Adapting book POV structure to HBO TV series; Spoilers

[Jon Targaryen]

So I've wondered this for awhile now. We know the series is divided into chapters based on selected POVs within each book. Each chapter is seen from the viewpoint of one character.

Will this structure flow seamlessly in a TV series? Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't see any real barriers. But I thought it might be something to consider.

[Dornish]

The only obstacle I see is the chapter breaks aren't necessarily good scene breaks for TV. The biggest early one is going from Sansa, Joff and Arya at the Trident to Ned's men finding Arya. It's too jarring a transition for TV and would have to be broken up by another scene. Possibly a good time for the Crow Dream.

[EHK for Darwin]

If they decide to go the first Dune movie route, they won't be forgiven.

[Cimon]

[quote name='EHK for Obama' post='1587604' date='Nov 13 2008, 04.31']If they decide to go the first Dune movie route, they won't be forgiven.[/quote]

Never saw the entire thing, couldn't bear it after 20 minutes, which route is that?

[freakinmayhew]

[quote name='Dornish' post='1587584' date='Nov 13 2008, 04.54']The only obstacle I see is the chapter breaks aren't necessarily good scene breaks for TV. The biggest early one is going from Sansa, Joff and Arya at the Trident to Ned's men finding Arya. It's too jarring a transition for TV and would have to be broken up by another scene. Possibly a good time for the Crow Dream.[/quote]


Good directors know how to pull off a good transition. I wouldn't worry.

[Maester Yobjascz]

We spent a [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=15123&view=findpost&p=579983"]*lot* of time[/url] trying to figure out how to make the adaptation work. I think I might still have my spreadsheets lying around somewhere (I used page counts to try and determine how many chapters you could fit into an episode, and then broke down the books into seasons). There are a lot of issues involved in doing this sort of adaptation, and I'm really looking forward to how they resolve them.

Grrrr... unfortunately, we're getting ready for trial and I have little time to celebrate. In what time I have... :cheers:

[Brude]

I have always thought GRRM had in mind a structure adaptable for long-form TV from the beginning, when he first wrote Game of Thrones. Maybe it was conscious, maybe not and simply came from his years working as a TV writer, but I think that the books lend themselves well for adaptation as they are written. The POV structure is a benefit and not a hinderance and closely resembles how many films and TV shows are structured, especially those with large, ensamble casts (think Hill Street Blues, CSI or a Robert Altman film). We jump from scene to scene, but each one is usually written more-or-less from the point of view of one or two major characters.

[Robb19]

I vote Lost style with each episode geared around a specific character.

When you think about it, it's not ripping off Lost either, since the books have been around longer.

[lokisnow]

[quote name='Dornish' post='1587584' date='Nov 13 2008, 00.54']The only obstacle I see is the chapter breaks aren't necessarily good scene breaks for TV. The biggest early one is going from Sansa, Joff and Arya at the Trident to Ned's men finding Arya. It's too jarring a transition for TV and would have to be broken up by another scene. Possibly a good time for the Crow Dream.[/quote]
actually that's a perfect scene break for commercial TV, trident, commercial, arya caught.

I have the book outlined like this in excel:

Prologue, Dany I
Bran 1
Cat 1
Ned 1
Jon 1
Cat 2
Arya 1
Bran 2, Dany 2
tyrion 1
Jon 2
Cat 3, ned 2, Tyrion 2
Sansa 1
Bran 3, Ned 3, Jon 3
Cat 4, Tyrion 3
Ned 4
Bran 4, Dany 3, Jon 4, Arya 2
Ned 5
Cat 5, Ned 6
Sansa 2
Ned 7, Tyrion 4
Cat 6, Arya 3
Ned 8
Bran 5, Ned 9
Tyrion 5
Cat 7, Ned 10
Jon 5, Tyrion 6
Ned 11
Dany 4, Jon 6, Sansa 3
Ned 12
Dany 5, Ned 13
Ned 14, Jon 7
Arya 4
Sansa 4
Bran 6, Dany 6, Jon 8
Cat 8
Tyrion 7, Sansa 5
Ned 15
Cat 9, Dany 7
Tyrion 8
Cat 10
Bran 7, Dany 8, Arya 5
Sansa 6
Cat 11, Dany 9, Jon 9, Tyrion 9
Dany 9

and I think Brud is right the book is going to break up nicely into intercutable episodes for HBO, the structure is very much like espisodic TV. The first thrust of the story plays out nice and linear (all the povs but dany in the same place) then slowly introduces more complexity as the threads separate into three parties, then into four parties, but never more complicated than this (unlike the next books) because when Tyrion leaves the wall he later joins up Bran's or Cat's threads, it will be quite doable to follow four plot threads at a time. I would push Dany 1 to episode two and finish that episode off with either the death of Lady or Dany 2 (the wedding, iirc, though that may be Dany 3). Dany also becomes very important in execs eyes because an execution is not the most exciting ending, but the Khal waging war (and being critically injured) will be a high action relief to cut to so that the audience stays interested in the story despite the talking heads and scheming politicos. especially if the Khal's war is in the same episode as Eddard's death, then you can have the final episode of the season gearing up for war (and/or the first battle) counterpointed by Dany's aftermath of war experiences, ending the season in her rebirth with dragons.

