Arya vs. Dareon

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1626567' date='Dec 20 2008, 16.36']The free cities remind me a lot of a third world country. Their laws aren't really laws, so much as suggestions. They aren't a truly civilized society (in my eyes), and they're entirely of no consequence.[/quote] :stunned: What the hell? Notwithstanding your appalling consideration for third world countries, you consider Westeros to be more civilized than the Free Cities? You know, just so that the "law" you argue Arya is enforcing is not of no consequence.

Edit: nevermind, you already answered that. Oh, wow.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1626668' date='Dec 20 2008, 11.49']:stunned: What the hell? Notwithstanding your appalling consideration for third world countries, you consider Westeros to be more civilized than the Free Cities? You know, just so that the "law" you argue Arya is enforcing is not of no consequence.[/quote]
It is an opinion. Am I not entitled to have an opinion? Particularly when discussing two ficticious lands? What I meant by the rule of suggestion is, that the feel I got for Braavos and the free cities in general is that their custom is one where a few coins will get just about anything (within reason) swept under the rug or wiped away... The death of some wandering Bard is definately one of those things that I could see them really not giving two shits about...

[About Yea High]

After weighing the various arguments and consulting the entrails of the bard I sacrificed in order to come to my conclusion, I now move to stand in support of Arya of Stark's actions. The execution of Dareon was timely, and (likely) done with swift efficiency, much like Eddard Stark might have done, which I reason was her motivation. This is the King's Justice. Arguing Dareon's locale in the [i]free cities[/i] is moot; Robert Baratheon certainly didn't care where Daenerys was when he called for her head. The King's Justice (such as it is in these sad times) knows no barrier, and I do not recall any instance in which they were used as safe-haven that provided a shield from death based on their "free" status alone.

("Tag! I got you! You're dead" "No! I'm home safe! This is a free city!")

Errant Bard's arguments, while salient, are obviously tinged a personal color. He is errant, and a bard, and wishes to continue his freeloading lifestyle on the coast of France; singing, drinking, wenching, all that, without fear of some pre-teen taking a blade to his spleen.

Just so.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='About Yea High' post='1626724' date='Dec 20 2008, 21.11']He is errant, and a bard, and wishes to continue his freeloading lifestyle on the coast of France; singing, drinking, wenching, all that, without fear of some pre-teen taking a blade to his spleen.[/quote]Damn right. Your overlord threw me in Guantanamo under false charges, too.

Edit: Oh, yes, about that bard sacrifice, men carrying heavy violin cases have been dispatched to your address, courtesy of the musician's guild.

[King Nobody]

[quote name='About Yea High' post='1626724' date='Dec 20 2008, 15.11']This is the King's Justice. Arguing Dareon's locale in the [i]free cities[/i] is moot; Robert Baratheon certainly didn't care where Daenerys was when he called for her head. The King's Justice (such as it is in these sad times) knows no barrier, and I do not recall any instance in which they were used as safe-haven that provided a shield from death based on their "free" status alone.[/quote]Like I said before, this is not the King's justice, Arya was not charged by the king to carry out his justice, nor is she even eligible given her status, she has no legal authority, or obligation to kill Dareon regardless of his locale.

Robert Baratheon did not send his own vassals, charged with the king's justice to kill Daenerys, he offered a lordship to whatever lowlife would murder her. This is much different and you must understand this, if he had any kind of authority in the free cities, if the laws of Westeros counted for anything there, he could have simply commanded whoever runs whichever city Daenerys happened to be in, to give him her head, but he didn't, this to me implies he couldn't, otherwise he would not even consider wasting money on a faceless man for something that could be done for free.

And Blauer Dragon, you are entitled to your opinion, although most opinions usually are formed off a basis of fact.

[The Anti-Targ]

Hey EB did you actually read the context of where Sam and Aemon fit in to the desertion? Dareon cannot truly be said to have deserted until he abandoned the duty he was set: which is to accompany Sam and Aemon to Oldtown and from there travel the length and breadth of Westeros singing the praises of the NW to attract recruits. Before he abandoned Sam and Aemon he was not a deserter, once he abandoned them he was.

