AO, M, PG or R

[Kingthlayer!]

[quote]The more we talk about what we think might get cut, the more likely some snippets here and there will be cut, and I know I don't want that, I think the violence should be portrayed exactly as it is in the books, if someone gets an axe in the face, I want to see an axe in the face, I think the sex scenes should also be treated that way, except genitalia of course will not be shown, and the sex scenes were never really too erotic in the book IMO, they were always brief and to the point, described enough to give us an image and then it moves on, sexual yet not something I would say was very arousing. I cannot think of anything off hand in ASoIaF that would be on a different level to what we saw in Rome, IMO Rome is ASoIaF.[/quote]

There was genetalia in ROME, wasn't there? Some slave guy's dong was fully exposed, and wrapped up in a bow tie. Scared the heck outta me.

[siyrean]

yeah but wether or not its in a sexual situation counts when it comes to ratings. anyways bravheart/300 ect. were R for violence, i really don't see how this would be any worse then those, unless there were some extenses scenes of graphic torture i somehow missed while reading the books. as for sex, well do they really need to get more graphic than say True Blood? i'd say that's pretty darn graphic without getting to nc-17 lvls.

[The Anti-Targ]

Our Equivalent of NC-17 is R18. We get plenty of R18 movies without much sex in them at all. They have to have 3 out of 4 of: graphic sex, graphic violence, drug use, foul language. ASoIAF could easily have 3 of those 4, and hence get an R18 (for our TV parental control purposes the same rating system is used as for movies).

Foul language can make it into unrestricted movies/TV. Anything under graphic levels of violence can make it into unrestricted territory. Same with drug use. Combine any of these 2 and you will be skirting the restricted zone. Any sex/nudity greater than a boob-or butt-flash pretty much puts you into the restricted zone independant of any of the other things (our lowest restriction is R13).

Assuming they eliminate genitalia shots I think the TV series here will top out at R16 here.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

What do these figures mean and what impact do they have on the series? Will a stricter rating mean less viewers?

[Ran]

It's HBO. It wouldn't really have any impact.

[Ser Greguh]

To clarify some things, if Season 1 of Rome had been submitted to the MPAA for a rating, it would have certainly had to have quite a few scenes trimmed if it wanted an R. Most of them involve sex, in particular the first sex scene between Atia and Timon, which is far more graphic than they will allow in an R (too much thrusting, male genitalia visible during the sex act, both of which will consistently get you an NC-17). The gladiator scene would probably need to be trimmed, though the MPAA is notoriously inconsistent when it comes to what it allows in terms of violence (there were a *lot* of beheadings in LOTR and it still got away with a PG-13). It's very rare that a movie gets an NC-17 for violence. The MPAA is a lot more uptight about sex, and Rome had no shortage of that (a couple of my friends called it the "everyone gets naked" show).

You can't get an NC-17 for language alone (1994's [i]Clerks[/i] was the last movie where they tried it to my knowledge, and it was overturned on appeal), though more than one "fuck" in a movie will almost always get you an R. This in turn leads to a stupid movie metagame where you're watching a PG-13 movie and get to guess where it is they will spend their one "fuck". You also cannot generally use "fuck" in a sexual sense and get away with a PG-13.

Thankfully none of these ridiculous rules are applicable to HBO, where the series will no doubt be released with a TV-MA rating and voluntary warnings for Violence (probably extending it to Graphic Violence for certain episodes), Adult Content, Adult Language, and Nudity. That's descriptive enough. The language is not pervasive enough for "Graphic Language" and in most episodes the sex/nudity will not give it a "Strong Sexual Content" warning, though that's semantics.

The right way to pitch it will be as a show intended for adults with pervasive violence, sex, and language. Categories are meaningless.

Edit to add: to be clear, the show is beyond the stage where they're "pitching" it. They've been greenlit to make a pilot, and once it is made it will stand on its own content. There is certainly the opportunity for the content of the pilot to be representative of the content in the series as a whole.

[Jane Doe]

[quote]There was genetalia in ROME, wasn't there? Some slave guy's dong was fully exposed, and wrapped up in a bow tie. Scared the heck outta me.[/quote]

I stopped watching Roma from right there.

