Arya vs. Dareon

[TK-421]

I agree it was murder and not justice. There is a world of difference of how Ned dealt with the man from the Night's Watch in AGOT who ran away and was caught and how Arya deal with Dareon. Justice was not hers to dole out but she has become a vigilante-type (not that I blame her for that). Murder is murder.

[King Nobody]

[quote name='Bolton Bastard' post='1628823' date='Dec 23 2008, 12.35']what local laws? On the contrary, Braavos seems to have next to no laws against murder.[/quote]Thats not fair to assume seeing as how we have only saw the slums of Braavos. That would be like going to Detroit or chicago and basing every assumption you have on the city based on the ghetto.

[Bolton Bastard]

King Nobody, I would generally agree with you, if it wasn't for the blatant existence of the House of Black and White.

And hey, I live in Chicago, and I've only murdered like 2 people. It's not that bad, I swear.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Bolton Bastard' post='1629225' date='Dec 23 2008, 16.06']King Nobody, I would generally agree with you, if it wasn't for the blatant existence of the House of Black and White.

And hey, I live in Chicago, and I've only murdered like 2 people. It's not that bad, I swear.[/quote]

Ah, but how many mafia kick-backs have you taken? Or are you not in politics?

[Sandor's Lady]

Something that I've always found interesting is that Arya took Dareon's boots. She didn't take his money, she didn't take his clothes, and she didn't pitch him into the cannal completely unspoiled. Historically, an executioner (I know of hangmen for sure, I don't know if it applies to other means of execution) earned the boots of the man he hanged as part of his legal pay. I took the image of Arya taking the boots to mean that she, at least in her own mind, was taking on the role of executioner, especially as there has already been so much talk of the "gift" of the Many-Faced god.

I realise we don't see this imagery in the execution Ned presided over in GoT (and I don't think Ned has a closet full of boots of NW deserters ;) ) But I do think the imagery was intentional. Whether we as readers, or even GRRM himself, think this is right, or are supposed to think this is right is a very complicated question. I think the point is that [i]Arya[/i] thinks this is right.

[The_BlauerDragon]

That is a very good point. There is also the significance of being buried with your boots on to consider. In the American Southwest (Days of the Wild West) A man who died fighting or "died in his boots" (such as a gunfighter) could expect to be buried with his boots on, and it was considered to be an honor. In the bard's case, he abandoned the fight, turned his back on his honor, and did not deserve to be buried with his boots on.

[King Nobody]

You Arya sympathizers are really reaching now.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Good boots are hard to come by

Taking the boots from Daeron shows what a caring and conscientious person Arya is. She has lived under the old fisherman's roof for a long time and feels she must repay his kindness to her. Giving him money wouldn't have worked. He would have wasted it on a drinking binge. The clothes were not much help either. They are conspicuous and would have made him a suspect in the singer's murder. And while a good fisher, he wouldn't have known what to do with a bard's harp. But boots... ah boots are just what a fisherman needs.

Worn out quickly by the touch of the sea a fisherman is always in need of good fresh boots. And coming from the Wall they would be warm enough to protect him from the chill of the approaching winter. I know she didn't take them to the cobbler for a refitting, but nobody's perfect and she didn't have the time to do it.

For Arya is a good little girl,
Kind, modest and generous to all.

Her mother she yet honors with her name,
Her brother she repays with a name.

She gives fish to the needy,
And boots to the reedy.

For Arya is a good little girl,
Kind, modest and generous to all.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1629492' date='Dec 24 2008, 11.14']Good boots are hard to come by

Taking the boots from Daeron shows what a caring and conscientious person Arya is. She has lived under the old fisherman's roof for a long time and feels she must repay his kindness to her. Giving him money wouldn't have worked. He would have wasted it on a drinking binge. The clothes were not much help either. They are conspicuous and would have made him a suspect in the singer's murder. And while a good fisher, he wouldn't have known what to do with a bard's harp. But boots... ah boots are just what a fisherman needs.

Worn out quickly by the touch of the sea a fisherman is always in need of good fresh boots. And coming from the Wall they would be warm enough to protect him from the chill of the approaching winter. I know she didn't take them to the cobbler for a refitting, but nobody's perfect and she didn't have the time to do it.

What a good little girl Arya is.[/quote]
:lol:
What an imaginative interpretation.

She took the boots because they were the only NW thing Dareon was still wearing (not incidentally, she notices that a little time before. There is a reason why GRRM had specified all that). It has a symbolic meaning of justice (I know the action wasn't right, but from her point of view it's justice).

[quote]For Arya is a good little girl,
Kind, modest and generous to all.[/quote]
Modest... no, she isn't :P
Kind and generous [i]to all[/i]... no, she isn't.
Kind and generous to many people... yes, she is :)

[the silent speaker]

She kills those she thinks death is just --
But that is the thing I don't trust!
It places herself
On a much higher shelf
Than all of the crowd in her dust.

Even Lord Beric
Gives a show of a trial
Before the hanging.

[TheEvilKing]

I think taking the viewpoint that this was justice and noble and the right thing to do, or that this was evil and murder and bad, really you're missing out on the gloriously grey moral area that this chapter is. And the whole character of Arya really. You gotta love the lil serial killer.

