Israel in Gaza - General Thread II

[CelticBrennus]

A couple things come to mind in regards to the recent offensive.

One is that the timing of the Israeli offensive is perfect, the only nation that could possibly stop Israel is the US, and given the state of Presidential politics, the US isnt going to do a whole hell of a lot. So, Israel is going to have a great chance to smash Hamas for a couple weeks or so, kill a bunch of fighters, kill some leaders, and set them back a few years or so.

Two is that this seems like this is not going to solve anything at all. Sure, Hamas is going to emerge slightly weaker, but it will rebuild. There are still a whole lot of young men living in really shitty conditions who see their families live in horrific poverty, occasionally seeing a bunch of people get blown to bits and its really easy for them to blame Israel for it. Other countries that find it politically expedient will continue to send "advisors" and supplies to Hamas, so that will not change.

Third, Hamas is no Hizbollah. Hamas is a perfect whipping boy for Israel - they dont really pose any real threat, and cant really fight back or anything. So blowing the crap out of a bunch of yahoo's with AK's is a great way to rebuild confidence after getting embarrassed by Hizbollah.

[Rockroi]

[quote]Third, Hamas is no Hizbollah. Hamas is a perfect whipping boy for Israel - they dont really pose any real threat, and cant really fight back or anything. So blowing the crap out of a bunch of yahoo's with AK's is a great way to rebuild confidence after getting embarrassed by Hizbollah.[/quote]

I don't think this is a part of the IDF's MO at all. Israel is chomping at the bit to get another shot at Hizbollah after the missed oppertunity in 2006. Hizbollah basically claims "victory" in that war for the solitary fact that it did not get utterly anihilated. Hizbollah wants nothing more to do with Israel, though. When reports of rocket attacks in northern Israel, Hizbollah could not deny their involvment fast enough. Even with the prospect of Israel engaged in the South, Hizbollah cannot afford a war with Israel at any level; their leadership wnating no part of another "success" like the 2006 war.

[Tsoert]

Copied and pasted from the "support innocents/board members being bombed by idiots/patriots/gung ho retaliationists" to here where it is more appropriate prehaps


Genuine question for the Israeli's of the board - is this mass bombing and ground force invasion the only way you could have retaliated? I understand that there was a need to retaliate, after all years of rockets fired into your country is too much to sit back and let happen, but surely with the resources you have you could do something else? I thought the Mossad (the Israeli secret service right) was pretty top class? Would not a round of assassinations do the trick? All this ground invasion is doing is killing innocents and leading a generation of people towards anti-Israelism and terrorist sympathising surely?

[Maltaran]

[quote name='Morekyyn' post='1642622' date='Jan 9 2009, 15.38']For this to be possible they need leaders of Nelson Mandela's caliber, and those are hard to find.[/quote]

Yitzhak Rabin might have been, but he got shot (by a crazy Israeli) before he had the chance to prove it.

[Maltaran]

[quote name='Morekyyn' post='1642622' date='Jan 9 2009, 15.38']For this to be possible they need leaders of Nelson Mandela's caliber, and those are hard to find.[/quote]

Yitzhak Rabin might have been, but he got shot (by a crazy Israeli) before he had the chance to prove it.

[CelticBrennus]

[quote]Hizbollah basically claims "victory" in that war for the solitary fact that it did not get utterly anihilated.[/quote]

Ummm...yeah. The supposed most powerful military in the world pound for pound, couldnt beat a bunch of guys with RPG's hiding in bunkers.

My point about their success is that they didnt get wiped out. They took on the strongest military force in the Middle East that had total air superiority, a massive technological advantage, survived, inflicted about 650 IDF casulties (117 dead), and fired rockets with impunity, and the Israeli offensive ended in a stalemate at best. The point is that Israel failed to accomplish its goals in a huge way, while Hizbollah accomplished theirs.

