Strong Belwas or Bronn for more examples if we need them.[/quote]

Again, have you been reading my posts at all, or are you just ignoring them because they don't suit your argument?

In this fight, Trant winning is as close to a certainty as you can get. If you must have a comparison, try Ned against Ser Ilyn on the steps of Baelor's Sept. It's closer than any of the others you've mentioned. None of those demonstrate what you think they demonstrate: largely because what you think they demonstrate is not true.

[quote]All I can really say is that if Martin brings him back, it better be for a very good reason.[/quote]

Another good point: no such reason has been suggested, and none exists.

Put it this way: I am prepared to describe very few things as certain in this series. I'm even prepared to believe that Ned might, just might, be Jon's father. ;) But Syrio? Syrio is dead.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='mormont' post='1581445' date='Nov 7 2008, 12.16']Syrio is dead.[/quote]

I agree. He was a great character, just as the Red Viper was a great character. We enjoyed them, we want to see more, but alas... they are dead. And dead they should remain.

Unless GRRM suddenly develops a passion for super strength, extra-stinky cheese and has Hiro Nakimura (or some other dimensional/time traveler type) jump in and teleport them to another time or another dimension, then they need to stay dead.

Now, if young Arya needs a reason to leave the faceless men and travel back home (and hooking up with Dany won't suffice), then perhaps she could be introduced to some descendant or former student of Syrio... or she could simply hear that her beloved brother is high-commander and decide to go to him... she's young enough and of the right gender to make being fickle, flighty, and cluelessly undisciplined on occasion be completely believable... plus, she is slightly insane! If she goes much more insane, she just might get to be too crazy for the faceless men (and with puberty on it's way, more crazy is a strong possibility)... and they might try to give her a gift.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='mormont' post='1581445' date='Nov 7 2008, 15.16']I wonder, sometimes, if people actually read what I write...

SFDanny, as I have explained the Oberyn/Gregor fight is not an example of any such thing. It's an example of the advantage of [i]reach[/i].[/quote] It is an example of both. The reach of Prince Oberyn's spear is very important, but so too is his mobility.

[quote name='A Storm of Swords']Bronn looked annoyed. "He was never fast. Only freakish big and freakish strong. I'll grant you, he's quicker than you'd expect for a man that size. He has a monstrous long reach, and doesn't seem to feel blows the way a normal man would."

"Does he frighten you so much?"

"If he didn't frighten me, I'd be a bloody fool." Bronn gave a shrug. "Might be I could take him. [b]Dance around him until he was so tired of hacking at me that he couldn't lift his sword[/b]. Get him off his feet somehow. When they're flat on their backs it don't matter how tall they are." ([i]ASoS[/i] 739 US hardback)[/quote] emphasis added
This shows Bronn's emphasis on mobility in fighting a larger foe. It is also his tactic in fighting Ser Vardis Egen earlier in the series. In one case he fights against a foe in which he has the reach advantage (Ser Vardis) and in the other he talks of fighting against a foe (Ser Gregor) who has the reach advantage. In both cases he also emphasizes mobility.

Tyrion tells us that Prince Oberyn has adopted Bronn's tactics, even quoting Bronn in his discription of the fight:
[quote name='A Storm of Swords'][i]Dance around him until he's so tired he can hardly lift an arm, then put him on his back[/i]. The Red Viper seemed to have the same notion as Bronn. But the sellsword had been blunt about the risks of such tactics. [i]I hope to seven hells that you know what you are doing, snake[/i]. ([i]ASOS[/i] 797)[/quote]
Again, mobility is emphasized along with overcoming Ser Gregor's reach advantage.

With Strong Belwas' fight against Oznak zo Pahl we have another example of how mobility can win out over both reach (lance vs. arakh) and armor (Oznak is armored, Belwas has none) advantages.

In looking at the fight between Trant and Syrio the above examples are illustrative of Syrio's advantage in mobility vs. Trant's advantage in armor. It is therefore not clear at all that Martin would agree with you and believe the Trant's armor means Syrio is automatically dead in such a fight. If I read the scene correctly, there is nothing that indicates which of the two men have a reach advantage when armed. As I said before, all this assumes Syrio can acquire one of the many weapons of his fallen opponents in his combat with Trant.

[quote name='mormont' post='1581445' date='Nov 7 2008, 15.16']Reading the chapter makes it clear that he intends to do so.[/quote] I've read the chapter many times, kindly quote to show where it makes clear Syrio intends to die. I repeat, not that he is [i]willing[/i] to die to save Arya, but where it shows he [i]intends[/i] to die.

[quote name='mormont' post='1581445' date='Nov 7 2008, 15.16']Again, have you been reading my posts at all, or are you just ignoring them because they don't suit your argument?

In this fight, Trant winning is as close to a certainty as you can get. If you must have a comparison, try Ned against Ser Ilyn on the steps of Baelor's Sept. It's closer than any of the others you've mentioned. None of those demonstrate what you think they demonstrate: largely because what you think they demonstrate is not true.[/quote] If you read my post, you would know I wasn't responding to all of your posts. I was responding to one aspect of what you wrote - part of which I agree with.

Your likening Syrio's chances to that of Ned facing execution is just plain silly.

[quote name='mormont' post='1581445' date='Nov 7 2008, 15.16']Another good point: no such reason has been suggested, and none exists.

Put it this way: I am prepared to describe very few things as certain in this series. I'm even prepared to believe that Ned might, just might, be Jon's father. ;) But Syrio? Syrio is dead.[/quote]

I have already suggested just such a [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=32010&view=findpost&p=1580831"]reason[/url]. You may not agree with my speculation or think it probable (I have my own doubts, but not enough to rule it out) but there ARE reasons for Martin to use Syrio further in the series.

Sorry, but using yourself as an authority isn't very convincing.

[The_BlauerDragon]

As usual SFD, you raise some very good points, most of which I find no reason to argue with.