Sansa is Super-Awesome-Fantastic!

[Maia]

[quote name='Stratonice' post='1585292' date='Nov 11 2008, 16.27']Despite that, it really fascinates me that people are so willing to forget that it was [i]Ned himself who told Cersei about what he knew and what he intended to do about it[/i] and instead blame it all on Sansa. Sansa [i]couldn't[/i] possibly betray any other information than that Ned was sending her and Arya home because she [i]didn't know[/i] anything else.[/quote]

I don't forget that :). People also claim that if not for Sansa, she and Arya and the guardsmen who were supposed to go with them would have gotten away. However, anybody, who had spies with eyes to see would have noticed that Ned was sending his daughters away. It wasn't done in secrecy, after all. Preparations were all quite overt.

[quote]Ned never bothered to explain how dangerous the situation was to her or even that there was anything dangerous at all about it.[/quote]

Indeed. I could see it before this whirlwind betrothal, since Sansa was still very young and it seemed that they still had many years to prepare her, but once Ned was on the road with his daughters, he should have started educating Sansa ASAP. After all, she was supposed to spend time with the Lannisters, whom _he_ didn't trust. It wasn't task of the septa, since the septa didn't have any political experience, nor Ned's reasons to suspect the Lannisters.

AryaSnow:

Joff wasn't quite up to murdering random people for no reason at the time - he knew that Robert might have disliked that and perhaps done something. He was still under some restraints. Also, he wanted to impress and charm Sansa - until she saw his humiliation at Arya's hands, that is. So, I dare say that he would have only roughed Mycah up a little, so as to feel a big man himself.

As to Ned not allowing Sansa to marry somebody abusive - he didn't call the betrothal off after that horrible incident with Mycah and Lady, did he? What was Sansa supposed to think? Honestly, I wonder what went on in Ned's head there - he should have Arya home ASAP after this, since it became clear that she'd only be a liability and in danger from the Lannisters. And maybe called off the betrothal as well and sent Sansa home, too. It was clear that Joff and his mother would treat her badly and that she wouldn't be able to build a bridge to young "Baratheons" that Ned and Cat have hoped for. At the very least, Ned should have talked to her, given her to understand that there was a way out if the things didn't improve.
Instead, Ned did nothing, so Sansa was left to make the best of her situation. Yes, some willful self-delusion went into it, too, but then, that's a defensive mechanism for a young girl in an arranged marriage. She knew that she was stuck with those people and tried to see the best in them. Sansa being attracted to pageantry, etc. made that easier. Normally, this approach would have been preferable for somebody engaged to a stranger - unfortunately, the circumstances weren't normal.

Re: Arya just ignoring the younger Lannisters - yes, for the most part she just thought derogatory things about them. But Arya wasn't a modern girl, who is free to chose her friends. She went south for the very purpose of making important connections - it was her duty as a Stark daughter. A duty she neglected to the detriment of Ned's situation.

No, I don't think that Sansa was great - she was a callous, naive, self-absorbed, bratty teenager, but she was neither particularly stupid for her age, nor otherwise a spawn of hell. She can yet grow up and be among the cleverest schemers - if LF's and Tyrion's histories are any indication.
It may seem that I bash Arya, but I really don't. I like her, I just think that she has as many flaws as Sansa and that hers also significantly contributed to the KL debacle. That's a point that tends to be overlooked.

[Ko Coopy]

This is my first post on here after reading for a while and I thought I would weigh in with my thought on these two ladies.

For me, disliking Sansa comes down to honor. Ned is one of my favorite characters because of his dedication to doing the right thing, being honest and merciful. Ultimately, those things got him killed. I don't blame Sansa for Ned but I don't like her at all. Joff clearly lied about the events in the confrontation with Arya and Mycah and Sansa could have backed her sister and the truth. She chose to abandon honor, her family, and truth for "love" which was really just her idea of love. LF was sooo right when he observed that she saw the world as a story and she would learn that it wasn't to her sorrow. Sansa at this point is two-dimensional and weak. You can blame her age but her YOUNGER sister already has a more realistic view of the world.

Catelyn I disliked more in hindsight. Her choices turned out bad but largely seemed logical at the time. In re-reads, I wince when she's making decisions now but I don't remember feeling that way the first time through. She is honorable and loyal - even to the Tully's so I don't buy into the argument that women were expected to forsake their maiden names entirely when they married.