[quote]Hizbollah wants nothing more to do with Israel, though. When reports of rocket attacks in northern Israel, Hizbollah could not deny their involvment fast enough.[/quote]

Of course, Hizbollah's got a good thing going on now. They have tons of bragging rights, and are part of the governance of Lebanon. Why would they mess that up?

[Ashaman]

i heard that the vaticane have come whit an statement on the situation. any one got a link on it?

Edit:
got it ;)
[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5473588.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle5473588.ece[/url]

[quote](snip)a prominent cardinal said that Gazans were living in a “big concentration camp”.

In his annual speech to diplomats in the Vatican the Pope sought to damp down the dispute. He said that the war was “provoking immense damage and suffering for the civilian populations” in Gaza and Israel. He urged “the rejection of hatred, acts of provocation and the use of arms” and added: “Violence, wherever it comes from and whatever form it takes, must be firmly condemned. The military solution is never an option,” he said.

His remarks came amid outrage from Israelis over a statement by Cardinal Renato Martino, the head of the Vatican Council for Justice and Peace and a former Holy See envoy to the United Nations, who compared Gaza to a concentration camp. The cardinal criticised Israel for killing civilians who had taken shelter at a UNrun school in Gaza.[/quote]

[snake]

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7817019.stm"]Here's a link.[/url]

Needless to say the Israeli's were quite pissed at the statement and the Vatican is trying to backtrack a little I think.

[the silent speaker]

Sir Rep: When Israel left Gaza, they left behind a set of fully stocked greenhouses (donated by international money, I believe) that were intended to become the cornerstone of a new Gaza economy. Within days those greenhouses were sacked and gutted. "Making the average Palestinian in Gaza well-off" is much easier said than done, even if Hamas doesn't directly act to prevent this. Which they would, for exactly the same reasons you're suggesting it be done in the first place. (This would be really really easy for them to do without making it look to any particullar man on the street like they were sabotaging him.)

Re US abstention: I saw a quote from Condi Rice that they support the UN resolution but didn't want to interfere with Egyptian cease-fire efforts.

Tsoert: No, "a round of assassinations" would not do the trick. Firstly, you can't very well assassinate hundreds of people in covert ops. Second, the early aerial attack especially has all the earmarks of targeting particular sites. Note that 225 people were killed on the first day -- nearly all of them Hamas people -- as many as over the course of the entire next week. That to me says that Israel was targeting weapons storage and manufacture and similar: places that Hamas knew damn well why those particular spots got hit, places that [i]Hamas [/i]made sure no one without an ID went in because they didn't want some fumblefingers wrecking their work, and as soon as they saw those places get hit, they raced to put all comparable sites on a skeleton crew to minimize their own losses.
[quote]All this ground invasion is doing is ... leading a generation of people towards anti-Israelism and terrorist sympathising surely?[/quote]
Given that they already believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the blood libel in stupefyingly high numbers, I don't know how far toward anti-semitism they still need to be led.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Maltaran' post='1642869' date='Jan 9 2009, 21.15']Yitzhak Rabin might have been, but he got shot (by a crazy Israeli) before he had the chance to prove it.[/quote]
He's not crazy. Evil, sure. Not crazy.

[Shryke]

[quote name='snake' post='1642898' date='Jan 9 2009, 14.36'][url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7817019.stm"]Here's a link.[/url]

Needless to say the Israeli's were quite pissed at the statement and the Vatican is trying to backtrack a little I think.[/quote]

I hope they don't backtrack, the statement was pretty much dead-on.


[quote]Given that they already believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the blood libel in stupefyingly high numbers, I don't know how far toward anti-semitism they still need to be led.[/quote]

Well, you know, you might have had a shot at the younger generation before now.