[Maester Yobjascz]

This was my old chapter break-down for AGoT:

Okay... I apologize in advance for the lousy formatting... it didn't like copying and pasting from Excel, and I don't have the time to do it more correctly.

Here's my current breakdown of the episodes, by chapter. The episode number is at the left, followed by the total page count of the episode. I'm assuming that 1pg=1minute of time, and while I expect 60-minute episodes, the total page count only allows for 50-minute averages. So I'm aiming for 50-minute episodes, and we'll either end a few minutes early, or expand the dialogue to match. After the chapter title is the page count for that particular chapter. This is followed by a couple word summary of the chapter, and any notes. In the notes, you might see a "+1" notation... this is to let you know that I've added or subtracted a few pages in the total for this chapter, to account for something noted... In the Prologue, I've added a page to account for an expanded sequence at Castle Black.

All page counts are courtesy of Tower of the Hand, the US Paperback edition.

I've tried to keep some sort of thematic linkage within episodes, or at least arrange them so that they flow well. Please let me know what you think. Enjoy! :cool:


Episode 1
10 Prologue 10 Others +1 of Castle Black
16 Bran I 6 Beheading, Direwolves
20 Catelyn I 4 Starks, History, Arryn, Robert
27 Eddard I 7 Robert, Crypts
34 Jon I 7 Feast, Benjen, Tyrion
41 Catelyn II 7 Sex, Lysa, Decisions
47 Arya I 6 Needlework, Jon, Words
54 Bran II 7 Climbing, Thrown

Episode 2
4 Tyrion I 4 Reading, Family
8 Jon II 4 Catelyn, Goodbyes
15 Eddard II 7 Riding, Robert, Dany
24 Dany I 9 History, Drogo, Jorah
31 Tyrion II 7 Travel, Jon, Night's Watch
39 Dany II 8 Wedding, Sex
50 Jon III 11 Training, Noye, Thorne

Episode 3
11 Sansa I 11 Joffrey, Arya, Attack
16 Eddard III 5 Arya, Lannisters, Lady
26 Eddard IV 10 Arrival, Brothel, Catelyn, Petyr
34 Catelyn III 8 Assassination, Wolves
43 Catelyn IV 9 Sailing, Petyr, Knife
46 Bran III 3 Dream, 3-eyed Crow

Episode 4
7 Eddard V 7 Investigations
15 Arya II 8 Needlework, Needle, Syrio
25 Eddard VI 10 Investigations, Gendry
34 Sansa II 9 Tournament
51 Eddard VII 17 Tournament, Ser Hugh

Episode 5
9 Dany III 9 Dothraki Sea, Viserys, Pregnant
18 Tyrion III 9 Dinner, Jeor, Jon
26 Jon IV 8 Training, Tarly
35 Bran IV 9 Frustration, Tyrion, Riding
41 Eddard VIII 6 Argument, Resign, Brothel
48 Catelyn V 7 Returning, Tyrion

Episode 6
9 Arya III 9 Cats, Treachery
19 Dany IV 10 Vaes Dothrak arrival, Viserys, Jorah
28 Tyrion IV 9 High Road, Bronn
31 Eddard IX 3 Barra, Jaime, Conflict
46 Catelyn VI 15 Vale, Brynden, Eyrie
51 Eddard X 5 Recovery, Handship, the Hunt

Episode 7
8 Bran V 8 Riding, Wildlings, Osha
14 Jon V 6 Promotion, Aemon/Sam
26 Tyrion V 12 Sky Cells, Admissions of Guilt
36 Catelyn VII 10 Trial by Combat
45 Dany V 9 Stallion Heart, Viserys Crown
51 Jon VI 6 Vows, Ghost, Hand

Episode 8
7 Eddard XI 7 Gregor, Beric
13 Sansa III 6 Beric, Old drunk King
20 Eddard XII 7 Pycelle, Cersei, Godswood
30 Eddard XIII 10 Robert, Baelish, Plotting
35 Eddard XIV 5 Decision, Betrayal, Baelish
44 Arya IV 9 Syrio, Trant, Escape
52 Sansa IV 8 Cersei, Poole, Watching

