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Arya vs. Dareon


The Anti-Targ

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[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1628146' date='Dec 22 2008, 15.43']Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that particular social contract (with the NW) pre-date the iron throne?[/quote]
Sure. So what?
[quote]As such, would it not be the Kings of the North, and their lords and bannermen that had the highest amount of authority to enforce said contracts?[/quote]
Nope, that doesn't follow at all. The North abdicated it's sovereignty under Torhenn, the King who knelt. I'm not even sure what "highest amount of authority" is even supposed to mean when it comes to enforcing the common laws of Westeros, but the Starks were never supreme authorities in Westeros. There have always been other houses that were at least equal, if not superior in strength. For all we know, [i]all[/i] of the old kingdoms may have executed deserters from the NW; nothing terribly special about the Starks that can be used to excuse Arya's murder.
[quote]Arya [i]IS[/i] the sister of the King in the North [i]AND[/i] she is [i]ALSO[/i] the sister of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Would that not put the right to execute squarely in her lap?[/quote]
No.....members of the NW are supposed to set aside their old familial ties when they say their words. Blood relationships to NW officers confer absolutely zero legal jurisdiction. And it's pretty dubious whether kid sisters are held to have any sort of right of summary execution, either. Even if they aren't kid sisters of attainted rebels and traitors who have been stripped of all titles, property, and authority.

I am curious whether the Arya defenders are also willing to justify the KGB murder of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko_poisoning"]Aleksandr Litvinenko[/url] in London. After all, the extra-territoriality aspect is identical. Do "representatives of foreign powers have the right to execute their own citizens in any country, while ignoring local laws?
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I have no care for the king who knelt. Robb stood back up. Call it a right of recession. Whether or not the Kingship of the North is intact currently makes no difference (in my view). Until such time as a lawful successor to Robb's crown takes the knee, the North is a sovereign nation and subject to it's own laws. To answer your question, I see no less credibility in what the KGB did and what the U.S. Marshalls do on a regular basis. If you commit a crime in the country that you are in, you should be subject to that country's laws no matter which country you travel to next. I uphold the same belief for people in countries around the world that live beneath a tyrannical regime. If you flee from the country, then you should not be shocked if agents of that country should one day (or night) come for you and/or your head. Question: If a person engages in sexual activity with a 15 year old in a country where 18 is the legal age of consent, and then travels to a country where 15 is the legal age of consent, has that person still committed a crime? And would you support arresting and extraditing said person? In a system where there is no "extradition" process, and the laws are much grayer (in many regards), what is wrong with a person who has the right and responsibility (by right of birth), exorcising that right and dispensing justice regardless of the terrain?
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[quote name='Drezin' post='1628231' date='Dec 22 2008, 15.25']It surprised me, but I do not think Arya is now a "bad guy" for doing it, thought it could definitely be some foreshadowing of things to come for Arya.[/quote]

I sure hope so. It's the first time that she has purposefully ended a life for a higher cause. It was not just sheer survival, and it shows volumes for the depth of her character and endurance of her spirit.

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1628261' date='Dec 22 2008, 16.00']The laws are not so gray
To allow execution
Without a trial.[/quote]

UP
From Hell
He who suffers
and wonders
the Bard that was slain
his blood runs like water
He does not know
Where his boots have gone
He does know
He did not know it was his judge
it was his excecutioner
it was a lordess of Winterfell
a Princess of the North
The sister of the Lord Commander
THAT
was to whom he
in all his haste
and ignorance
confessed his crime
a trial was not
in the end needed...
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Ah but Bauer Dragon, by SCT Robb would have also been an outlaw for having broken the contract with the crown.

You can argue that Cersei first broke the contract with the crown and you'd be right. However, Robb rebelled with NO KNOWLEDGE of what had occurred choosing to believe father figure over sovereign power.

According to the theory it was well within Joffrey's right to behead someone who tried to depose them. And while we can all agree Joff was a piece of shit who did not deserve to sit the thrown, politically or socially. He had not yet broken any contract and as such was just. If word was spread that he was a creature of incest then a rebellion would be in upholding the contract. Also, if he proved through time that he was a worthless king he could be deposed by a rebellion and it would be just.

