Israel attacks Gaza

[Rane]

[b]Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192[/b]
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of airstrikes Saturday, killing nearly 200 people and wounding 270 others in the single bloodiest day of fighting in years.

Most of those killed were security men, but civilians were also among the dead. Hamas said all of its security installations were hit and responded with several medium-range Grad rockets at Israel, reaching deeper than in the past. One Israeli was killed and at least four people were wounded in the rocket attacks. With so many wounded, the Palestinian death toll was likely to rise.

The air offensive followed weeks of intense Palestinian rocket and mortar fire on southern Israel, and Israeli leaders had issued increasingly tough warnings in recent days that they would not tolerate continued attacks.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said Israel would expand the operation if necessary. "There is a time for calm and there is a time for fighting, and now is the time for fighting," he told a news conference. He would not comment when asked if a ground offensive was planned.

But asked earlier if Hamas political leaders might be targeted next, military spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich said, "Any Hamas target is a target."

The strikes caused widespread panic and confusion in Gaza, as black clouds of smoke rose above the territory, ruled by Hamas for the past 18 months. Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as children were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children. Most of those killed were security men, but civilians were among the dead.

Said Masri sat in the middle of a Gaza City street, close to a security compound, alternately slapping his face and covering his head with dust from the bombed-out building.

"My son is gone, my son is gone," wailed Masri, 57. The shopkeeper said he sent his 9-year-old son out to purchase cigarettes minutes before the airstrikes began and now could not find him. "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn," Masri moaned.

[url="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=WVEC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT"]http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_...EMPLATE=DEFAULT[/url]

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Now, I not exactly sure what Israel hopes to achieve with this. Sure, they killed 100+ members of Hamas, but in doing so also killed any chance that Hamas and the other factions will agree to a hudna for a while. Also, since Hamas will have to respond to this (and is already doing so), Israel will end up invading Gaza, with very little chance to actually achieve something.

Personally, the only reason for this that I can think of is the coming elections, with Kadima showing that can be as tough as Likud.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='rANE' post='1631435' date='Dec 27 2008, 13.40'][b]Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192[/b]
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of airstrikes Saturday, killing nearly 200 people and wounding 270 others in the single bloodiest day of fighting in years.

Most of those killed were security men, but civilians were also among the dead. Hamas said all of its security installations were hit and responded with several medium-range Grad rockets at Israel, reaching deeper than in the past. One Israeli was killed and at least four people were wounded in the rocket attacks. With so many wounded, the Palestinian death toll was likely to rise.

The air offensive followed weeks of intense Palestinian rocket and mortar fire on southern Israel, and Israeli leaders had issued increasingly tough warnings in recent days that they would not tolerate continued attacks.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said Israel would expand the operation if necessary. "There is a time for calm and there is a time for fighting, and now is the time for fighting," he told a news conference. He would not comment when asked if a ground offensive was planned.

But asked earlier if Hamas political leaders might be targeted next, military spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich said, "Any Hamas target is a target."

The strikes caused widespread panic and confusion in Gaza, as black clouds of smoke rose above the territory, ruled by Hamas for the past 18 months. Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as children were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children. Most of those killed were security men, but civilians were among the dead.

Said Masri sat in the middle of a Gaza City street, close to a security compound, alternately slapping his face and covering his head with dust from the bombed-out building.

"My son is gone, my son is gone," wailed Masri, 57. The shopkeeper said he sent his 9-year-old son out to purchase cigarettes minutes before the airstrikes began and now could not find him. "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn," Masri moaned.

[url="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=WVEC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT"]http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_...EMPLATE=DEFAULT[/url]

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Now, I not exactly sure what Israel hopes to achieve with this. Sure, they killed 100+ members of Hamas, but in doing so also killed any chance that Hamas and the other factions will agree to a hudna for a while. Also, since Hamas will have to respond to this (and is already doing so), Israel will end up invading Gaza, with very little chance to actually achieve something.

Personally, the only reason for this that I can think of is the coming elections, with Kadima showing that can be as tough as Likud.[/quote]
What do you expect Israel to do. Obviously it's a bad situation, but they can't just take repeated attacks without some kind of retaliation. Wish it could have been cleaner and better planned though. It's odd though that you give Hamas the excuse that they're going to have to respond because of the attacks, but you try to blame Israel when they retaliate to attacks.

[Samalander]

[quote name='rANE' post='1631435' date='Dec 27 2008, 19.40']1) Now, I not exactly sure what Israel hopes to achieve with this. Sure, they killed 100+ members of Hamas, but in doing so also killed any chance that Hamas and the other factions will agree to a hudna for a while. Also, since Hamas will have to respond to this (and is already doing so), Israel will end up invading Gaza, with very little chance to actually achieve something.

2) Personally, the only reason for this that I can think of is the coming elections, with Kadima showing that can be as tough as Likud.[/quote]
1) The objectives are clear. After one to two weeks of fire from both sides, Hamas will sue for a cease-fire, the terms of which will be reasonable (as opposed to what they had in mind thus far).
As for the whole Gaza invading thing, we'll definately try to avoid that, if at all possible.
No one is thinking that removing Hamas from power at this time is a realistic goal.
2) Eh.. no. If this whole operation goes well (and that is a very big if) the person to reap all the rewards and accolades will be Avoda party leader, Israel's minister of defense, Ehud Barak.

[Samalander]

[quote name='turinturambar' post='1631450' date='Dec 27 2008, 20.04']Wish it could have been cleaner and better planned though.[/quote]
There is no "cleaner" way to go about things in Gaza. It is the most heavily populated region in the world. You can hit militant targets and rocket depos only and still civilians will be hurt because of the density of population.
It was extremely well planned and Hamas was surprised, even though they knew this might happen.