I don't buy the argument that Westeros is somehow more civilised or more sophisticated and governed by a better legal system, let alon that it might contribute to the justification of Arya's actions as right. I appears to me the free cities are governed by equivalent but different administrative structures. There is really very little difference between medieval societies that are at least organised to the level of the city-state.

The way I see it, if word got back to Jon of Dareon's desertion in Braavos, and Jon despatched a couple of Black Brothers to go and execute him, no one would object that Dareon did no get his just deserts according to Westerosi Law. If some Westerosi hedge knight who had a brother in the NW was in Braavos, anonymously witnessed Dareon's act(s) of desertion, and decided to honour Westerosi law, and his brother in the NW, by carrying out the death sentence that would undoubtedly be pronounced upon him, who would really say the hedge night was wrong, or evil or sociopathic for doing so? And if Arya was 7 or 8 years older...?

The thing that is "off" about Arya vs Dareon is Arya's age, not her decision. But the Dareon incident itself is not the issue, it's her life experiences up to that point which gave her the tools and attitude to carry it through. Some people think GRRM presents Arya's decision as arising purely from vengeance and an increasing tendency to kill for even the smallest of slights or misdemeanors. But I think the way it is presented indicates to me that a significant part of Arya's motiviation is in relation to Dareon's desertion. In other words had Dareon not been a deserter from the NW I believe she would not have killed him, even if it was only because she would have known the KM would completely disapprove and might kick her out. So the killing of Dareon by no means shows Arya as being devoid of conscience or awareness of consequence, or a creature acting solely on impulse.

She is showing increasing sociopathic, tendencies I've said so myself in previous threads. But her execution of Dareon was not a sociopathic act. It was very much an act with a significant amount of social awareness and conscience to it.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]There once was an immoral sociopath,
who killed an ex-convict in righteous wrath.
But her fans say "Taboo?
Shmaboo!". I like Mary Sue,
cause she’s pretty, a loner, and good at math![/quote]
I endorse this product or service, and move that all arguments in this thread be made in one of the following forms: limerick, haiku, sestina, or villanelle.

This killing by Arya of Stark
Falls short, so I think, of the mark.
Deserve it he did,
But she's only a kid;
She can't simply kill for a lark.

The pit and gallows
Is not free to all seekers,
And a trial must be.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='The Anti-Targ' post='1626953' date='Dec 21 2008, 03.30']?Some people think GRRM presents Arya's decision as arising purely from vengeance and an increasing tendency to kill for even the smallest of slights or misdemeanors. But I think the way it is presented indicates to me that a significant part of Arya's motiviation is in relation to Dareon's desertion.[/quote]
Her tendecy to kill is mostly for survival. Yes, for vengeance too.
But she has never killed "for the smallest of slights or misdemeanors".

[quote]In other words had Dareon not been a deserter from the NW I believe she would not have killed him, even if it was only because she would have known the KM would completely disapprove and might kick her out.[/quote]
No, she wouldn't have killed him because she wouldn't have wanted to kill him..

[Errant Bard]

Vanishing morals
Shifting city of canals
Just behind the maid death crawls

[King Nobody]

[quote name='The Anti-Targ' post='1626953' date='Dec 20 2008, 22.30']The way I see it, if word got back to Jon of Dareon's desertion in Braavos, and Jon despatched a couple of Black Brothers to go and execute him, no one would object that Dareon did no get his just deserts according to Westerosi Law. If some Westerosi hedge knight who had a brother in the NW was in Braavos, anonymously witnessed Dareon's act(s) of desertion, and decided to honour Westerosi law, and his brother in the NW, by carrying out the death sentence that would undoubtedly be pronounced upon him, who would really say the hedge night was wrong, or evil or sociopathic for doing so? And if Arya was 7 or 8 years older...?[/quote]Sure, Jon could have sent a couple of black brothers to do what Arya did, but he has that authority as the Lord Commander of the Night's watch, also while he can do it, it still might not be legal, at this point we have more evidence to assume Westerosi laws do not apply in the free cities. You are also acting like just because someone is a resident of Westeros meens they are qualified to enforce Westerosi law, that is not how it works.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Autumn is so cruel
even poor exiles taste the blade
of dead king's justice.