I guess aSoIaF will probably be on par with 6feetunder. TV-15 or Tv-17? I don't mid TV-MA. For the show to present its best we need the languages, violence and sex. Personally I don't want a PG, that would cut a lot of good and vital stuff. Plus, this book was never meant for children/teenager, so why bother?

Harry Potter, on the other hand, if made into a TV Series, even by Showtime, would only be categorized as PG-15, I guess.

[The Anti-Targ]

[quote name='Kingthlayer!' post='1599276' date='Nov 25 2008, 11.36']There was genetalia in ROME, wasn't there? Some slave guy's dong was fully exposed, and wrapped up in a bow tie. Scared the heck outta me.[/quote]

When Brutus was having his little nervous breakdown they flashed his wanger too.

I think "you smell like a camel's c#nt" might earn that episode a "graphic language" tag. Won't be in the pilot or series 1 though.

I do think the pilot needs to be a good indicator of what to expect for the rest of the series language-, sex-/nudity- and violence-wise. That way no surprises down the track for the uninitiated. As long as the pilot gets to "the things I do for love" all those elements will be present.

[Horza]

[b]MH[/b]: Maximum Hodor.

[Heartsbane]

Not really sure of the American or Oceanic system of ratings, so I'll make presumptions for what it would be in the UK. I think U, PG, 12A (why, oh why), 12, 15 and 18 are all the rating certificates here. 15 films like, say, Gladiator, can contain a lot of a single attribute, violence, swearing or (to a degree) sex. aSoIaF has much violence and sex, but compared to some series (ala Deadwood) the swearing is pretty limited. I think they could cut out a lot it out, though the word "c*nt" is probably the problem, though in actual fact it is a medieval word meaning a sheath for one's sword, quite apt in fact :P. However I'd guess it would probably fit the 18 bill, and thus air at 9pm (I think, the watershed might be 10) at the earliest on any of the BBC channels, if they come in on the project, which I hope to god they do, no advert breaks is heavenly :)

[Heartsbane]

[quote name='Heartsbane' post='1611695' date='Dec 7 2008, 15.46']Not really sure of the American or Oceanic system of ratings, so I'll make presumptions for what it would be in the UK. I think U, PG, 12A (why, oh why), 12, 15 and 18 are all the rating certificates here. 15 films like, say, Gladiator, can contain a lot of a single attribute, violence, swearing or (to a degree) sex. aSoIaF has much violence and sex, but compared to some series (ala Deadwood) the swearing is pretty limited. I think they could cut out a lot it out, though the word "c*nt" is probably the problem, though in actual fact it is a medieval word meaning a sheath for one's sword, quite apt in fact :P. However I'd guess it would probably fit the 18 bill, and thus air at 9pm (I think, the watershed might be 10) at the earliest on any of the BBC channels, if they come in on the project, which I hope to god they do, no advert breaks is heavenly :)[/quote]

Was also going to add that I don't think the certificate will have [i][/i]too[i][/i] much impact on the viewer ratings as people under the age of 18 who want to watch it will watch it. I know my parents always relied on my own judgement when growing up, though I'm still a bit miffed at my dad putting on [i][/i]Aliens[i][/i] at the age of 9 when I asked to watch a sci-fi >.<

[Ran]

Quite a tangent, but the word "cunt" almost certainly did not mean the sheath of a sword. In the early 13th century, it was applied to female genitals, and before that we can trace its origins to Anglo-Saxon and other Germanic languages, but the precise meaning is lost according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

It's generally assumed that the word was always a factual term for the genitals. Some have put forward that it came into the Germanic languages via Latin "cunnus" (also a term for vagina), but that seems rather unlikely for linguistic reasons.

[Red Sun]

I don't know about the sex scenes, per se. For example, I'm not sure if it is really necessary to include a graphic rape scene, imo, it's enough to just imply that it happens. I'm also not sure, if a TV audience will react so well to detailed Tyrion sex scenes. It's one thing to read about it in a book, and maybe even embellish the character, than watching it on the screen.

However, I don't think that the strong language would be a problem.