Episode 9
9 Dany VI 9 Assassination, Drogo, Westeros
16 Tyrion VI 7 Tysha, Clansmen
27 Bran VI 11 Banners Called, Robb
35 Tyrion VII 8 Unite with Tywin, War Plans
43 Catelyn VIII 8 Robb, War plans -1 Omit Split Forces Plans
50 Sansa V 7 Beg for Eddard

Episode 10
12 Jon VII 12 Wights, Ghost, Fire
19 Eddard XV 7 Varys, Honor, ToJ
31 Jon VII 12 Wights, Ghost, Fire
39 Dany VII 8 Mirri, Drogo injured, healing
49 Arya V 10 Flea Bottom, Beheading, Yoren

Episode 11
10 Jon VIII 10 Aemon, Pain, Choice
25 Tyrion VIII 15 Green Fork, Bolton
36 Catelyn IX 11 Freys, Negotiations
42 Catelyn X 6 Whispering Wood, Jaime
52 Jon IX 10 Oaths broken, oaths kept

Episode 12
9 Bran VII 9 Dreams, Crypt, Eddard
20 Dany VIII 11 Drogo worse, blood magic
27 Sansa VI 7 Crying, Joffrey, Heads, Sandor
34 Tyrion IX 7 Tywin, Hand
42 Dany IX 8 Results, Rhaego, Drogo, Death
52 Catelyn XI 10 Riverrun, King in the North
60 Dany X 8 Pyre, Blood magic, Dragons
________

I've done ACoK also... but that one got a lot more convoluted because there was a significant jump in the number of POVs. You also have sections where there are a number of short jumps between a few characters (there are something like 15 Tyrion chapters in ACoK) which causes problems.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Shojum' post='1587759' date='Nov 13 2008, 12.49']Never saw the entire thing, couldn't bear it after 20 minutes, which route is that?[/quote]

Having the actual thoughts of the characters said out loud and heard by the audience. Dune, to my knowledge, is the only movie that's done that for an entire film. And while perhaps an accurate portrayal of the book (the book had constant internal thought monologues), it was awful on screen.

[The Wolf Maid]

[quote name='EHK for Obama' post='1589768' date='Nov 15 2008, 11.10']Having the actual thoughts of the characters said out loud and heard by the audience. Dune, to my knowledge, is the only movie that's done that for an entire film. And while perhaps an accurate portrayal of the book (the book had constant internal thought monologues), it was awful on screen.[/quote]
Oh, God. I hope they don't do this ever to ASoIaF. That would be unbearable.

[Le_Saboteur]

[quote name='Maester Yobjascz' post='1589485' date='Nov 15 2008, 10.27']This was my old chapter break-down for AGoT...[/quote]

Great work, I love your ideas. I can't see anything that I disagree with.

[AverageGuy]

[quote name='Maester Yobjascz' post='1589485' date='Nov 14 2008, 16.27']Episode 1
10 Prologue 10 Others +1 of Castle Black
16 Bran I 6 Beheading, Direwolves
20 Catelyn I 4 Starks, History, Arryn, Robert
27 Eddard I 7 Robert, Crypts
34 Jon I 7 Feast, Benjen, Tyrion
41 Catelyn II 7 Sex, Lysa, Decisions
47 Arya I 6 Needlework, Jon, Words
54 Bran II 7 Climbing, Thrown[/quote]

I like this, and it was pretty similar to what I was thinking. The only thing I might do differently is cut a bunch of Arya I (down to her packing and Jon giving her Needle while he says goodbye) and put it right at the beginning of Episode 2. You lose the practice yard and some Sansa/Arya characterization, but I think that's the least important stuff if you needed more time for one of the other scenes. And I'd move Jon's training (Jon III) to Episode 3 or 4 and leave Episode 2 for the last day at Winterfell, traveloguing, and Dany. Jon turns around after he finds out Bran's going to live, anyway. I'd also move Eddard IV after Catelyn III and IV-- no use Eddard meeting Catelyn in the brothel before Cat's even left Winterfell :) But this breakdown is really something. Good job. Are there only 12 episodes in a season? For some reason I thought there were 13. I keep on wanting to push a couple things back!

The transitions are definitely going to be interesting; specifically, I wonder how they'll give a sense of time passing between Catelyn I and Eddard I. Talking by the tree in the evening/Robert arriving around midday? What tricks do they use? If it weren't on HBO, it would be time for a commercial break.

