Zoë Sumra Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 It's become noticeable that people are wanting to discuss the Israeli offensive in Gaza in the thread that was originally started so we could all sympathise with Pita for being in the line of fire from Lebanon. I therefore feel it would be appropriate to discuss general issues in a new thread (as the old one is now closed), in order a) to show some solidarity with a fellow boarder, and b) so that that thread won't get closed for being off-topic. Also c) - a lot of people are telling other people to shut down their opinions in that thread, for good reasons due to its original topic. I hope that this won't happen in this thread. To get us going: [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun"]Another report stating that Israel shelled a house to which it had specifically directed evacuees[/url]. I would also be very interested to learn Israel's rationale for firing on a UN aid convoy and killing people. I understand that Hamas allegedly uses public buildings as bases on a regular basis, but I would really query any claim that they did so with an official UN convoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Completely useless cockwaving and posturing from both sides with an awful cost in human lives, in my opinion. I'd be ever so happy if peace could be reached between Israel and the Palestine people, but it seems like not enough people are really interested in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morekyyn Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 The Israelis and Palestinians have to start looking at each other as fellow human beings, for peace to be possible, and they need(on both sides) to be able to forgive and move on. For this to be possible they need leaders of Nelson Mandela's caliber, and those are hard to find. Most people have an opinion on who is to blame(or at least who is to blame mostly), but that is really pointless, and contraproductive. Perhaps one should begin to ask a few questions(and hopefully get some answers). 1. Can Israelis and Palestinians live side by side and share the land? 2. If not, what do each people need as an absolute minimum in terms of natural resources and land mass to be able to stand on their own? 3. If peace was guaranteed, would those groups that now aid each side with military equipment or funds be willing to keep on aiding in the same quantity/worth as before but with non-military equipment? 4. Can we get at third party to move in and defacto take on the responsibility of protecting each group from the other with the possibility for the offended group to get substantial compensation if the third party fail? Just a few ideas that really should't provoke anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [url="http://www.spiegel.de/media/0,4906,19661,00.pdf"]UN report on the current situation in Gaza (Jan. 2009).[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashaman Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 any one have some thoguht's about different suport demonstration that have occoured in the country you live? where i live i have not heard about so much demonstrations and gaterings that are condeming the voilence on both sides since the begining of the iraq war. we even had some angry minority youghts doing some mayhem yester day, there where even police out whit shields in the streats and they allso used teargass. but this 1 where the only that where not peasfull that day, there where two major ones on different location whit out any major incidents. there will proberly be a nother peace protest in my town this weekend, so il drag my as down there and wave a torch or something. any way, have the happenings in the middle east had some effect like this where you live, and if so in what magnitude would you say they are, as i said i would compare the ones in norway to the ones before the iraq war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 One thing that I don't understand is why Israel does not allow innocent civilians to leave Gaza while their operations are going on. They allowed people that are lucky enough to have citizenship from another country to leave, but that's only a tiny fraction of Gaza's overall population. I understand if they are concerned about militants slipping out among the general civilian population, but the same argument could be raised about Israel giving advance warning about an area being targeted for bombing, yet Israel still gives advance warning (thankfully!). Also, allowing a few militants to slip out among the civilians would be a small price to pay to allow innocents to escape the current bombardment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashaman Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 i dont know if people have seen this yet, but this is a few days old report on how the situation are down there, told by on of the few western doc on the gaza strip. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a33spmdor0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a33spmdor0[/url] this kinda gives you a picture how the palastinians situation are down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='Ser Reptitious' post='1642693' date='Jan 9 2009, 10.53']One thing that I don't understand is why Israel does not allow innocent civilians to leave Gaza while their operations are going on. They allowed people that are lucky enough to have citizenship from another country to leave, but that's only a tiny fraction of Gaza's overall population.