[UndergroundMan]

I love Arya and she is my favorite character, but I have to say that it was morally wrong of her to murder Dareon and I see her going down a darker path in the future. But you have to realize... Arya is a ten year old girl who has seen so much violence and death at a tender, young age. Her psychological state is probably not in the best condition.

[Happy Ent]

[quote]Arya is a ten year old girl who has seen so much violence and death at a tender, young age.[/quote]
Lots of people are ten year old girls who have seen much violence and death at a tender, young age. Many of them weren’t born with a golden spoon in their mouths, like our little noblewoman, and many haven’t enjoyed the protection of cool swordmasters, magical super-assassins, or held positions as privileged as [i]cup bearer[/i] to a major lord. Yet they don’t go around killing people. [i]Hot Pie[/i], for example, is utterly [i]appalled[/i] by Arya’s behaviour. Even a [i]trained killer[/i] like Ned Dayne scoffs at the idea that children like himself (or younger, like Arya) should kill people.

So don’t use cultural relativism: by the standards of Westeros, Arya’s behaviour is appalling, even before she kills Daeron. We have textual evidence for that. Also remember that Arya’s upbringing remains extremely privileged and her lot is [i]not[/i] remarkably worse than most.

[add-on]

[quote name='Dornish' post='1628557' date='Dec 23 2008, 04.45']I'm not given to the temptation
to think justice depends on location
If you vow to adhere
to a certain rule here
then there is the same situation[/quote]
:lol: Best in thread. Well done.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1631711' date='Dec 28 2008, 00.21']Yet they don’t go around killing people.[/quote]
Because they are less inwardly strong, less brave and less clever.
Not because they are morally better.
For the same reason, they'd not even have done Arya's altruistic actions (in fact Hot Pie didn't want to help the crying girl).
And in Arya's situation, if they hadn't killed anybody, they'd have been dead.

[quote][i]Hot Pie[/i], for example, is utterly [i]appalled[/i] by Arya’s behaviour.[/quote]
And he was [i]stupid[/i], not morally admirable.
He had already killed Amory Lorch's men. And he was enthusiastic in doing that.
Those killings were justified, but Arya's killing of Harrenhall guard was justified too.
Hot Pie's reaction was stupid and hypocrite.
But, fortunately, then he stopped and went on being friendly to Arya :)

[quote]Even a [i]trained killer[/i] like Ned Dayne scoffs at the idea that children like himself (or younger, like Arya) should kill people.[/quote]
It was quite rare, but not particulary incredible. And "strange" doesn't necessary mean horrible or wrong. Again: why a child who kills is morally worse than an adult who kills? He could be more unusual, but why morally worse? I see no logic...
Moreover, I say again that then Ned Dayne clearly explains that he hasn't killed because there wasn't the appropriate situation. If the battle had gone in a different way, he'd probably have killed.

[quote]So don’t use cultural relativism: by the standards of Westeros, Arya’s behaviour is appalling, even before she kills Daeron. We have textual evidence for that.[/quote]
Arya's behaviour before killing Dareon is neither appalling nor wrong, Westeros culture or not.
You will never find a textual evidence that teachs you what is morally good and what is morally bad. [i]You[/i] have to make [i]your own[/i] judgement.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1632175' date='Dec 28 2008, 17.14']You will never find a textual evidence that teachs you what is morally good and what is morally bad. [i]You[/i] have to make [i]your own[/i] judgement.[/quote]
[i]My[/i] judgement doesn’t enter into it. I don’t think I even formed one.

I merely claim that people [i]in Westeros[/i] are appalled by Arya’s behaviour, which I put forth as a strong counter against the argument “from culture”.

[AryaSnow]

Only one Hot Pie (only momentary and even incoherent with his real behaviour) reaction doesn't seem to me a stong arguement to the thesis "in Westeros people are appalled by Arya's bahaviour" :P Moreover, there are also arguements which can be given against this thesis. For instance: Gendry never said anything against Arya's bahaviour, he even liked her; Brienne was neither surprised nor scared by Pod's bahaviour (who went on saying with nonchalance that he is ready to kill and who was proud of the killing he made).
And the cultural arguement would be important in any case, because the fact that in Westeros killing is much easier than in the modern society [i]anyway[/i] should be seriously considered.

I don't remember if you expressly made a personal judgement, but you seem to insinuate one. Maybe my impression is wrong... So let's clarify: do you think that Arya's bahaviour is appalling? In particular, do you consider appalling her bahaviour before the killing of Dareon?

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1632332' date='Dec 28 2008, 20.59']So let's clarify: do you think that Arya's bahaviour is appalling? In particular, do you consider appalling her bahaviour before the killing of Dareon?[/quote]
Hm. I don’t think I often make that kind of judgements, and certainly not about fictional characters.

But since you ask: yes, I guess so, it seems to follow trivially by my standard stance of “thou shalt not kill”. But it really isn’t something I think much about, and I don’t think my personal judgements are an interesting conversation topic.

[AryaSnow]

"thou shalt not kill"...
So you consider (or better, are inclined to consider) appalling the bahaviour of 99% of the ASOIAF characters too?

Oh, your opinion may be a very intersting thing. Not because it is [i]yours[/i], but because in general the discussion between different points of view is interesting :)
Obviously, you are not obliged to discuss :D

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1632366' date='Dec 28 2008, 21.51']So you consider (or better, are inclined to consider) appalling the bahaviour of 99% of the ASOIAF characters too?[/quote]
Yes.