[quote name='The Anti-Targ' post='1594803' date='Nov 20 2008, 05.10']So, would you be too upset if the series was pitched at the top end of the unrestricted ratings spectrum? Probably means little or no nudity. No "camels c#nts" or "F@&k your ar%e bloody with a pitchfork" (or however it goes) and other such rich and colourful language.[/quote]

"Camel cunts" is not so much worse than the language in Deadwood. And you can use slightly toned dow, but still colourful variations of the second sentence.

[Brude]

[quote name='Erik of Hazelfield' post='1604278' date='Dec 1 2008, 02.57']What do these figures mean and what impact do they have on the series? Will a stricter rating mean less viewers?[/quote]
A big part of the reason why people pay for HBO is so they can watch just this sort of adult oriented dramatic series without having to worry about the kind of censorship you get on non-pay television. If anything this aspect of the show is a bonus for HBO because it will help them maintain their viewership who don't want to be treated like children by the powers that be.

[siyrean]

for the whole sex thing, when i watch True Blood, Rome, SatC, it seems like they focus on one character to have the more graphic sex scenes and all the other actors's are more tasteful. i think it's pretty obvious that it would be Cercei in our case, so i doubt we get overly graphic anything else.

[Brude]

[quote name='siyrean' post='1611814' date='Dec 7 2008, 15.08']it seems like they focus on one character to have the more graphic sex scenes and all the other actors's are more tasteful. i think it's pretty obvious that it would be Cercei in our case, so i doubt we get overly graphic anything else.[/quote]
Dany, too, probably.

SPOILER: And, well, you'd get...

Jamie and Lancel with Cersei probably, too.

[Adelle Tully]

I think that cutting out scenes with violence and sex and all that would highly diminish the effect the series has on one's senses. This is the first series I've ever read that doesn't play the atrocities of war down or sheer irony of things like Samwell being the Slayer. To mellow these things out would be a disgusting thing and would put the series on a level with things like Wheel of Time (no offense there, I still love the series but it's too PG - when Faile is taken she gets some swats on the rear, in ASIOAF and real life she would have been raped). These books were written towards an adult audience and should kept as such.

Besides (as I love to bring up), did you SEE what they did to the Sword of Truth series? They mellowed it out horribly and made it a PG thing for Disney. And that's just their first mistake, but we won't go into that just now as that is a completely different story and I have more faith in D&D and HBO than Disney for adult themed stories.

However, if they end up bursting into lame song while trying to kill the Others, I will stop watching right then. I will never watch another HBO show as long as I live.

[Heartsbane]

[quote name='Ran' post='1611710' date='Dec 7 2008, 16.17']Quite a tangent, but the word "cunt" almost certainly did not mean the sheath of a sword. In the early 13th century, it was applied to female genitals, and before that we can trace its origins to Anglo-Saxon and other Germanic languages, but the precise meaning is lost according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

It's generally assumed that the word was always a factual term for the genitals. Some have put forward that it came into the Germanic languages via Latin "cunnus" (also a term for vagina), but that seems rather unlikely for linguistic reasons.[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification, I read the information that lead me to believe the hypothosis in an article for the first year of my degree, though I could very likely be misremembering as it was a while ago! But the article should be somewhere on JSTOR, if I can find the link I'll post it, it's pretty interesting if you're into that sort of thing.

[pictou]

Restricted or NC-17...keep to the theme of the books

[About Yea High]

I have high hopes that it will be as gritty and shocking as we want it to remain.

Most parents I know are offended by sex, nudity, and abundant cursing. My own dad, for one, walked out of the room while I was watching Deadwood - after the third "Cucksucker" in as many seconds he just couldn't take it ... and he LOVES westerns.

But they seem to turn more of a blind eye to violence, so the networks think they can sneak more violence into shows.

However, that comes with a big caveat: violence to children. It's a big no-no, most parents can't stand watching it, and many will turn away from it - or turn the channel.

HBO knows these things; they've read the studies. They're also known for pushing the envelope. Bran getting his ass tossed out the window as the cliffhanger to the very first episode is a great sign for us, as far as faithful re-tellings go.