Samalander Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='rANE' post='1631690' date='Dec 28 2008, 00.59']1) Israel has full control of all land and sea borders of Gaza and of the air space. Which they keep closed for most of the time.[/quote] 1) Incorrect. Gaza has a border with Egypt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andhaira Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Well the refugee's that currently live on Gaza actually used to live in Israel (it was called Palastine then ofcourse). Then Israel was forcibly formed (thanks in part to Evangilistical Fervor in bringing about the 'Rapture') and the lands original peaceful inhabitants kicked out by the Israelis. And then Israel over the years continued to mow them down with machine guns and missiles. (thats the entire reason Hamas was formed, because the defence less Palastenians had no standing army and until Hamas was formed no one really gave a fuck for their plight.) So anyway, I would really verify reports of so called mortar barrages from the Gaza strip to which Israel felt it had to respond to via missiles and tanks...but then again if israel and fox say so it must be true right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='rANE' post='1631690' date='Dec 28 2008, 09.29']A few other fun facts: 1) Israel has full control of all land and sea borders of Gaza and of the air space. Which they keep closed for most of the time. 2) They still enter at will. 3) They were elected alright, but Israel, US and PNA rejected the outcome and refused to deal with Hamas. The Hamas takeover of Gaza came more than a year later, after Fatah refused several times handing over the power. 4) See 1.[/quote] Gee so the border with Egypt no longer exists? amazing how that happened when did the war happen I must have taken a nap and missed it. The reason that they refused to deal with Hamas is that as a part of its organisations charter Hamas has a statement declaring as one of its objectives the destruction of Isreal. They asked them to remove this and they refused, so aid and diplomatic ties were severed since Hamas refused to back down from what was essentially a decleration of war. Yes there has been fault on both sides there is no denying that but rANE your post is so full of bias and BS that I can only wonder where you get you information from. Certainly it is not believable to anyone who has read any of the many discussions we have had on this subject. I am by no means what I would call knowlegable on this subject but I do know enough to call BS when it is so blatant. I am certain the more knowlegable people here can do far more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Samalander' post='1632011' date='Dec 28 2008, 07.05']1) Incorrect. Gaza has a border with Egypt.[/quote] Which is currently closed, due to political pressure on the Egyptians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Andhaira' post='1632027' date='Dec 28 2008, 14.59']1) Well the refugee's that currently live on Gaza actually used to live in Israel (it was called Palastine then ofcourse). 2) Then Israel was forcibly formed (thanks in part to Evangilistical Fervor in bringing about the 'Rapture') and the lands original peaceful inhabitants kicked out by the Israelis. 3) And then Israel over the years continued to mow them down with machine guns and missiles. (thats the entire reason Hamas was formed, because the defence less Palastenians had no standing army and until Hamas was formed no one really gave a fuck for their plight.) 4) So anyway, I would really verify reports of so called mortar barrages from the Gaza strip to which Israel felt it had to respond to via missiles and tanks...but then again if israel and fox say so it must be true right?[/quote] 1) The British mandate named this region "Palestine" because they needed a name to call it. There was no "Palestinian People". 2) Formed by huge global consensus and UN mandate, you mean (thanks in part to the world's guilt over their silence in the holocaust thing, when the jewish people did suffer from an actual genocide) Peaceful inhabitants? More like savage butchers. The UN offered them a land sharing deal. They refused and tried to kill us. 3) We only mow down militants with missiles (civilian casualties are accidental). The Palestinian people had the PLO to do their killing for them long before Hamas was formed. The world gives way too much fuck for their so called plight. There are plenty of people in Africa in more dire straits and with better claims to the world's attention. P.S defenseless is one word. 4) There is actually a nice little museum in Shderot with some of the shells salvaged from mortar barrages fired into Israel (not to mention the graves of the people who died from them...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote]The British mandate named this region "Palestine" because they needed a name to call it.[/quote] Actually the area was called Palestine before that. It was the accepted term for the place by europeans at the time. No different than "Syria" or "Iraq" in that regard. [quote]Formed by huge global consensus and UN mandate, you mean (thanks in part to the world's guilt over their silence in the holocaust thing, when the jewish people did suffer from an actual genocide) Peaceful inhabitants? More like savage butchers. The UN offered them a land sharing deal. They refused and tried to kill us.[/quote] Both sides refused various deals. And Israel started the war (by unilaterally declaring their sovereignity over disputed territories) [quote]We only mow down militants with missiles (civilian casualties are accidental).[/quote] There is actually a test for this. First degree of intention is if you want to do something. (Eg. you want to kill someone so you shoot him) Second degree of intention is if you want to do something else, but you are willing to do something illegal to get it. (You set fire to a boat in order to claim the insurance, you don't *want* to set fire to the boat but it's something you're iwlling to do to get something else) Third degree of intention is if you are doing something, you KNOW that what you are doing has a chance of harming someone, but you do it anyway. (for instance, you're running from the police and throw of a few shots without aiming to get them to slow down, you're not AIMING at them, and you don't want to kill them but the fact thatt here is a chance of you hitting them and you're still shooting means that it counts as intentional if you happen to kill someone) Israel's conduct clearly falls under third degree of intention: Sure, you don't *want* to kill civilians, but the fact that you can with reasonable certainity know that they'll die means that your killing of them is intentional. [quote]There are plenty of people in Africa in more dire straits and with better claims to the world's attention.