Sword fighting!

[cronos619]

[quote name='SergioCQH' post='1609424' date='Dec 4 2008, 14.27']I appreciate your sportsmanship, cronos. I also appreciate the Sooners taking the Florida beating for us.[/quote]

:rofl: no doubt, if recent BCS performance is any indicator

now, back on topic before the mods hit us with a stick


I am currently in the process of organizing people and equipment to film a couple scenes as kind of a, "Here is what I put together on 3 weeks and no budget" once its done I'll post a link in this thread and ask you guys for some feed back.

[Bolton Bastard]

[quote name='SergioCQH' post='1609167' date='Dec 4 2008, 13.43']Ran, I think you're exaggerating the extent to which grappling was employed in actual historical combat. Perhaps many fights devolved into grappling matches, but the existence and apparent popularity of the sword militates against the suggestion that knights preferred to grapple as an opening move. If that were the case, swords would be of little use. Daggers and dirks would prove far more effective.[/quote]

That's partially the point. Look at the fetchbuch and an overwhelming amount have the final kill with daggers. However If you start out a duel with daggers you in all likelihood would never get to your opponent before you have half your bones broken.

Now these moves were of course used mostly for duels of the trial by combat nature. Big battles would pretty much look nothing like this as grappling and use of daggers and such would leave you open to attack. This is partially why there were so few recorded deaths of full knights in combat. Even the famous battle of Agincourt in which the French knight charged the archers, most of the deaths were from the lower less well equipped knights, though I admittedly do not have the numbers in front of me.

[Knight of Redemption]

It is also a point that Knights tended to fight to the yield, (a live knight fetched more in ransom than a dead one). This is one of the reasons for all the grapples and binds. Get your opponent to the ground and place your weapon in a weak spot (like the visor)

On the subject of blocks, the first point is (no pun intended) The ideal is to block with the forte of the blade (this is the part of the sword below the cutting edge) it is also possible to block with the flat of the blade. Both of these techniques save the cutting edge from damage. Also deflecting the attack with a glancing blow (as shown in the YouTube video) is extremely effective. And as has been pointed out, a hand and a half or two handed sword is deadly even when blunt.

It is possible in my experience (small scale fight choreography for film and television and live displays) to choreograph a sword fight in a visually exiting way, while keeping as much as possible to authentic medieval skills.

I'm sure HBO and the BBC will try their best, and as long as they get good choreographers all will be well. After all in this day and age there is no excuse for a bad sword fight, with the wealth of WMA experience there is both here in Europe and indeed increasingly in the states.

Honor Above all

Paul (Chapter Master of the Irish Chapter of the European Historical Combat Guild)

Proud to have put on a combat display for the great GRR himself.

(Hi Martha ;-)

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Mjehehe' post='1606413' date='Dec 2 2008, 14.49']Hmm cybroleach you are wrong!
Jaime, Sandor, Boros et cetera are some of the finest warriors in the world. How skilled can one be at hacking at eachother's shields? This video is an illustartion of actual medieval longsword techniques, something that requires years and years of training.[/quote]
That was a huge aspect of sword fighting which is why you would often see the strategy of "wearing one out". They hack and slash at eachother's shields and use brute strength and stamina to overcome their enemy. That doesn't mean that a lot of the moves seen in the youtube video weren't used, because they were. However, much of it was not flashy.

Personally I'll be pleased with it as long as they don't make them look like ninjas in armor doing backflips and jumping off of walls. I know all of that stuff is terribly exciting for some, but a line has to be drawn.

[Warmhands]

The sword fighting doesn't have to be spot on accurate for me as long the styles used fit the character

Jaime is renowned as one of the most [b][/b]skilled[b][/b] fighters is Westeros, therefore is fighting style has to look skilled, so fast and perhaps a little showy, as long as he doesnt look like a jedi or legolas from the LOTR films, it will be fine for me.

On the other end of the spectrum are the Cleganes. Again as long as the combat involving these two looks suitably brutal and the styles used show how strong and ferocious they are I will be perfectly happy.

No one really wants to see a blow by blow recreation of authentic fighting manuals. As long as the combat looks good and above all (Ill say it again) fits the character, the historical accuracy can take a bit of a back seat (so long as its not too ridiculous...)

[Pathfinder]

Hello everybody!
Being a big Ice and Fire fan, I was also ecstatic by the news about the series. Being also a practitioner of western martial arts a bit, and knowing that HBO makes things as "realistic" as possible, I also thought how real fighting styles would not satisfy only a swordfighting buff, but also average viewer as well, with skilled camera work. Frankly, I was pleasantly surprised to see that some one also thought of this and started this tread. Here are tree very nice videos to illustrate my point:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealGladiatores"]http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealGladiatores[/url]
Cheers!