[Samalander]

[quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1642881' date='Jan 9 2009, 21.24']Ummm...yeah. The supposed most powerful military in the world pound for pound, couldnt beat a bunch of guys with RPG's hiding in bunkers.[/quote]
Thing of Hizbullah as "a buch of guys with RPG's hiding in bunkers" is wrong because:
1. Hizbollah is the de facto extention of the Iranian army. They got [u]everything[/u] from them - money, supplies, training, equipment, intelligence on the IDF gathered by Iran, and more. Anything short of sending Iranian troops to fight for them, Iran has done.
2. I don't think Hizbullah guys are that into role playing games.

[sToNED_CAT]

[quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1642881' date='Jan 9 2009, 15.24']Of course, Hizbollah's got a good thing going on now. They have tons of bragging rights, and are part of the governance of Lebanon. Why would they mess that up?[/quote]

So you are basically saying that they are afraid. That means Israelis attack in 2006 acomplished it's goal after all - Hezbollah is not the threat to Israel (at least for a while).

[quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1642806' date='Jan 9 2009, 14.33']Sure, Hamas is going to emerge slightly weaker, but it will rebuild.[/quote]

I'm not sure it will happen, if Israel breaks Hamas militarily and then gives Gaza back to Fatah. Fatah wants revenge, after many of them were killed during conflict with Hamas and I don't think they'll allow Hamas to rebuild.

[Samalander]

Fatah can't appear to take control of Gaza on Israeli spears.

[Shryke]

You'd be surprised Anguy. Support for Hamas and anti-Israeli sentiments are surging in the West Bank.

[url="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-west-bank-were-all-hamas-now--supporters-of-fatah-unite-behind-enemy-1242606.html"]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/mi...my-1242606.html[/url]

Strange that.

[quote name='Samalander' post='1642925' date='Jan 9 2009, 14.48']It's wrong to think of them that way, because :
1) Hizbullah is a De facto extention of the Iranian army. They got everything from them : money, training, supplies, intel on Israel that Iran has gathered and more. Short of sending Iranian troops to fight for them, Iran has done everything for them.[/quote]

I guess the War on Terror is the War on a rebel faction of the US army then. Hehehe.

[CelticBrennus]

[quote]Thing of Hizbullah as "a buch of guys with RPG's hiding in bunkers" is wrong because:[/quote]

Clearly, they are more then that, also a political party and social services organization.

[quote]1. Hizbollah is the de facto extention of the Iranian army. They got everything from them - money, supplies, training, equipment, intelligence on the IDF gathered by Iran, and more. Anything short of sending Iranian troops to fight for them, Iran has done.[/quote]

If that is so, then it goes from being a total and complete humiliation to merely a total humiliation

[quote]So you are basically saying that they are afraid. That means Israelis attack in 2006 acomplished it's goal after all - Hezbollah is not the threat to Israel (at least for a while).[/quote]

I suppose you could phrase it like that, but if so, thats a pretty damn pyrrhic victory. And by following that line of thinking, it means Israel should do something to make Gazans have more to lose by continuing to fight then by stopping the fighting.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1642925' date='Jan 9 2009, 13.48']It's wrong to think of them that way, because :
1) Hizbullah is a De facto extention of the Iranian army. They got everything from them : money, training, supplies, intel on Israel that Iran has gathered and more. Short of sending Iranian troops to fight for them, Iran has done everything for them.
2) I don't thing shiite extremists are that into role playing games.[/quote]

So does this make the IDF a de facto extension of the US military?

[shadowbinding shoe]

The point was that Hizballa is an army. They are considered by far the best Arab military in the world. They are also very well equipped with weapons by Syria and Iran. It's the men that compose an army that determine its quality more than the equipment they have (though that too is important of course.)

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='Ser Reptitious' post='1642791' date='Jan 9 2009, 20.21']I've always figured that perhaps Israel should try a bit of goodwill when it comes to Gaza, rather than just using force.

The basic rationale is this: if the average Palestinian living in Gaza is quite well off, and especially if he realizes that Israel has played a significant part in helping him getting there, he would likely be much more disinclined to support radical groups and the firing of rockets.[/quote]

Like say, letting them work in Israel and buying their agricultural produce? That was what happened from 1967 until the terror attacks got to the point where Israel considered this to be too dangerous and started hiring foreign workers instead.