[Errant Bard]

Black and cold no more
a dream of spring I can't sing
with a slit throat.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Enforcing laws of
non-existent government
requires make-believe

[Rinso]

Had I been in his place
I would have done the same.
I’d vanish without a trace
to not be Others’ game.
So who is she to judge
with her bloodthirsty grudge?
She’s not a king, nor lord
she’s got no right to swing the sword.

[Errant Bard]

Weird foreign lands laws
a child doesn't care about
her father was right

[Errant Bard]

In her mind Arya is right
she acts in accordance
and enforces her will with might

that's why she has sometimes a fight
without begging her conscience askance
few people wonder if they are really right

You think that when Dareon took flight
he told himself: let go of his chance
Aemon cannot live longer, but if I help, he might

I admit, it would have been worthy of a knight
but not everybody can assume such a stance
and to freedom an innocent man, even a jerk, has a right

So when Arya takes delight
of judging him after merely one glance
I see it as dangerous abuse of her might

I fully expect Martin to write
though maybe not in Dance
that if might makes right
right doesn't justifies brutal might

ETA:
Yes, I know, I know
The metric is messed up
I am no poet

[Lady Blackfish]

*headache*

[The_BlauerDragon]

In the land where bastards loom on high,
where highest whores go floating by,

where neutered slaves are guards and more,
and a few gold coins can settle a score,

there is a place where the men have no faces.
There dwells a young wolf in one of these places.

Though age she has not, her reason is true.
She saw a deserter and she knew what to do.

They called him the bard, this roaming F**ktard,
for he danced, and he sang, and he drank pretty hard.

The young wolf not knowing, if she were the last,
did exactly as she had known right from her past.

They argue for her, this deed was most dreaded,
but she knew this coward must be beheaded.

She slipped up beside him, this dead man a walking,
she gifted him truly, and stopped all his squawking.

His body she tossed, in the channel like trash,
such fate must await those turned deserter for cash.

The lord of the winter, this young wolf is not,
but in the cities of freedom, she's the closest they've got.

Was it right for her to toss out their laws?
I for one, can't see any flaws.

She did what she did, and did it most rightly,
even if doing it, was something unsightly.

Arya the Queen, Arya the child
Arya the just, Arya the wild

Seven save the men in her thoughts,
For some day she'll find them and they'll escape not!

[Bolton Bastard]

because I want to see how this holds up and how people react, I'm going to try and break it down using social contract theory on laws.

The social contract of the Westeros is that if a member of the night's watch who abandons their post have broken their contract with their lords and with the night's watch. Being so it is within a lord or the night's watch to punish them.

A member of a society who has committed a crime is judged by the lords and is able to take the black if granted that option.

Dareon is an untrustworthy source so the reader does not know if he raped a girl or not. This does not necessarily matter as screwing a noblewoman can also be seen as breaking a social contract and therefore punishable by the sovereign power.

Dareon entered into a second social contract upon taking the Night's Watch Oath. Because he was forced to does not matter as people are born into societies and must play by the pre-existing contracts anyway.

When Dareon abandons his post he breaks the Oath meaning that the sovereign power or a representative of the sovereign power can dispense justice as they see fit.

Arya is not a representative of the sovereign power, as she is not a member of the higher cast anymore as well as her entire family being removed from Westerosi law systems. And in killing she broke another social contract (of westeros anyway, Braavos seems a little lax on murder laws). So in conclusion of at least this theory Arya's actions were not lawful.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that particular social contract (with the NW) pre-date the iron throne? As such, would it not be the Kings of the North, and their lords and bannermen that had the highest amount of authority to enforce said contracts? Arya [i]IS[/i] the sister of the King in the North [i]AND[/i] she is [i]ALSO[/i] the sister of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Would that not put the right to execute squarely in her lap?