[The Hound's Bastard]

It makes a big difference that those 2 weirdo's in the park are using 2 handed swords instead of sword and shield. The 2 fighting styles are entirely different and not that many people in westeros, other than the obvious 1s use 2handed swords. a fight between Jaime and Sandor for example would be pretty awsome to see (pre hand being lopped off), and would be over in a single blow or grapple

Also it depends what setting you're basing this on in the books. single combat as in Bronn and Vardis? or a mass brawl as in the Green Fork or whatever else.

In an open battle i would assume you kill as quick as you can and move on to some other poorly armed peasant.

In single combat of 2 highly skilled fighters it's gonna drag on a bit. Every slash has a counter, and every counter a counter.

Reading what happens blow by blow takes longer than what would really happen of course, all we read probably happens in the blink of an eye. I think the fight scenes are written pretty bang on and shouldn't be messed around with for the series.

[antisocial]

My frame of reference for people in full armor sword fighting has always been John Boormans "Excalibur"
That movie I think is a "more realistic" representation of medieval armored combat than say Braveheart.

My hope is the producers decide to go with gritty vs (over-done) Hollywood flash.
I posted this link to better illustrate what I mean. And as how most of the action plays out in my minds-eye when I read GRRM's fight scenes.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dURNAFRTsVw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dURNAFRTsVw[/url]

This is how I'd like to see the sword-play act out in the HBO series, not the comic bookish action style that we see in movies nowadays.
Even GRRM's writing of sword play describes it as bashing on each other looking for weak spots in the armor or delivering a strike that disables, so a person can make the killing blow.
Bronns defense of Tyrion comes to mind as does the Red Viper fight vs the Mountain, among many others.


For those of you who are Patrick Stewart fans, yes thats him sporting full plate and swinging a battle axe around, too full effect I must say.

(In my opinion this is the best Arthurian movie ever made, I really get pissy when someone tries to convince me "First Knight" was anything more a sad joke of the Aurthur legend. See I'm getting pissy now just writing that.)

[Pathfinder]

Hey there Antisocial. First of all, I loved and still like "Excalibur". But fighting is just bashing and clubbing IMHO. Even armored combat had some sofisticated methods of fighting. Ever seen the works of Fiore, Talhoffer, Liechtenauer?
Cheers!

[jaeherys]

I agree with whomever said the battle and dueling scenes from Troy would be a great fit for the series. Would it be too much of a budget strain to get one of these choreographers to do the action scenes in Ice and Fire? Granted the styles are vastly different from what was practiced in Greece and what would be in the book, but the battle between Hector and Achilles was fantastic. To a lesser extent the one between Hector and Patroclus were great.

[Ran]

You know, I never got the appeal of the Hector-Achilles fight in that movie. It was, for lack of a better word, very stagey.

Achilles storming the beach and mowing down through a few dozen Trojans was, on the other hand, awesome but way too over-the-top for ASoIaF.

[antisocial]

[quote name='Pathfinder' post='1618003' date='Dec 13 2008, 00.12']Hey there Antisocial. First of all, I loved and still like "Excalibur". But fighting is just bashing and clubbing IMHO. Even armored combat had some sofisticated methods of fighting. Ever seen the works of Fiore, Talhoffer, Liechtenauer?
Cheers![/quote]
No I had not. Well I did see a special on medieval sword fighting but they didnt name the styles.
So I googled and Liechtenauer came up with some really nice youtube/google videos of people demonstrating different techniques.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS-fFZKunzE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS-fFZKunzE[/url]
I always knew that western style of sword fighting was just as refined as eastern, I just didnt know it was taught anymore and to be honest just how many moves there were.

Thank you Pathfinder.


On that special I watched (5+ years ago), they showed two-handed sword fighting and one move they did really stuck with me. I'm hoping someone would know the technique and tell my what style it is. (So I can look it up again)
Lets see if I can describe it.
The attacker comes in with an overhead chop, the defender blocks with his sword parallel to the ground sword point to the left of his body. He then rotates his blade around the attackers blade and then (and this is what I dont remember very well), he then somehow locks the attacker blade with his crosspiece, and the defender then pulls his sword across his body with while rotating his torso to the right and dropping to his right knee (it looks like the defender is cradling his sword in his left arm). And it ends up pulling the attacker off balance and the defender is able to place the tip of his sword under the attackers chin. Leaving the attacker with only one option; drop his sword and step back.
It was the most amazing thing Ive seen.
And I have yet to find it in my video browsing.

[Pathfinder]

Yes, MEMAG boys have some real nice videos on WMA. In case you missed it above, here's another link to 3 very nice vids too:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealGladiatores"]http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealGladiatores[/url]
Can't tell what technique it is by your description, sorry.
About WMA, there is a very big problem, unlike eastern martial arts who had more or less preserved lineages from medieval times to the present, WMA only recently started rediscovering techniques from medieval and rennescance (sp?) manuals, which are mostly written as reminders for experienced fighters for example, and not as "complete guide books", so there is a lot of studying, trial and error, etc. stuff involved.
Btw, the movie with most impressive, to me at least, but not at all flashy man-to-man fighting is Tristan + Isolde. So far.