[quote]How to accomplish this? Well, how about Israel willing to lend some financial support (such as low or no interest loans) in building up Palestinian businesses in Gaza? How about Israel building up Gaza's infrastructure, including re-opening the seaport and airport, which would help commerce? How about even helping to promote Gaza as a tourist destination? (I realize that last one sounds really far-fetched at the moment, but Gaza does have a beautiful beach stretch along the mediterraean, for one, and I'm sure it's climate would attract tourists as well, once security is no longer an issue!)[/quote]

Israel did provide things to Gaza, even money for some reason, but it was all channeled through Hamas channels in the Gaza strip. Hamas as the sole ruler in there controlled who gets what and made sure everyone knew they owed it to them.

[quote]I realize that these actions will not eliminate militants by themselves, but it would undercut their support among the general population. Without such support, it would be much tougher for them to operate and much easier for Israel to hunt them down (with likely colaboration from Palestinian civilians that do not want to jeopardize their new-found wealth and stability).[/quote]

None of these things would be possible as long as the Hamas militants are in control of Gaza.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Hello all.
Lyana, EHK: I maintain that if you seek to assign blame, the lions share should be to the Palestineans. Does Israel kill civilians? YES, not intentionally. Do Palestineans kill civilians? YES, intentionally...and that is a HUGE difference.

It is the difference between murder and accidental homicide. The INTENT here is different, and THAT is why Israel gets little to no blame, and Palestineans get virtually ALL of it.

Lyana you seem upset that I dont have sympathy for the dying. Why should I, when they seem to rush towards their death with open arms, embracing the idea of jihad? It would be like pitying a child for getting a toy he so very much desired.

Dont believe me? OK. Watch these YouTube links. See Palestinean children joyously singing about the joys of being a little suicide bomber. So, NO, I have NO sympathy when they get exactly what they want. I have outrage. I have anger that a people would abuse and misuse their own children so.

Here is a Palestinian "mother" sending her son off to kill: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytX-DI_jwwI&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytX-DI_jwwI...feature=related[/url]

Here is a Palestinean "wife" who recieved the news of her husbands suicide death terrorist attack with "cries of joy" [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTNADjMc0x0&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTNADjMc0x0...feature=related[/url]

Here is a cute little Palestinean girl. See her interview, and see her hate: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU...feature=related[/url]

Here are two YouTube links of children and childrens TV, Palestinean style:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAHHjfUxERY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAHHjfUxERY[/url] and
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBuiSP8X6E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBuiSP8X6E[/url]

Lyana, and my analogy of airport security stands. Palestineans have to be screened prior to leaving the Gaza or other areas they haunt BECAUSE they wish to blow things up. Because they are a culture of death, destruction. Israel MUST for her safety maintain such restrictions in the face of a people who are genocidally committed to Israel and Jewish destruction.

It is a Jewish saying that he who saves a life, it is as if he saved the world. The Palestinean corollary appears to be he who KILLS a life, gains the world.

Iceman, you believe Israel hasnt done enough to keep civilians out of harms way. Israel warns them, by leafletting. Israel warns them exactly what consequences acts will have. They are going in on a ground attack instead of pummeling from the air to avoid civilian casualities. What more do you wish, an engraved invitation to each Palestinean?

Rockroi: these words of yours "So, please take this with a grain of salt: I hope when your grandchildren are running around you, you can say to them the time you were scared by the shelling that happened in the early days of 2009; that it was one of the last times anything like that happened, and thankfully, in your old age, you will say to your children's children that the people of Israeli and Palestinians don't do that anymore. No. It was a long time ago; we finally all got passed all that. " were beautiful, eloquent, and I as well wish such a time would come to pass. But so long as the Palestineans insist on their hate, it will never happen.

Sincerely,
Lyreiania