That is all from a first-timer.
Thanks!

[aussiecossack]

For me, the debate is not a debate at all - how can you possibly argue in the face of Super-Awesome-Fantasticness? Sansa, by virtue of her Super-Awesome-Fantasticness (no doubt derived from her Fantastically-Super-Awesome mother, Catelyn), dominates. No choice she made was unsound - how could it be, when you're Super-Awesome-Fantastic? No aspect of her point of view is disappointing (um, excuse me - Super-Awesome-Fantasticness???).

Amen.

[Bolton Bastard]

Now the weird thing is. I am the strong anti-Sansa guy. But even I like Cat.
And Ran, I know you know a lot more about asoiaf than I could ever hope of knowing, so can you explain Sansa's developments that I seem to have missed. I don't they'll make me change my opinion of the character but any added info on character development interests me.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Ko Coopy' post='1585472' date='Nov 11 2008, 17.42']She is honorable and loyal - even to the Tully's so I don't buy into the argument that women were expected to forsake their maiden names entirely when they married.[/quote]
Just a note on this: women were expected to represent their own family's interests, yes, otherwise there's really no plus side for the wife's family in the contract. But the ideal was that the two families' interests matched each other, which is largely what was true in her case, so its very realistic for a woman to both feel a lot of pressure to assimilate and also to have to represent her own family. It's a juggling act, and sometimes a woman has to outright choose -- like Selyse Florent Baratheon, whose family chose Highgarden over Stannis IIRC. Well, maybe "choose" isn't the appropriate word so much as it's having the choice made for her and basically deciding how hard she's going to make life for herself considering she really has no power to affect that choice anyway.

We see both Ned and Jon voice distaste over Cersei keeping her own name/making her own sigil equal to her husband's, it's a mark of unseemly Lannister pride (and Genna Lannister is one of the few other women known by her maiden name).

[redevil]

i don't like Sansa. people talk about her as a good character, that she will become great and such. but the problem with that is that she is a very mediocre character [u][b]now[/b][/u]. she might be a really good character in the future, but in the meanwhile she is mediocre character at best.
the great characters in this book take matters into their own hands, and not let things just happened themselves. Tyrion does many incredible things , as do Arya, Jon and many others. it is true that she is beginning to understand how things are ment to be done, but she is not LF yet.
when her growing (as we see it now) will be finished, she will join the list.

[the silent speaker]

Red, the signs are there. The first real sign of Super-Awesome-Fantasticness is probably the Battle of King's Landing, when Cersei bolted from Maegor's Holdfast and Sansa held the ladies together, basically being the queen Cersei had so spectacularly just failed to be. There are others. Right now I personally would place her only as Awesome-Fantastic, but (if she lives) she'll likely get all the way there pretty soon. As a side note, "the great characters in this book take matters into their own hands"? Have you [i]seen [/i]Cersei lately?

Aussie, I think you are placing too much emphasis on Sansa's mother as the source of her being Super-Awesome-Fantastic. Ned was pretty clearly Awesomely-Fantastically-Super, and that has to be accorded at least equal weight.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1585902' date='Nov 11 2008, 23.39']Red, the signs are there. The first real sign of Super-Awesome-Fantasticness...[/quote]
Come now. Do we say Super-Awesome [i]Elasticness[/i]? No sir. It would be patently absurd to to so. We say Super-Awesome-[i]Elasticity[/i]. Therefore, the correct nouning of Sansa's adjective is Super-Awesome-Fantastic[b]ity[/b].

(Aussie Cossack is to be forgiven the same solecism, because he is from Australia, where the english language is but an unsubstantiated rumour.)

[add-on]

[quote name='Ko Coopy' post='1585472' date='Nov 11 2008, 16.42']For me, disliking Sansa comes down to honor.

*snip*

She chose to abandon honor, her family, and truth for "love" which was really just her idea of love.

*snip*[/quote]
Honor? HONOR?!! She was eleven! ELEVEN!!!



SANSA IS SUPER-AWESOME FANTASTIC!






Welcome to the board. :P

[A wilding]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1585121' date='Nov 11 2008, 18.33']It already is a factual argument fact, but the only salient fact that any argument can be based on is that Sansa is Super-Awesome-Fantastic.