[Shryke]

[quote name='turinturambar' post='1631450' date='Dec 27 2008, 13.04']What do you expect Israel to do. Obviously it's a bad situation, but they can't just take repeated attacks without some kind of retaliation.[/quote]

Sure there is. It just doesn't involve the kind of feel-good retaliatory strikes taht keep anything from getting done in the region.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1631476' date='Dec 27 2008, 20.30']...retaliatory strikes taht keep anything from getting done in the region.[/quote]
Something will get done. After this, we'll get months of peace from that frontier.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1631476' date='Dec 27 2008, 20.30']Sure there is. It just doesn't involve the kind of feel-good retaliatory strikes...[/quote]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWcNiebYGuo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWcNiebYGuo[/url]

[Werthead]

The Gaza situation is very nicely fucked up. Hamas launches attacks from there and the Israeli retaliatory strikes kill tons of civilians because it's one of the most densely-populated regions in the world. Hamas gets to claim that Israel is attacking civilian targets, Israel gets to claim that Hamas is using its own people as shields.

Best-case scenario, the tit-for-tat retaliations continue, eventually there's a ceasefire and they get to do it all again in a year's time.

[Lightsnake]

What Wert said. This situation is all kinds of fucked up tragic.

[Inigima]

I agree it sucks but I don't know what else Israel is expected to do. The response seems more than reasonable.

[G'Kar]

Yeah, its just...fucked up. Not much else to say.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1631509' date='Dec 27 2008, 21.20']The Gaza situation is very nicely fucked up. Hamas launches attacks from there and the Israeli retaliatory strikes kill tons of civilians because it's one of the most densely-populated regions in the world. Hamas gets to claim that Israel is attacking civilian targets, Israel gets to claim that Hamas is using its own people as shields.
Best-case scenario, the tit-for-tat retaliations continue, eventually there's a ceasefire and they get to do it all again in a year's time.[/quote]
Pretty much spot on, except for the "tons of civilians" part. I would estimate a dozen at most in the latest attack.

[The Stranger]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1631546' date='Dec 27 2008, 16.14']Pretty much spot on, except for the "tons of civilians" part. I would estimate a dozen at most in the latest attack.[/quote]

the number in question seems to be about 16 dozen.

god, i wish Sadat hadn't betrayed Assad in '73.

on tit-for-tat: this is an entirely useless term when dealing with this discrepancy of violence. the expression implies some kind of symmetrical reciprocity in action. just today we are dealing with a situation where one side has lost a single individual, and the other side has lost 192. let's call this what it is: another maneuver in a slow policy of genocide.

[Ashaman]

well now the world get to see how israeli election campains look like, if you dont kill and retalliate hard towards the palastinians you have a slim chanse of geting elected comming next election. and becours next election are not that fare off one need to hit realy hard so that no one can come sniking up behind you and say you did not acted though egnof. damn this is just bread and sircus, and a newly added remedy; blood.

what anoyes me the most are that israel have gothen a "good to go" on this from the EU and The USA. and that they have put their foreign relations workers back on work early to cope whit all the bad PR and remind us about the growing antisemitism as a kind of a excuse.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='The Brucer' post='1631567' date='Dec 27 2008, 15.44']let's call this what it is: another maneuver in a slow policy of genocide.[/quote]

Must be very slow as the Palestinian population keeps on increasing in size.

Next the Israelis are Nazis, right?

[The Stranger]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1631572' date='Dec 27 2008, 16.47']Must be very slow as the Palestinian population keeps on increasing in size.

Next the Israelis are Nazis, right?[/quote]

strawman.

as per the growing Palestinian population, try reading up on Israeli planned parenthood policies and tell me what you find. I'll wait.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='The Brucer' post='1631577' date='Dec 27 2008, 15.54']strawman.[/quote]

No, just commenting on patterns that tend to arise.

[quote]as per the growing Palestinian population, try reading up on Israeli planned parenthood policies and tell me what you find. [b]I'll wait.[/b][/quote]

That is very kind of you. Why not post some links, to help insure I am getting an unbiased view of the situation.

[The Stranger]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1631579' date='Dec 27 2008, 16.56']No, just commenting on patterns that tend to arise.

That is very kind of you. Why not post some links, to help insure I am getting an unbiased view of the situation.[/quote]

i don't approve of those patterns either, so i don't tend to follow them.

as per the policy, i get most of my information from arcane, mysterious things called 'books.' dunno what you'll find on the interwebs.

[Ashaman]

[quote name='The Brucer' post='1631577' date='Dec 27 2008, 21.54']strawman.

as per the growing Palestinian population, try reading up on Israeli planned parenthood policies and tell me what you find. I'll wait.[/quote]

sorry my google skils are not up to the task, can you provide whit a link if you know where to serach for the Israeli planned parenthood policies?
or a quick coment on what it is all about? from the title it i am not shure what it's all about and if it would give me a new angle on the israeli/palasitine conlict it would be interesting to read about it.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='The Brucer' post='1631583' date='Dec 27 2008, 16.00']i don't approve of those patterns either, so i don't tend to follow them.

as per the policy, i get most of my information from arcane, mysterious things called '[b]books[/b].' dunno what you'll find on the interwebs.[/quote]

Ah, you are a Samuel T. Cogley. Understood. :thumbsup:

ETA: If this is genocide, than the Israelis really suck at it.