However, neither occurred and Robb (and Greatjon) broke the social contract that was held with a few hundred years of precedent. And then, to further weaken Arya's case, they themselves lost. Her family no longer holds sovereignty over any lands nor was given power by any government. And even if her family had, she was acting outside of political ties or orders.
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I guess the duality of my position is what I am failing to get across. Yes, Robb broke the law, and he died for it. That does not change the fact that when he broke from the old contract of union, he rendered it null and void. Now the North is a kingdom unto itself (whether it has a king or not). By law and tradition, house Stark is the ruling house in the North. Arya is of house Stark. Additionally, it was Jon who took the oath to not become engaged in the disputes and/or affairs of his family members, Not Arya. Arya has taken no such oath, and is in no way obligated to obey it.
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[quote]I have no care for the king who knelt. Robb stood back up. Call it a right of recession. Whether or not the Kingship of the North is intact currently makes no difference (in my view). Until such time as a lawful successor to Robb's crown takes the knee, the North is a sovereign nation and subject to it's own laws.[/quote]The north is not a sovereign nation, even if they could be considered such during the rebellion, they cannot now. They have been "reconquered" and returned to the peace of the iron throne, with Bolton as the warden of the north.


[quote]I uphold the same belief for people in countries around the world that live beneath a tyrannical regime. If you flee from the country, then you should not be shocked if agents of that country should one day (or night) come for you and/or your head.[/quote]No, just no... and you are a terrible person. Also, refugee status.

[quote]In a system where there is no "extradition" process, and the laws are much grayer (in many regards), what is wrong with a person who has the right and responsibility (by right of birth), exorcising that right and dispensing justice regardless of the terrain?[/quote]Arya holds absolutely no position of authority whatsoever in Westeros, especially given she is a traitor, she would hold even less in the free cities. And no, she does not have the responsibility to take anyone's life, she's nine.
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The answer depends greatly upon the wording of the question. The OP has asked two, with two completely different answers.

[b]Was it just?[/b]

For it to be just, it would have to be a lawful action carried out by a proper authority.

Is it a lawful action?
Yes: The penalty for deserting the Night's Watch is death. The lawfulness of killing a deserter to the Night's Watch cannot be debated.

Is Arya Stark a proper authority?
Yes: Eddard Stark was such an authority. It is a fair assumption that this was by sole virtue of his birthright as Lord of Winterfell. Unlike all those that come before her in the order of succession, Arya is neither legally dead nor accused of treason. At the time of Daeron's death Arya Stark is technically Lord Eddard's legal heir, the true Lady of Winterfell, whether anyone knows it or not.

The only question remaining is whether motive influences justice, as her motives were decidedly not pure.

[b]Was it right?[/b]

No: Assuming we can agree that killing someone is only justified if that person is a threat to others. Daeron wasn't a great person and had some bad karma coming his way, but he was not intending to hurt anyone and did not deserve to die.
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[quote name='Dornish' post='1628479' date='Dec 23 2008, 01.56']Is Arya Stark a proper authority?
Yes: Eddard Stark was such an authority. It is a fair assumption that this was by sole virtue of his birthright as Lord of Winterfell. Unlike all those that come before her in the order of succession, Arya is neither legally dead nor accused of treason. At the time of Daeron's death Arya Stark is technically Lord Eddard's legal heir, the true Lady of Winterfell, whether anyone knows it or not.[/quote]Arya is not accused of treason because she is believed dead. At the time of Dareon's death Eddard does not have a legal heir, Sansa is a traitor by association with Tyrion, her sudden disappearance making it all the more incriminating.The "legal heir" would be fake Arya. Unless you are going by "whether anyone knows it or not" like you said, then Bran is heir.
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[quote name='Ser Bruce the Hound KG' post='1628489' date='Dec 23 2008, 01.17']Arya could be viewed as the true heir and the Iron thone as declained 'Arya' to be Lady of Winterfall fake or not Arya is Lady of winterfall from on point of view[/quote]Precisely. The throne has more or less endorsed the claim of "Arya Stark" themselves. A decision that I believe will bite them in the end.
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About justice, the point of view matters
Rules of the North dictated the murder
Yet do examine what others may say
A man who had no contact with the North
Is really like Sam's summer islanders
Seeing the same things with other blinders
Any one can thus pretend to be just
People bring constantly their justice forth
Salman Rushdie's sentence is reminder
You can get condemned when you bother
Correct me if wrong, but it's still justice
Heeded by many nations and cultures
Out here execution becomes murder
People home still support it with fervour
And yet the killer isn't above laws
That he flaunts deeming his to be better
He would deserve more than being blinded
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