...[/quote]
:bow: @ Other-in-law

[Stratonice]

[quote name='Maia' post='1585414' date='Nov 11 2008, 22.54']I don't forget that :). People also claim that if not for Sansa, she and Arya and the guardsmen who were supposed to go with them would have gotten away. However, anybody, who had spies with eyes to see would have noticed that Ned was sending his daughters away. It wasn't done in secrecy, after all. Preparations were all quite overt.


Indeed. I could see it before this whirlwind betrothal, since Sansa was still very young and it seemed that they still had many years to prepare her, but once Ned was on the road with his daughters, he should have started educating Sansa ASAP. After all, she was supposed to spend time with the Lannisters, whom _he_ didn't trust. It wasn't task of the septa, since the septa didn't have any political experience, nor Ned's reasons to suspect the Lannisters.[/quote]

Good to see that I'm not the only one. :)

Oh, and I agree with all the rest too btw.

[AryaSnow]

sorry, a double post :P

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1585097' date='Nov 11 2008, 19.21']The reason Sansa said nothing because she was terrified. That was what made her clam up.[/quote]
No, the reason was that she was [i]in love with Joffrey[/i]. For this reason she lied not only to Robert, but she gone on lying also when there was no danger for her. When she quarreled with Arya (and they were [i]alone[/i]) she told the false too. Yes, before she told the truth to Ned, but then she decided to lie, because she wanted to defend Joffrey, she thought that Joffrey was her prince charming and probably neither wanted to be honest with herself. This is [i]very stupid[/i]. Her lies came from this stupidity, not from wisdom.

Pay attention: I'm not a Sansa-hater. I don't want to decry her. But don't say that she lied because she was clever. [i]Maybe[/i] you can argue that [i]the action itself[/i] was clever, but not [i]her[/i].

[quote]Except that Ned, fully aware of the facts, still intended the betrothal to go ahead. If Sansa was supposed to see that Joff was a psycho, then why wasn’t Ned? Sansa would have known that Ned knew as much about Joff as she did, and was still intending to marry her off to him.
In any case, how confident would any Westeros daughter of Sansa’s age be that her father would call off a betrothal at her request? Getting her betrothed to abuse her in the hope that her father would then call it off feels like an [i]extremely [/i]high risk strategy.[/quote]
Ned knew that Joff was a psycho. If he didn't call off the betrothal immediately, it doesn't mean that he didn't want to do it. Not to revoke [i]instantly[/i] the marrige was one of his few clever choices. He had to investigate, he needed the maximal tranquillity. Calling off the marrige wasn't urgent, there was time for that.
Sansa should know that he wouldn't force her because she should know her father. He was her father, not a stranger. In any case, she neither [i]asked[/i] him! She could ask, right? Was it difficult to ask? She [i]didn't want[/i] to ask it, she [i]wanted[/i] to marry Joffrey. She was still in love with him! It's [i]manifest[/i]. I don't undestrand how someone can deny it...

[b]Sansa's stupidity was being in love with Joffrey, even when he showed his nature. All her AGOT actions were mainly caused by this.[/b]

[quote]People also claim that if not for Sansa, she and Arya and the guardsmen who were supposed to go with them would have gotten away. However, anybody, who had spies with eyes to see would have noticed that Ned was sending his daughters away. It wasn't done in secrecy, after all. Preparations were all quite overt.[/quote]
No, the preparations were secret. It was Sansa's fault. Cersei clearly said it in Tyrion's first ACOK chapter ;)

[quote]Joff wasn't quite up to murdering random people for no reason at the time - he knew that Robert might have disliked that and perhaps done something. He was still under some restraints. Also, he wanted to impress and charm Sansa - until she saw his humiliation at Arya's hands, that is. So, I dare say that he would have only roughed Mycah up a little, so as to feel a big man himself.[/quote]
I don't know, I'm really not persuaded. In that situation there was nobody to control Joffrey and to stop him. And we haven't any evidence that he hadn't murdered people for no reason before becoming king.

[quote]As to Ned not allowing Sansa to marry somebody abusive - he didn't call the betrothal off after that horrible incident with Mycah and Lady, did he? What was Sansa supposed to think? Honestly, I wonder what went on in Ned's head there - he should have Arya home ASAP after this, since it became clear that she'd only be a liability and in danger from the Lannisters. And maybe called off the betrothal as well and sent Sansa home, too. It was clear that Joff and his mother would treat her badly and that she wouldn't be able to build a bridge to young "Baratheons" that Ned and Cat have hoped for. At the very least, Ned should have talked to her, given her to understand that there was a way out if the things didn't improve.[/quote]
See what I answered to A wilding.

