Arya vs. Dareon

[siyrean]

[quote name='lcjonsnow24' post='1671743' date='Feb 2 2009, 22.17']uggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
this is the problem amongst the well educated tho
after a while, its so ingrained in our brains to analyze everything that you forget just to read
stop caring about the child soldier mentality, like she's some crazy 8 year old running around with an AK in the Sudan. And yea, I do care about Arya; she's bad ass. But that doesn't mean I really care to analyze her psychology and scour ever little attention to detail to diagnose her with a disease. And I'm not telling you anything, so don't accuse me of it. I'm saying you're over analyzing it. It is really that important for you to make Arya out to be terrible, just to prove your ridiculous points that she represents hopeless young girls in society? Does she really need your sympathy? I'd wager a lot that she wouldn't give a damn about any of that if she really did exist, and she'd probably run you through with Needle, because in her mind, that would be funny. And that's the point; she's an interesting character, so she can get away with it.[/quote]

i have no idea why you're even reading let alone replying to this thread if this is your mindset.

[Wraith Regent]

[quote name='siyrean' post='1671776' date='Feb 2 2009, 21.45']i have no idea why you're even reading let alone replying to this thread if this is your mindset.[/quote]

if u bothered to read previous posts, u'd understand that I've already established my pov many, many times.
because I've already said, many many many times, she was justified. So the answer to the question is
YES
i don't think I can be much plainer than that

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='lcjonsnow24' post='1671743' date='Feb 2 2009, 20.17']...stop caring about the child soldier mentality, like she's some crazy 8 year old running around with an AK in the Sudan.[/quote] No thanks. It's a useful paradigm to compare Arya to, though I think she's nearly the opposite of child soldiers.
[quote name='lcjonsnow24' post='1671743' date='Feb 2 2009, 20.17']And yea, I do care about Arya; she's bad ass. But that doesn't mean I really care to analyze her psychology and scour ever little attention to detail to diagnose her with a disease. And I'm not telling you anything, so don't accuse me of it. I'm saying you're over analyzing it. It is really that important for you to make Arya out to be terrible, just to prove your ridiculous points that she represents hopeless young girls in society?[/quote] What did you think people would discuss in a thread entitled "Arya vs. Dareon, was it just, was it right?" And I don't mind if you don't want to analyze Arya; why do [i]you[/i] care if other posters do want to analyze her? But since you ask: Errant Bard is interested, I think, in GRRM successfully drawing, or better yet maintaining, a significant amount of sympathy for a character whom he then makes truly dark and sociopathic ... a shocking subversion of the loveable tomboy trope. I mention that because I take the opposite position (which gags EB): that GRRM uses Arya to show that, in some circumstances, a person can kill repeatedly and still be "good" in the ways that matter most to people.
[quote name='lcjonsnow24' post='1671743' date='Feb 2 2009, 20.17']Does she really need your sympathy? I'd wager a lot that she wouldn't give a damn about any of that if she really did exist, and she'd probably run you through with Needle, because in her mind, that would be funny. And that's the point; she's an interesting character, so she can get away with it.[/quote] Actually, if she thought running a harmless person through with Needle was funny, then EB would get his wish for Arya to go completely dark/sociopathic. But I say Arya would NOT do that, because she retains a strong sense of justice and compassion for ordinary people, even though she kills people in various circumstances. Which brings us to Dareon: was killing him beyond the pale, indicating Arya is truly dark and sociopathic? Or was it some kind of aberration (seems not, as Arya had ample time to think about it)? Or was it sufficiently justifiable so Arya needn't have become sociopathic to kill him?

To my understanding, child soldiers lose all compassion for ordinary people. I think Arya's demonstrated caring and compassion about good and harmless characters is much more significant indicator of her character than are any of the "behaviors consistent with sociopathy" that Arya happens to engage in, such as constantly changing identities, lying, killing without compunction, etc. So to my mind she remains "good," not sociopathic (though perhaps in danger of it), a killer but not a wanton killer. And she's astonishing because she's done all this on her own at the ages of 9-11 through will and persistence.

Arya seems to have given the matter a lot of thought before going into that alley with Dareon. Dareon wasn't a threat to her, or to anyone, so at most he deserves to die for abstract, legalistic reasons, unlike everybody she's previously killed (or ordered killed). To some, that makes her a more interesting gray character; to others, it makes her well on the way to total subversion of her initial trope; to others, it makes her a much less sympathetic character. To me, it raises the question of why we haven't had Arya killing Dareon confirmed [i]to us[/i] as a fact, but that isn't the question of this thread.

Arya's character is a long stretch of something - of the tomboy trope, and/or of common conceptions of what it means to be good. That's why she's so interesting to me ... not just her ability to kill.

So Arya is badass - is that enough for you? If questions of human decency have no bearing on your loyalties, Ramsey Bolton is a badass in need of some fans.