[/quote] There's only one non-Israeli land border with Gaza and that country (Egypt) doesn't want Gazans in there either, so they keep it more or less closed to everyone but casualties. That leaves the sea and I'm wondering whose gonna pick them up on their boats and where are they gonna take them? There's not a country in the region that wants to absorb a bunch of refugees or is really willing to. So where exactly are they gonna go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1642705' date='Jan 9 2009, 10.04']There's only one non-Israeli land border with Gaza and that country (Egypt) doesn't want Gazans in there either, so they keep it more or less closed to everyone but casualties. That leaves the sea and I'm wondering whose gonna pick them up on their boats and where are they gonna take them? There's not a country in the region that wants to absorb a bunch of refugees or is really willing to. So where exactly are they gonna go?[/quote] Good point, but I think Israel needs to announce to the world that innocent Gazan civilians are allowed to leave, if someone is willing to take them. That at least would put the onus on countries such as Egypt and others. Perhaps Israel could even state that it would be willing to provide passage to such civilians to move over to the West Bank until the bombardment stops. Israel could even work together with the PA to set up temporary refugee camps where food and medical aid is readily provided. Such a move would go a long way towards demonstrating to sceptics that Israel really [i]does[/i] care about protecting innocent civilians to the best extent possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='Ser Reptitious' post='1642719' date='Jan 9 2009, 11.13']Perhaps Israel could even state that it would be willing to provide passage to such civilians to move over to the West Bank until the bombardment stops. Israel could even work together with the PA to set up temporary refugee camps where food and medical aid is readily provided. Such a move would go a long way towards demonstrating to sceptics that Israel really [i]does[/i] care about protecting innocent civilians to the best extent possible.[/quote] Eh? Does the West Bank really even want them? Are they in a position to take care of them even with Israeli and other outside assistance? And is it really in anyone's interests to risk radical Hamas forces infiltrating the West Bank and turning that region into a threat that must be dealt with as well? Or potentially spawning a good, ole fashioned civil war again like they had a few years back? The West Bank just crushed their Hamas types not too long back, they won't be eager to even risk getting a bunch more. There isn't really a solution to the few million people in Gaza outside of staying put. The last time a bunch of them left the entire population of the Sinai (they busted through the border there) was complaining about Palestinians taking their food, goods and woman-folk (the usual refrain). Noone wants them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellis Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 The problem is, Ser Rep, once you leave, where is the guarantee that you'll be allowed to return? There are already more people who identify as Palestinian outside of the area than in it. In 1948, a lot of people fled due to violence, and as you know, their right to return is a thorny issue. I suspect a lot of people wouldn't leave for that reason. (I would, but then, I value my life over feelings of nationalism, etc). Besides, I suspect it's also hard to see a material difference between saying "we're going to bomb this place to bits but you can leave by this one open gate if you like and are carrying no weapons" and "we're going to forcibly eject you from this place by bombing it to bits". Seriously, I sympathized with the Isrealis during the first few days of this, but I don't know what their endgame is anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='Bellis' post='1642733' date='Jan 9 2009, 19.23']Seriously, I sympathized with the Isrealis during the first few days of this, but I don't know what their endgame is anymore.[/quote] Thorny issue. We need a cease-fire that meets our terms. Hamas is not yet at a point it has to accept. The organization's leadership, save one, is unscathed by this conflict, and so has no onus to comply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1642738' date='Jan 9 2009, 11.31']Thorny issue. We need a cease-fire that meets our terms. Hamas is not yet at a point it has to accept. The organization's leadership, save one, is unscathed by this conflict, and so has no onus to comply.[/quote] What would those terms be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artas Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote]Completely useless cockwaving and posturing from both sides with an awful cost in human lives, in my opinion. I'd be ever so happy if peace could be reached between Israel and the Palestine people, but it seems like not enough people are really interested in this.[/quote] This. *nods* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1642741' date='Jan 9 2009, 19.32']What would those terms be?[/quote] I'm no expert, but some things along the lines of : a. No more smuggling of rockets into Gaza. b. No more Iranian "consultants" inside Gaza. c. No more shooting rockets into Israel. Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1642760' date='Jan 9 2009, 12.49']I'm no expert, but some things along the lines of : a. No more smuggling of rockets into Gaza. b. No more Iranian "consultants" inside Gaza. c. No more shooting rockets into Israel. Etc.[/quote] Maybe they'd be more willing to agree to those terms if Israel would stop treating Gaza like a ghetto. 80% of these people live below the poverty line, malnutrition is rampant, and most of the god damned rockets that Israel cites as the "truce-breaking" came from Islamic Jihad in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1642732' date='Jan 9 2009, 10.22']Eh? Does the West Bank really even want them? Are they in a position to take care of them even with Israeli and other outside assistance? And is it really in anyone's interests to risk radical Hamas forces infiltrating the West Bank and turning that region into a threat that must be dealt with as well? Or potentially spawning a good, ole fashioned civil war again like they had a few years back? The West Bank just crushed their Hamas types not too long back, they won't be eager to even risk getting a bunch more.[/quote] Well, you could start by transferring women and children first. That would cut down on the chances of Hamas fighters being among them. I concede it gets a bit trickier with adult men. [quote]There isn't really a solution to the few million people in Gaza outside of staying put. The last time a bunch of them left the entire population of the Sinai (they busted through the border there) was complaining about Palestinians taking their food, goods and woman-folk (the usual refrain). Noone wants them.[/quote] There are certainly practical difficulties. All I'm saying is that it would be in Israel's interest to show a bit more sincerity when it comes to trying to find a solution to get innocent civilians out of harms way. I'm inclined to think that the current operation may very well backfire on Israel in the long run, since it will likely create a ready pool of angry young men (and women as well, for that matter) that Hamas and other militant groups will be able to draw new recruits from. Given this, Israel should make a bit more of an effort to show that it really does care about innocent civilians, even while trying to deal with Hamas. [quote name='Bellis']The problem is, Ser Rep, once you leave, where is the guarantee that you'll be allowed to return? There are already more people who identify as Palestinian outside of the area than in it. In 1948, a lot of people fled due to violence, and as you know, their right to return is a thorny issue. I suspect a lot of people wouldn't leave for that reason. (I would, but then, I value my life over feelings of nationalism, etc).[/quote] Bellis, Good point. I hadn't thought about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Well the UN SC passed a resolution calling for a ceasefire that both sides quickly dismissed. Unfortunately the US abstained from the vote because their opinion carries more weight in the area than any other nation or nations. I expect it'll be another while before any truce can be agreed upon and it's saddening to think that it will be the innocents who pay the highest price in this fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='scrahan' post='1642767' date='Jan 9 2009, 10.56']Maybe they'd be more willing to agree to those terms if Israel would stop treating Gaza like a ghetto. 80% of these people live below the poverty line, malnutrition is rampant, and most of the god damned rockets that Israel cites as the "truce-breaking" came from Islamic Jihad in the first place.[/quote] I've always figured that perhaps Israel should try a bit of goodwill when it comes to Gaza, rather than just using force. The basic rationale is this: if the average Palestinian living in Gaza is quite well off, and especially if he realizes that Israel has played a significant part in helping him getting there, he would likely be much more disinclined to support radical groups and the firing of rockets. How to accomplish this? Well, how about Israel willing to lend some financial support (such as low or no interest loans) in building up Palestinian businesses in Gaza? How about Israel building up Gaza's infrastructure, including re-opening the seaport and airport, which would help commerce? How about even helping to promote Gaza as a tourist destination? (I realize that last one sounds really far-fetched at the moment, but Gaza does have a beautiful beach stretch along the mediterraean, for one, and I'm sure it's climate would attract tourists as well, once security is no longer an issue!) I realize that these actions will not eliminate militants by themselves, but it would undercut their support among the general population. Without such support, it would be much tougher for them to operate and much easier for Israel to hunt them down (with likely colaboration from Palestinian civilians that do not want to jeopardize their new-found wealth and stability). These things could obviously not be accomplished overnight and might take years or decades to accomplish, but after 60 years of trying the same failed methods to subdue the militants, perhaps it's time for a new approach! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 According to that UN report more Israelis have actually died due to friendly fire than due to palestinian violence since the attack? I find that sadly ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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