[quote]Instead, Ned did nothing, so Sansa was left to make the best of her situation. Yes, some willful self-delusion went into it, too, but then, that's a defensive mechanism for a young girl in an arranged marriage. She knew that she was stuck with those people and tried to see the best in them.[/quote]
No, she was [i]in love with him[/i], so she was blind. And this was very very stupid.
She wanted to marry Joffrey, not "cleverly accepted" it. There is a huge difference.
She neither asked Ned if he would call the betrothal off.
When Ned said that she wouldn't marry Joffrey, she was [i]desperate[/i].
She didn't make the best of a situation in which she felt forced, she [i]fervently desired[/i] that situation!

[quote]But Arya wasn't a modern girl, who is free to chose her friends. She went south for the very purpose of making important connections - it was her duty as a Stark daughter.[/quote]
It's a point of view.
Personally, I like very much her rebellious temperament and I perfectly understand her.
Obvious, in many situations it may be detrimental. But, on the other hand, rebellious people give their contribution to the cultural evolution and... they are also very attractive for me :)

[quote]A duty she neglected to the detriment of Ned's situation.[/quote]
No, I really don't think it had a relevant influence.

[quote]No, I don't think that Sansa was great - she was a callous, naive, self-absorbed, bratty teenager, but she was neither particularly stupid for her age, nor otherwise a spawn of hell. She can yet grow up and be among the cleverest schemers - if LF's and Tyrion's histories are any indication.[/quote]
I don't think she's particulary stupid. Her age makes her blind love for Joffrey more understandable. But let's admit that in AGOT she was really in love with him, don't say she was droven by wisdom.
I'm neither sure she's particulary intelligent, so I can't say if she has the talent to become among the cleverset schermers. We'll see.
In any case, when ASOIAF ends she will be 15. A genial throne-player of her age would be very unrealistic... wouldn't it?

[quote]It may seem that I bash Arya, but I really don't. I like her, I just think that she has as many flaws as Sansa and that hers also significantly contributed to the KL debacle. That's a point that tends to be overlooked.[/quote]
Which of the two has more flaws? I'm not interested in this.
I have more sympathy for Arya, it's only a personal feeling of mine. It doesn't mean she's [i]better[/i]. "Better" and "worse" are very relative notions.
Anyway, Arya is a more "special" person, in her flaws and in her good traits, Sansa is a more "ordinary" girl. That's all :)

I think neither of them particulary contributed to Ned's death and downfall.
Sansa indirectly caused Arya's escape and her own capture. Arya [i]maybe[/i] indirectly caused Mycah's death.
I blame more Sansa because 1)she was older 2)Arys'a action was more instinctive. She hadn't much time to think well how to react in the situation which [i]suddenly occurred[/i]. Instead Sansa had veeery much time to reflect about Joffrey and to understand that he was a shit. But I know she's an 11 years old girl and I can understand :)

[A wilding]

Since you insist on being serious ...


[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1586649' date='Nov 12 2008, 18.34']No, the reason was that she was [i]in love with Joffrey[/i]. For this reason she lied not only to Robert, but she gone on lying also when there was no danger for her. When she quarreled with Arya (and they were [i]alone[/i]) she told the false too. Yes, before she told the truth to Ned, but then she decided to lie, because she wanted to defend Joffrey, she thought that Joffrey was her prince charming and probably neither wanted to be honest with herself. This is [i]very stupid[/i]. Her lies came from this stupidity, not from wisdom.[/quote]
I think it would be really difficult for you to find any evidence in the text that at the time of the trial Sansa was feeling whatever an 11 year's old equivalent of in love is for Joffrey. Why the fear? Why the refusal to speak? Why didn't she just stand up and support Joffrey's version of events?

As for the argument with Arya much later - how many children have never flung hurtful lies at their siblings in a quarrel?

And yes, given that Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey, refusing to testify against him probably was the smartest move, even if Sansa certainly chose it out of instinct rather than rational thought. Note that it made no difference to events - everyone present knew Joffrey had lied.