[lokisnow]

Benioff and Weiss would not use VO to give us the characters thoughts. He's a fantastic adapter. they were working on Ender's Game before this and turned in great work.

a first season is generally shorter, I would imagine a 10 episode order (plus pilot equals eleven total) for the show if picked up. maybe only a 9 episode order.

But that is an utterly amazing episode breakdown. brilliant. makes me want to go reread the books and anxious to see the show as I think about individual episodes covering that drama. :)

[psim]

Not necessarily. True Blood, one of HBO's most recent new series (and also a book adaptation) got a first season with 12 episodes.

The trick with breaking down the book into episodes is also to find those scenes that might have the biggest impact as a cliffhanger ending. There are a lot of candidates in Martin's chapters. On my last reread I thought that Bran being thrown from the window and Ned deciding that he has to go to King's Landing to find Jon's murderer would probably be great for the first episode, but I didn't go through the trouble of splitting the entire book into twelve parts.

It might also be kind of difficult to implement Dany's storyline. There is never really much of a crossover during AGoT with what's going on in Westeros, apart from the throwaway comment, so that would have to be done carefully...

[Jon Targaryen]

I like Maester Yobjascz's breakdown but I think my concern is how ASOIAF would translate into a HBO/serial style medium with regard to the present structure in the novel.

For instance, in a serial show like the Sopranos each episode tended to focus on one character's storyline with one or two other minor storylines. Often the main one was Tony, sometimes others. This could translate to Ned in HBO AGOT, but there are so many other competing storylines that appear to each need space within each episode. It seems like it would be hard to build a strong connection and a coherent episode each time with only one "chapter" for half a dozen characters in each episode.

This is not really a problem in the novel because we just keep reading and it all flows together. The novel has one real beginning and one real ending. A twelve episode season has a dozen such beginnings and endings. Each episode needs to tell an individual story, at least imo.

So, now that I understand what I was getting at when I started the thread, perhaps it might help to look at what the character arcs are and how that might be accomplished without splicing in each character with 8.5 minutes of time in each episode. In other words, look at the arcs and see if they can be fleshed out fully in one or two episodes, while still perhaps having the characters in every episode. Kinda like Lost, without the flashbacks and not as explicit though.

[Maester Yobjascz]

You can't really maintain a structure where each episode focuses on one character. It might be theoretically possible with AGoT, but it will *not* work in ACoK. I have to track down my notes, but there are more characters and they bounce around between a number of contemporaneous storylines.

There's obviously a temptation to try and mirror a structure from previous shows. The problem is that the structure has to match the storyline. The Sopranos was about a family, so it's possible to focus on one character for an episode. ASOIAF is different. It's complicated, with dozens of different stories woven together to tell the history of Westeros... and I that's actually the strength of the series. If you use a structure that doesn't complement that strength, but instead tries to cram it into another form, it's going to lose something.

[Matarreyes]

Not sure if anyone will like this, but have you given thought to the fact than many scenes will probably be left out? No-one will do a page-by-page adaptation like some are suggesting. No matter how "prepared for TV" GRRM wrote, and how good are the adapters. Knowing what to shorten and what to show "in passage" are marks of a good scriptwriter as well. I think that stuff like siblings interaction, Arya lessons, Bran´s despair, Tyrion´s journey to the Vale (excepting the trial) and such will be shown while some other characters walk by discusing more "important" things, thus combining scenes. This is specially relevant in the begining, when all characters are in the same place and many of them are children.

[psim]

I partially agree with Jon Targaryen. There needs to be some episodic element to the narrative structure, so that casual viewers who don't catch every single episode won't feel utterly lost (they still might ^^)... but it doesn't have to be necessarily a single character's story, it just has to be some element of the story that can be contained within one episode. And it might also be difficult to fit as many as five or six plot strands that take place in different regions of the world into one episode. Many series follow some kind of A-story, B-story (+ a possible C-Story) pattern for that particular reason. Not that GoT has to be totally formulaic or anything, but it can get confusing if the story jumps all over the place all the time.

One example for a subplot that could be contained in one episode is tyrion's encounter with Catelyn and their trip to the Eyrie. The episode might start with them meeting at the tavern (that might also make a good cliffhanger for the previous episode), then they go to the Eyrie, Tyrion's kept in the Sky Cells before he gets to his Trial. Bronn kills his enemy and the episode ends with the two of them alone on the road, surrounded by bandits.
Of course it would be possible to break this down differently, but as an example this would make a good story for one episode, where the viewers want to see what's going to happen next, but still feel that stuff has actually happenede during the episode.