[/quote] True, for what it is worth, but completely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1632056' date='Dec 28 2008, 15.43']Actually the area was called Palestine before that. It was the accepted term for the place by europeans at the time. No different than "Syria" or "Iraq" in that regard.[/quote] This from Wikipedia : "'Palestine' ( Greek: Παλαιστίνη; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ×¤×œ×©×ª×™× ×”â€Ž Palestina; Arabic: Ùلسطين‎ Filasá¹Ä«n, Falasá¹Ä«n, Filisá¹Ä«n ) is a Latinized name given to the region of the Iudaea Province by the Roman emperor Hadrian[5][6] following the crushing Bar Kochba's revolt in 132-135[7] in an attempt to suppress Jewish national feelings". So, in short, that was an area inhabited by jews, with a jewish name, that got changed into some other[b] made up name[/b], by the romans, [b]to erase [/b] the historical jewish affilation of the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarysTheSpider Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Deluge' post='1632040' date='Dec 28 2008, 13.29']Which is currently closed, due to political pressure on the Egyptians.[/quote] I think it's just been opened actually, but anyway, are you saying the Israelis are the ones putting the pressure on? I thought it far more likely that Egypt didn't want to open the border permanantly because then Israel (and the people of Egypt) would consider the Gaza Strip's humanitarian needs Egypt's responsibilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote]So, in short, that was an area inhabited by jews, with a jewish name, that got changed into some other made up name, by the romans, to erase the historical jewish affilation of the region.[/quote] Err, yes? What has that got to do with anything? You said it was the brits who named the place. It wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1632056' date='Dec 28 2008, 15.43']Both sides refused various deals. And Israel started the war (by unilaterally declaring their sovereignity over disputed territories)[/quote] Again, from Wikipedia (and not some "Zionist" history book) : "The War commenced on the termination of the Mandate on 15 May 1948 following a previous phase of war of 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine, [b]commenced in Arab rejection of the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine [/b](UN General Assembly Resolution 181) that would have created an Arab state and a Jewish state". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='VarysTheSpider' post='1632066' date='Dec 28 2008, 08.59']I think it's just been opened actually, but anyway, are you saying the Israelis are the ones putting the pressure on? I thought it far more likely that Egypt didn't want to open the border permanantly because then Israel (and the people of Egypt) would consider the Gaza Strip's humanitarian needs Egypt's responsibilty.[/quote] I'm not entirely sure what exactly is going on there, but yeah, I've heard that part of the reason is that Egypt is afraid that Israel is going to try and hand off responsibility for Gaza to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote]Again, from Wikipedia (and not some "Zionist" history book)[/quote] Err... You're using Wikipedia as a reliable history source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1632056' date='Dec 28 2008, 15.43']Third degree of intention is if you are doing something, you KNOW that what you are doing has a chance of harming someone, but you do it anyway.[/quote] This actually applies to doctors performing surgery or even dispensing medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Deluge' post='1632071' date='Dec 28 2008, 16.05']I'm not entirely sure what exactly is going on there, but yeah, I've heard that part of the reason is that Egypt is afraid that Israel is going to try and hand off responsibility for Gaza to them.[/quote] And where is it written it should be ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote]This actually applies to doctors performing surgery or even dispensing medicine.[/quote] Doctors are actually legally given dispensation: A lot of shit they do would be illegal for you or me to try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Samalander' post='1632080' date='Dec 28 2008, 15.09']And where is it written it should be ours?[/quote] The Camp David accords, when Egypt gave it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1632075' date='Dec 28 2008, 16.06']Err... You're using Wikipedia as a reliable history source?[/quote] Everyone keeps saying that Wikipedia is at least as reliable as conventional encyclopedias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Samalander' post='1632080' date='Dec 28 2008, 09.09']And where is it written it should be ours?[/quote] I never said it was. I honestly don't particularly believe they should be anyone's "responsibility", and should rather have their own state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarysTheSpider Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Deluge' post='1632071' date='Dec 28 2008, 14.05']I'm not entirely sure what exactly is going on there[/quote] Apparantly the border's been open, the wounded aren't coming through and Egypt's blaming Hamas for it ... I guess more details will come out later, the news report I read earlier was pretty scatty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1632082' date='Dec 28 2008, 16.10']The Camp David accords, when Egypt gave it up?[/quote] Yeah.. but they want to be independent now, don't they? And we certainly don't have to keep an open border with an enemy entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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