I would certainly agree that Sansa was not displaying any signs of genius, just acting as one might expect someone her age to behave.


[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1586649' date='Nov 12 2008, 18.34']Ned knew that Joff was a psycho. If he didn't call off the betrothal immediately, it doesn't mean that he didn't want to do it. Not to revoke [i]instantly[/i] the marrige was one of his few clever choices. He had to investigate, he needed the maximal tranquillity. Calling off the marrige wasn't urgent, there was time for that.
Sansa should know that he wouldn't force her because she should know her father. He was her father, not a stranger. In any case, she neither [i]asked[/i] him! She could ask, right? Was it difficult to ask? She [i]didn't want[/i] to ask it, she [i]wanted[/i] to marry Joffrey. She was still in love with him! It's [i]manifest[/i]. I don't undestrand how someone can deny it...[/quote]
So Ned knew that he had betrothed his daughter to a psycho, but not only did not call the marriage off, but did not drop the slightest hint to Sansa that he had any intention of ever doing so, or even caution her against Joffrey in any way. (Until, that is, the moment that he abruptly announced that the marriage was off without giving the slightest explanation.) And yet it was Sansa's obligation to raise the issue with Ned anyway, despite being brought up to be dutiful and marry whomever was chosen for her?

(Incidentally, I would argue that it was not that obvious to either Ned or Sansa that Joffrey was beyond hope, but that is perhaps beside the point.)

I agree that Sansa was wilfully deluding herself about Joffrey. Maia has already pointed out the mitigating factor for this:

[quote]... Instead, Ned did nothing, so Sansa was left to make the best of her situation. Yes, some willful self-delusion went into it, too, but then, that's a defensive mechanism for a young girl in an arranged marriage ...[/quote]

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1586903' date='Nov 12 2008, 21.52']I think it would be really difficult for you to find any evidence in the text that at the time of the trial Sansa was feeling whatever an 11 year's old equivalent of in love is for Joffrey.[/quote]
In her previous PoV she was in love with him, even after his behaviour to Mycah. She went on acting as a girl in love with her "dear prince".
In the next PoV she also was in love with him. And so she was in all the PdV until Ned’s beheading.
It's obvious that we can't read about her thoughts in Ned's PoV (during the process). It wasn't her PoV :P But I think is really [i]logical[/i] to assume this, unless we haven't the evidence of the contrary.
If you say that during the process Sansa wasn't in love with Joffrey only because we haven't evidences of that [i]in the chapter[/i], you can also say that Jon stopped to like Arya in the Tyrion's chapter at the Wall only because his attachment to his sister isn't written [i]there[/i]. Not very logical...

[quote]Why the fear? Why the refusal to speak? Why didn't she just stand up and support Joffrey's version of events?[/quote]
Arya was her sister and also her father wanted her to tell the truth. She was hesistant to "betray" them so audaciously, it's normal. So she simply didn't speak.

[quote]As for the argument with Arya much later - how many children have never flung hurtful lies at their siblings in a quarrel?[/quote]
That lie was particulary scummy, considering it was related to a completely innocent dead boy. She hasn't accused only Arya, [i]but also Mycah[/i]. She said "he attacked my beloved prince with you", suggesting that it was his fault if he died. She really should avoid that... :rolleyes:

Anyway... do you deny that she was still in love with Joffrey? It seems to me absurd. In her PdVs (in [i]all[/i] her PoVs before Ned's beheading) we see lots of clear evidences of her love. She wasn't trying to "accept an inevitable and bitter destiny", [i]she loved him and she strongly desired to marry him[/i]. She was always thinking about her love for Joffrey. And when she discovered that Ned didn't want to marry them anymore, she was [i]desperate[/i].
A very obedient daughter decided to rebel her first time. When? When her father said that he wouldn't let her marry her “dear prince”. It's obvious that she [i]loved[/i] him (the way an 11 girl can love...), that it wasn't a "wise resignation"!

[quote]And yes, given that Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey, refusing to testify against him probably was the smartest move, even if Sansa certainly chose it out of instinct rather than rational thought. Note that it made no difference to events - everyone present knew Joffrey had lied.[/quote]
This instinct was attachment to Joffrey. And [i]this[/i] was [i]stupid[/i].
To judge a [i]person[/i] you can't see only the [i]actions[/i], the [i]motivation[/i] is important.