[LordNedsHead]

Hey all. Been reading these boards off and on over the years. I finally decided to register an account.
As to the fighting in the series I hope its very realistic. When I say this though I mean realistic to the series. I'd hate to see the boring lunge and thrust sword fighting that so many of the you tube links demonstrate. While I realize that in practice these seemingly brutish moves take hours of focus and repetition to perform effectively is just won't make good (or exciting) TV.
When I say keep it realistic, I want the stunt coordinator(or fight scene choreographer, whatever) to stick to the flavor of the books as much as possible. Make it dramatic. It is after all a fantasy novel. I don't think the gravity-defying antics of the old Xena series would be appropriate, but there should definately be some flare to the combat.
One thing I actually like about the overall bland Legend of the Seeker series is the fighting. Someone put some thought into making them look natural, yet exciting. Now if they could only stick the plot of the books they might be doing better off.
Also, lets remember that there are definately some different fighting styles in the books. You have your classic medieval fighting styles, but you also have waterdancers(swashbuckling), dothraki(thinking Conan the Barbarian here), unsullied(Spartans) and others. Also, there should definately be some different styles amongst the knights of Westeros. The two big examples that come to mind from the series are the duel between Bronn and Ser Vardis and Gregor vs. the Viper.
All in all I'd say that the guy in charge of the fights has a daunting and very important role in making the series exciting and fresh. I hope he's up to the task.

[CelticBrennus]

The main problem, if you are interested in historical accuracy would be that knights, especially two of them wearing full armor, didnt fight with swords. Swords were never more then sidearms, to be used once the lance or spear broke. A mace, or knightly pole axe would be far more likely to be used in combat between armored foes. Swords were great against unarmored people, but when you want to take down an armored person, not the most useful thing out there.

[Merentha]

[quote name='Bolton Bastard' post='1608160' date='Dec 3 2008, 18.17']Depends a lot on what the knight used. A lot of knights didnt wear shields as their armor was deemed strong enough, so yes they did parry with their swords. In fact, from what I remember many techniques I've seen involve blocking with a sword in some way that can go straight into an attack.

That's not to say that everyone parried all the time, as there are plates I've seen depicting a man using his armor or gauntlets to catch an opponents sword instead of parrying.[/quote]
Blocking and parrying aren't the same thing, either. A block is pretty rare, while parries are fairly common in my sparring HEMA group. (Actually, the only block I can think of that I've used with any regularity is a left ochs against a zorn...)

[The Stranger]

those grappling moves would look ridiculous against people in full plate, especially given that executing one correctly would mean instantaneously dropping a strapped-on shield from one's arm. Also, seeing as very few of the elite-level fighters in the book have to date engaged in single combat, I dunno how that would look like anything other than dancing on a battlefield. Especially since the biggest top-tier character fights (Beric/Hound, Gregor/Oberyn) were so carefully described that you couldn't throw in some bastard sword pirouettes too easily.

the good parts about excalibur fighting are also what would make ASOIAF fighting look a bit boring on TV: people get banged around in that much armor more than they get dramatically killed--this is why the lighter-armored Troy style wouldn't work for anyone besides Oberyn Martell.

my hope is that they can play off of these practical constraints to actually enhance the quality of each main fighter's persona. I [i]want[/i] to see Gregor not even notice if someone tries to spear him in the back, just like I want the Hound to demonstrate his brutality by actually maiming people through plate and mail. On the other hand, I think the constraints of armor/sword/shield could be even more fantastic in evoking the preternatural skill of Jaime and Loras. If they can find a credible method of making it look like those two can move gracefully in armor, a lot of the job in my mind will be done.

the one thing i think could look great is Valyrian steel. especially if they play up the horror of it just shearing through lesser metals.

[Pathfinder]

I don't agree on "grappling in armour is ridiculous". Well, it's not my agreeing or disagreeing really, it WAS done. And I think that it was developed because it works in both armoured and unarmoured combat, unlike punching for instance.

[The Stranger]

[quote name='Pathfinder' post='1622456' date='Dec 17 2008, 06.07']I don't agree on "grappling in armour is ridiculous". Well, it's not my agreeing or disagreeing really, it WAS done. And I think that it was developed because it works in both armoured and unarmoured combat, unlike punching for instance.[/quote]

you just quoted something which was not said.

as for the moves in question, I am not interested in a historical debate, especially not one dealing in vagaries. in the world of ASOIAF, with all of the personalities AND weapons technologies described therein, these moves would get people torn apart.

[Pathfinder]

Ok, I don't agree that "those grappling moves would look ridiculous against people in full plate". To each his own. And I know that chances for the series to be an actual turning point in movie industry's depiction of sword fighting is zero, but that doesn't mean I can't still wish it to be. And for the way it is depicted in ASOIAF, GRRM has done much to bring some realism in it, but there is still room for improvement. Not wishing to argue or anything, I must ask you to explain what did you mean by people getting torn apart by the moves, cause I don't understand what do you mean by that. Cheers.