[Wraith Regent]

k, I'm done talking about this one
I don't really know how many times I need to say that her actions up to this current point have been justified
and I really don't care if you keep posting, what I care about is definitive answers instead of so much speculation and working around the question
and I like the deep nature of her character, I just don't understand why my points are constantly questioned when I've made it perfectly clear 5-6 times about why she was justified

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1671933' date='Feb 3 2009, 09.21']Errant Bard is interested, I think, in GRRM successfully drawing, or better yet maintaining, a significant amount of sympathy for a character whom he then makes truly dark and sociopathic ... a shocking subversion of the loveable tomboy trope. I mention that because I take the opposite position (which gags EB): that GRRM uses Arya to show that, in some circumstances, a person can kill repeatedly and still be "good" in the ways that matter most to people.[/quote]Indeed :thumbsup:

I wouldn't gag me if she became what you think, though, it's just that I would lose the interest I have in her as a character, she would become like Dany or Jon, one of the good guys, nothing really exceptional or worthy of heightened attention, an archetype we met in many many other fantasy.


[quote name='lcjonsnow24' post='1672865' date='Feb 4 2009, 00.57']what I care about is definitive answers instead of so much speculation[/quote][quote]I just don't understand why my points are constantly questioned when I've made it perfectly clear 5-6 times about why she was justified[/quote]:rofl:
You don't understand the concepts of interpretation, opinions, or discussion, or the point of posting a thread in a public forum, do you? I'll give a hint: it's not to have everyone agree without question on how you are [i]definitely[/i] right.

Also, using line breaks
makes for readable fluid posts,
but not mid sentence

[Wraith Regent]

So you're telling me that after 36 posts you still don't have an answer????????

[Errant Bard]

My opinion is formed but sometimes changes through my interaction with other boarders. Likewise, sometimes I may influence someone to change what he thought ever so slightly.

I don't even understand your question, truly, it presuppose that I had questions rather than opinions or theories and that an internet forum where the author isn't posting could provide us the the [b]truth[/b] about a work of fiction. You are wrong on both counts. There are no more definitive truths about ASOIAF here than there are in a congress of physicist about the working of the universe.

[AryaSnow]

sorry, it was a mistake :P

Please, delete this post.

[Kittyhat]

Okay, full disclosure first: I confess I did, indeed, skip to the end to post. I read some of this thread, but I didn't read all of it, so it's possible I missed something relevant.

That said!

There are clearly those who believe that executing Dareon (and make no mistake, it was an execution, whether vigilante or not) was wrong. To those of you who take that position, let me ask you something:

Do you believe the penalty for desertion of the Night's Watch should be death or not?

If you do, then Dareon deserved to die, and Arya was right to kill him (even if she was only right as a vigilante), and there can be no further discussion of the matter. He either deserves to die, or he doesn't; he can't deserve to partly die. No half-measures are possible in this matter.

Now, for those of you who don't, let me ask you another question:

What would you have the penalty be?

Imprisonment? Flogging?

A "time out" in the corner?

Look, the Night's Watch is the only thing, apart from the Wall itself, standing between Westeros and annihilation. Annihilation. This ain't no joke, kiddies: if the Others come, and the Night's Watch blows it, everyone is screwed. Every. One.

Now, it's a thankless job. As a man of the Night's Watch, you get to look forward to cold days, cold nights, cold weekends, cold everything ... and that's before winter comes. There's not much fun to do, and you can't have a family, either. About the best you can do for "love" is some whores, and that's if you're willing to bend your oath a little.

Do you believe for one moment that if the penalty for desertion weren't both the ultimate penalty and also set in stone, the Night's Watch would be able to keep the few men it does have? Do you think if it went from being an absolute demand that they keep their vows to a casual request that they wouldn't start deserting right and left? Do you think that if all they had to do was say, "I didn't do it!" and then they could just walk that they wouldn't? And even those who might not have deserted immediately, what are they going to do when half of their brothers just stroll back south, and suddenly they're holding the Wall practically by themselves?

Westeros can't afford to play around with deserters from the Night's Watch. It's not even about Dareon; it's about the Watch itself. The moment what he tried to pull becomes even a little okay, you may as well just put up a sign on the Wall that says "Others Welcome!"

No, Dareon did deserve to die. People like Dareon have to die, or else all of Westeros will die the next time the Others decide to invade. There's no room for half-measures, no pussyfooting around. The fact that Dareon in particular had also scored the sweetest possible gig a man of the Night's Watch could ever have just made him that much less sympathetic to me; honestly all he had to do was do what he'd normally do and just add some songs about the Night's Watch. But he couldn't even do that.

I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

[Lummel]

For me it's not that the death penalty should or should not be applied to deserters from the Night's Watch that is interesting.

We know from Bran I AGOT that decapitation is the accepted punishment for desertion in the North afterall.

What's interesting for me is that Arya assumes the role of her Father as Judge and Jury in this case. Does she do this to provoke the Kindly Old Man? Or because she finds Dareon offensive and irritating? Or is it her inner Stark coming out? It's an interesting (if grrim) moment.

[theladyinspring]

Do you believe the penalty for desertion of the Night's Watch should be death or not?