[quote]I would certainly agree that Sansa was not displaying any signs of genius, just acting as one might expect someone her age to behave.[/quote]
Maybe. Surely it’s understandable, if we see her age. What I’m arguing is: her lies in AGOT weren’t droven by cleverness. She was in love with Joffrey and this was stupid, even if I don’t blame too much an 11 years girl. Stop.

[quote](Until, that is, the moment that he abruptly announced that the marriage was off without giving the slightest explanation.)[/quote]
I agree that he’d have better to explain.
But why was she so desperate? Even if she didn’t know that there was such a big conflict with Lannisters, she should have understood that Joffrey wasn’t a… “particulary good person” :P She should have felt relieved, or at least she shouldn’t have felt so sorry for this.
She felt so sorry because she was still thinking that he was her prince charming and she was in love with him. This was stupid.

[quote]And yet it was Sansa's obligation to raise the issue with Ned anyway, despite being brought up to be dutiful and marry whomever was chosen for her? .[/quote]
Had she understood that Joffrey was… “not such a good person”?
If you say yes (but I say no, I’ve already told you why many times…), it should be [i]natural[/i] to ask! I’m not talking about [i]fighting[/i] with Ned but… hell… all least ask! It really doesn’t cost anything!
If you say no (and I agree), she was stupid. I don’t say that she’s a stupid person [i]on the whole[/i], but in that case she’s really been!

[quote](Incidentally, I would argue that it was not that obvious to either Ned or Sansa that Joffrey was beyond hope, but that is perhaps beside the point.)[/quote]
Beyond hope maybe not, it wasn’t that evident yet. But it was really obvious that he was [i]a bad person[/i]. Why was she so desperate when she discovered she wouldn’t have marry him? Stupidity…

[quote]I agree that Sansa was wilfully deluding herself about Joffrey. Maia has already pointed out the mitigating factor for this:[/quote]Yes, she wilfully deluded herself. But not because she was afraid or oppressed by her female position. She deluded herself because she didn’t want to admit that Joffrey wasn’t her ideal prince charming. She wanted to go on loving him and so she done. I label this as stupidity.
Clear? ;)

[redevil]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1585902' date='Nov 12 2008, 06.39']Red, the signs are there. The first real sign of Super-Awesome-Fantasticness is probably the Battle of King's Landing, when Cersei bolted from Maegor's Holdfast and Sansa held the ladies together, basically being the queen Cersei had so spectacularly just failed to be. There are others. Right now I personally would place her only as Awesome-Fantastic, but (if she lives) she'll likely get all the way there pretty soon. As a side note, "the great characters in this book take matters into their own hands"? Have you [i]seen [/i]Cersei lately?

Aussie, I think you are placing too much emphasis on Sansa's mother as the source of her being Super-Awesome-Fantastic. Ned was pretty clearly Awesomely-Fantastically-Super, and that has to be accorded at least equal weight.[/quote]

i can see the error in my ways, how could i have been so blind? it all makes sense now! Sansa clearly is the prince that was promised! she is too Super-Awesome-Fantastic to be a mere POV, she will show you all.
and speaker, i did not mean to say that every character that takes action is a good one, but that the good ones do take action.

[Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rahl]

*sigh* That was one pleasurable read. Thank you my friends. hehe I'm glad to see everyone is on the same page. The haters were there, but their reasons were lame... Like for seriously! Undeveloped character?! Friends, we need to stop sniffing the glue about an hour before GRRM readings kk? That way your head is clear and un-muddled for the possible Sansa chapters.

Sansa was the most irritating character for me to read in AGoT, partially because Arya was the most enjoyable and I felt, as a Arya devotee, that Sansa was a real bitch!... but to say her character at the end of these four books is undeveloped is ridiculous... yes it is a more subtle development, but to me that just fits her character... everything in time... we have moved passed "complete idiocy" to "innocent naivety" and now we are in "subtle cynicism" and I am loving every minute of it. She has shown great character development... and to people who say otherwise I would say - Tyrion has been plotting and scheming since AGoT, and Arya has been going about stabbing people also since AGoT. I love both these characters, but in a way their way of thinking remains the same although other things change.... but for Sansa her whole way of thinking is changing, she is changing dramatically and I enjoys it.

