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Israel in Gaza - General Thread II


Zoë Sumra

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Moving this discussion out of the cyclical backpatting and vitriolic spitting,

What d'ya all think about the various diplomatic cease fire initiatives made?

There's the French one basically calling for two days ceasefire rest and then hoping for the best

There's the UN declaration which doesn't seem to amount to much but which the Arabs see as diplomatic victory and the Israeli as dangerous failure of their diplomats and foreign affairs office.

The most serious one seems the Egyptian one.

Would the UN declaration make both sides fight longer instead of reaching an agreement, the Hamas hoping to end the conflict without having to give up anything and The Israeli showing that they won't be swayed by outsiders?

Who will call the shots in the end on the Hamas' side? The Syrian Hamas leadership, the Gazan military leadership or the elected Gazan representatives?

And how does Obama's upcoming start of term affect the equation? Would Hamas continue to fight hoping the Obama administration would be friendlier to it? Would Israel fearing the same decide to start the 'third phase' which is basically completely conquering Gaza and then perhaps passing it to Egypt/PLO?
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[quote name='Ser Wolf King' post='1645410' date='Jan 12 2009, 08.30']While Zionism is a radical nationalistic attitude.[/quote]
Actually that definition of Zionism is a bit like the definition of "feminism" as radical men-hating bitches.

Zionism is the ideology of supporting the existence of Israel and Israel's right to be a country.
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1) I would suggest Zionism is a binary condition. That is, you either are a zionist or you're not. I don't really get the whole "radical zionist" people try to use as a slur on this thread.
2) People wanted me to address the UN school shooting : Gee fellas, I was mistaken. Instead of taking position inside the school and shooting at Israeli soldiers, the Hamas militants took position right next to the school and fired on Israeli soldiers. How could we have been so wrong?
3) I just heard on television : Those so calles phospherous bombs are just high end flares.
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[quote name='Werthead' post='1644230' date='Jan 10 2009, 21.57']So the Palestinians would prefer that the Israelis had remained in Gaza?

Gotcha.

:unsure:[/quote]
Good idea.
Maybe IDF would be a little more careful if they were shooting people instead of Palestinians.
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[quote name='Samalander' post='1645654' date='Jan 12 2009, 09.31']1) I would suggest Zionism is a binary condition. That is, you either are a zionist or you're not. I don't really get the whole "radical zionist" people try to use as a slur on this thread.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure its just Pax making shit up. Have you ever been called an Israelite before?

ETA: Anyone see that Waltz With Bashir won the GG. I wonder what was said in the acceptance speech.

ETA2: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kQNO_ZAVAU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kQNO_ZAVAU[/url]
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[quote name='G'Kar' post='1645809' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.33']I'm pretty sure its just Pax making shit up. Have you ever been called an Israelite before?[/quote]

In Hebrew there's no distinction between 'Irsaelis' and "Israelites', so I wouldn't know.
In the bible it's 'Bnei Israel' which means 'Sons of Israel' which as we all know is Jacob.
So where does Israelites come from anyway?

[quote]ETA: Anyone see that Waltz With Bashir won the GG. I wonder what was said in the acceptance speech.[/quote]
I really need to go see that one. It is astonishing to see how Israel film industry has improved in the last five years.
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[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1645072' date='Jan 12 2009, 03.44']The sea blockade, the utter refusal to talk to Hamas, the chronology of the planning leading to the current war and the intensification of attacks on the Gaza Strip make it clear that Israel has been planning to steal these gas reserve for awhile now.[/quote]

Hehe, Gaza is not a country, therefore it doesn't have territorial waters... (well, I admit that I'm not 100% sure about this claim. Any international law expert wishes to clarify?)
Those gas reserves were practically given to the Palestinians for free by Barak in 2000.
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[quote name='The Green Fish' post='1645868' date='Jan 12 2009, 09.20']Hehe, Gaza is not a country, therefore it [b]doesn't have territorial waters[/b]... (well, I admit that I'm not 100% sure about this claim. Any international law expert wishes to clarify?)
Those gas reserves were [b]practically given[/b] to the Palestinians for free by Barak in 2000.[/quote]

Lol, how easy the justification for theft are manufactured.
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[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1645872' date='Jan 12 2009, 20.23']Lol, how easy the justification for theft are manufactured.[/quote]

LOL? Wow, this is a blunt escalation in laughing. So take this:

ROFL!! This is what I was told or read one. Couldn't find any source in the net, since when you type 'Gaza Gas Reserves' in Google, you get like a billion dubious conspiracy sites like the ones you love to cite.

EHK,

A friend of mine works in the "Ministry of Propaganda" (:P), and he claims that what was originally published by the IDF is that Hamas used UNRA school for launching sites as a general rule, not that it did so in that specific incident.
Splitting hairs, I know, but he insists it wasn't an outright lie.
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[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1645454' date='Jan 12 2009, 01.27']What d'ya all think about the various diplomatic cease fire initiatives made?

And how does Obama's upcoming start of term affect the equation? Would Hamas continue to fight hoping the Obama administration would be friendlier to it? Would Israel fearing the same decide to start the 'third phase' which is basically completely conquering Gaza and then perhaps passing it to Egypt/PLO?[/quote]

There seem to be an international consensus that there must be an immediately cease-fire and the blockade of Gaza be lifted. However, the US is the only country that could force Israel to accept these terms, and Bush have thrown all that is left of his terms into prolonging the massacre by backing Israel. The new Obama administration might reverse this policy in less than ten days ............... so what we'll see in the next week or so will be [b]very intense[/b] urban combat as Hamas tries to survive and preserve its military strength against the invaders, and the IDF trying to kill as Hamas militants as possible so that Israel could save face when it's forced to accept a cease fire.
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[quote name='The Green Fish' post='1645883' date='Jan 12 2009, 09.31']LOL? Wow, this is a blunt escalation in laughing. So take this:

ROFL!! This is what I was told or read one. Couldn't find any source in the net, since when you type 'Gaza Gas Reserves' in Google, you get like a billion dubious conspiracy sites like the ones you love to cite.[/quote]

Lol, so now you're resorting to questioning the existence of these offshore gas fields? Very savvy!

[quote]A friend of mine works in the "Ministry of Propaganda" (:P), and he claims that what was originally published by the IDF is that Hamas used UNRA school for launching sites as a general rule, not that it did so in that specific incident.
Splitting hairs, I know, but he insists it wasn't an outright lie.[/quote]

A lying liar that lies ........... is your friend salamander perhaps?
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Of course Hamas intends for their own civilians to die, the death of their own people is an objective, as a means to destroying Israel. They state this [url="http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1710.htm"]explicitly[/url].

[quote][The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."[/quote]

It doesn't get any more depraved. Hamas wants their own citizens to die, their actions are intended to ensure it happens, and Israel gets the blame. It's surreal.

Hamas needs to be defeated, a cease fire will only allow them to rearm and just kick the can of bloodshed further down the road.
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The standard of debate in this thread has not improved, despite several mod warnings. It's an endless round of accusation and counter-accusation, bickering and snark. It offers nothing and it's therefore being closed.
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