This is a complicated question for me, because I understand that it is such in Westeros and I understand why it is. But I consider the very existence of the Night's Watch and the way they gain recruits to be fundamentally unsound and filled with injustice. The Night's Watch is one of many dying/decadent institutions in the ASOIAF world.

Dareon is a lively, sociable musician who seduced a noble girl and for this was sent to live in misery on the wall for the rest of his life. That is an injustice. What is the correction for that injustice, if not "desertion"? No other remedy exists. Not to mention, Jon in his cold "Starkness" was rather cruelly blind here: sending Dareon out for an indefinite period (could be years), alone once he drops his brothers at Oldtown, to play in taverns and inns and courts and great houses just like he used to do, and stay loyal to the NW that he was forced to join in the first place.

But you have to understand that from my point of view, it's a very unjust world and that is not okay. It's the current reality but I can't just roll with it. The complexity of this issue is a signal to me that something is seriously wrong in that world so it is a problem of the system. Therefore, I can't really sit and judge the individuals who are forced to live within it. Arya is a much more sympathetic character than Dareon and if I had to spend time with one or the other I would choose her, but I don't think he deserved to die for what he did.

[The Non-Human]

He did what he did, and he got killed for it, as he should have. To me, that's all there is to it.

Specially because he was being a loud-mouth about it, IIRC.

[Kittyhat]

This is a complicated question for me, because I understand that it is such in Westeros and I understand why it is. But I consider the very existence of the Night's Watch and the way they gain recruits to be fundamentally unsound and filled with injustice. The Night's Watch is one of many dying/decadent institutions in the ASOIAF world.

Alright, well then let me ask you this: bearing in mind that the Others don't care how we feel about justice and will be coming when they decide to come regardless, what would you do differently if it were suddenly up to you to decide the future of Westeros? What would you change with respect to the Night's Watch?

[theladyinspring]

Alright, well then let me ask you this: bearing in mind that the Others don't care how we feel about justice and will be coming when they decide to come regardless, what would you do differently if it were suddenly up to you to decide the future of Westeros? What would you change with respect to the Night's Watch?

The Night's Watch isn't the way it is now because of the threat of Others. They haven't been a threat for thousands of years and there is a giant, warded wall in their way. The issue for the Night's Watch has really been the wildlings, not the Others. And this is yet another area where greater humanity and ethics could have improved the situation but brutality and enmity were chosen instead. The Night's Watch got to this point because it's deemed unimportant. That's why only criminals, nobodies, and old men with nowhere to go end up there. I would promote Night's Watch as something honorable for second and third sons. The Lord Commander should be more prominent in Westeros. I know this: someone like Dareon should never have been in the Night's Watch and his very presence there is a symptom of the greater problems. It's ridiculous.

To me, the entire system in Westeros is unjust. That's why I don't care who sits the Iron Throne, because the smallfolk will still be sent off the Night's Watch at a lord's whim no matter who sits it. It's just one part of a very big problem. I look at it like my favorite tv show, The Wire, which is about no matter if you are great or small, criminal or law, politician or homeless man, decadent institutions stand in the way of any real progress. ASOIAF is not a story about ice zombies or dragon princesses, not for me. It's about a tragic world. The politics and war and the double-binds are what interest me. So I don't look at the Night's Watch in terms of how best to defeat the ice zombies because the Watch as it is today really has little to do with that.

[Slingingstones]

The Night's Watch isn't the way it is now because of the threat of Others. They haven't been a threat for thousands of years and there is a giant, warded wall in their way. The issue for the Night's Watch has really been the wildlings, not the Others. And this is yet another area where greater humanity and ethics could have improved the situation but brutality and enmity were chosen instead. The Night's Watch got to this point because it's deemed unimportant. That's why only criminals, nobodies, and old men with nowhere to go end up there. I would promote Night's Watch as something honorable for second and third sons. The Lord Commander should be more prominent in Westeros. I know this: someone like Dareon should never have been in the Night's Watch and his very presence there is a symptom of the greater problems. It's ridiculous.

To me, the entire system in Westeros is unjust. That's why I don't care who sits the Iron Throne, because the smallfolk will still be sent off the Night's Watch at a lord's whim no matter who sits it. It's just one part of a very big problem. I look at it like my favorite tv show, The Wire, which is about no matter if you are great or small, criminal or law, politician or homeless man, decadent institutions stand in the way of any real progress. ASOIAF is not a story about ice zombies or dragon princesses, not for me. It's about a tragic world. The politics and war and the double-binds are what interest me. So I don't look at the Night's Watch in terms of how best to defeat the ice zombies because the Watch as it is today really has little to do with that.

Well said, TLIS. I believe you've threaded the needle.

[Black Amethyst]

While I do think that justice should have been served to Dareon for deserting the Watch, I don't think that was Arya's call to make.

[halftoe]

I think that she was 100% legit to gut the craven blackcoat. Arya is a highborn lady of House Stark, Wardens of the North. It is known across the lands what the punishment for abandoning the Watch is, her own lord father would have sliced this cravens head off using Ice. Eddard had told his sons that if they should have to take a life, they had better do it themselves.

She is a little young, but I was rather proud to see that she did it herself and that she did not forget the boots....