All that was just babbling though the true argument, that has been resounding throughout this thread, was, is and always will be that Sansa is SUPER-AWESOME-FANTASTIC . Fact not fiction. For real real. Not for play play.

PS: Sarah Palin told me God supports me on this one, if nothing else.

[holyte]

I hated her in the beginning, true. I think most people did. But then the hate started to boil over after seeing how terrible her ordeal had become, how she had to live in constant fear under the vigilance of the people who killed her father, the people she placed her trust in. No 11 year old deserves this, but all things considered, i think she handled it pretty well.

I hated her, then pitied her, then cheered for her, now i like and admire her. She's really changed. Compare the Sansa at the end of AFFC to the one in AGOT - she has really grow up and become more responsible, no longer the naive, spoilt, whiny, selfish, love-blinded Sansa of old. For those of you who say Sansa has not undergone any character development, i suggest you get over your biased subjective hate for her and [b]open your eyes[/b]. She has changed so much. In fact, the only character imo to have displayed more character development is Jaime.

Seriously, if future Sansa could go back in time to meet the old Sansa, she'd bitch-slap that bitch so hard she wouldn't know what hit her. And then she'll hug her. And tell her chin-up girl, you'll get through this and one day you'll shine with overflowing awesomeness ;) [b]CUS SHE WILL[/b].

Sansa is Super-Awesome-Fantastic. Amen.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rah' post='1587133' date='Nov 13 2008, 01.10']we have moved passed "complete idiocy" to "innocent naivety" and now we are in "subtle cynicism" and I am loving every minute of it.[/quote]
Sublte cynicism? Very very exaggerated. She [i]might[/i] take this path, but up to now... You are running too fast :P Now she's [i]confused[/i], we don't know how she will become. And she's still pretty naive.
I'm not asserting this to criticise Sansa. I really don't think that a good character necessarily has to change extremely. On the contrary: [i]too radical[/i] changes make a character unrealistic. If she had become like Petyr Baelish in two years, at 13... she would have been a very bad character!

[quote]Arya has been going about stabbing people also since AGoT.[/quote]
Arya's change is [i]evident[/i].
And no, in the beginning of the series she wasn't stabbing people.
You really can't say she's an immobile character.

Tyrion yes, I can say his character hasn't changed. But it doesn't necessarily make him a worse character.

[quote]All that was just babbling though the true argument, that has been resounding throughout this thread, was, is and always will be that Sansa is SUPER-AWESOME-FANTASTIC . Fact not fiction[/quote]
If Sansa is super-awesome-fantastic or not it's not a matter of facts. It's only your personal preference :rolleyes:
Personally, I don't see anything particulary exeptional in her character.

[Stratonice]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1586649' date='Nov 12 2008, 19.34']No, the reason was that she was [i]in love with Joffrey[/i]. For this reason she lied not only to Robert, but she gone on lying also when there was no danger for her. When she quarreled with Arya (and they were [i]alone[/i]) she told the false too. Yes, before she told the truth to Ned, but then she decided to lie, because she wanted to defend Joffrey, she thought that Joffrey was her prince charming and probably neither wanted to be honest with herself. This is [i]very stupid[/i]. Her lies came from this stupidity, not from wisdom.[/quote]

I would argue that she was never really in love with Joffrey, the person. Sansa is really a very idealistic and romantic spirit and she simply convinced herself that she felt what the songs and stories had taught her a young girl betrothed to a royal prince should feel. It is the ideal fairy tale prince from the songs she really has a crush on. She just attach Joff's face to the fantasy because he is the one she's been told she's going to marry. (Had her betrothed been an even remotely decent person, this would not necessarily have been a bad way for her to deal with an arranged marriage.)

It's not so much that Ned is sending her away from Joffrey, she later objects to. It's the fact that he completely destroys the fantasy and the self image that came with it. And he does so without giving her any explanation for it.

About her testimony, btw, I'm really having a hard time understanding how anyone can expect an 11 year old girl in feudal society to call the crown prince a liar in front of the full court. Most adults wouldn't have. Especially when we know for a fact that Robert, the King, already knew that was the case and didn't particularly care about it. At least not enough to act accordingly. A lot of people deserve a lot of blame for what happened, but Sansa saying she doesn't remember what happened when faced with that situation is very far down that list. Robert takes most of the blame from me in this case, followed by Cersei and Joffrey.