Elrostar Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1657309' date='Jan 21 2009, 16.50']Good times, good times. *highschool nostalgia...* Elrostar - national service isn't a hypothetical, it exists and has tons of people, including about 500 arabs a year. What i'm not sure is what the general attitude towards it amongst arabs at large is.[/quote] I'm talking about [i]mandatory[/i] national service for everyone. The fact that it's mandatory for some and voluntary for others is what seems like an inherent problem to me. That's what seems to go against the idea of equal protection under the law, so to speak. I mean, there's already the issue of women serving two years and men serving three, I suppose, but that's a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Fish Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1657309' date='Jan 21 2009, 23.50']Good times, good times. *highschool nostalgia...* Elrostar - national service isn't a hypothetical, it exists and has tons of people, including about 500 arabs a year. What i'm not sure is what the general attitude towards it amongst arabs at large is. Greenfish - D'you know which towns? I'd only heard about Lod and I think Ofakim, but I don't really know anything about northy politics.[/quote] I guess you didn't go to Bnei Akiva... You may find these articles interesting (all of them in Hebrew, guess people abroad don't really care for these internal affairs...): [url="http://www.knesset.gov.il/mmm/data/pdf/m02032.pdf"]http://www.knesset.gov.il/mmm/data/pdf/m02032.pdf[/url] - includes a list of all such towns from 1948 [url="http://www.idi.org.il/PublicationsCatalog/Documents/%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%94%20%D7%94%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%98%D7%99%D7%AA%20%D7%A9%D7%9C%20%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA%20-%20%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94%20%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A7%20%D7%90.pdf"]Another interesting article[/url] about recent developments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1657179' date='Jan 21 2009, 20.24']<very interesting post>[/quote] Thank you for this. It's really nice to get some more details. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Fish Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Elrostar' post='1657344' date='Jan 22 2009, 00.06']I'm talking about [i]mandatory[/i] national service for everyone. The fact that it's mandatory for some and voluntary for others is what seems like an inherent problem to me. That's what seems to go against the idea of equal protection under the law, so to speak. I mean, there's already the issue of women serving two years and men serving three, I suppose, but that's a different matter.[/quote] Exempted populations include: Christian and Muslim Arabs (excluding Druze and non-Arab Christians), Charedim (not all Orthodox Jews though) who declare that they plan on studying Torah, and religious women (who participate in one-year mandatory national service). It may sound odd to outsiders, but most Israelis resent Charedim for not serving but are usually indifferent toward Arabs. Also, there is a sub-current in Israeli media which advocates turning IDF into a professional army, and thus cut its manpower in half. IDF is a monstrous money-grabber and most soldiers are payed poorly (200$/month more or less, where average salary is 1500-2000$/month) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I would think that a mandatory national service might be sufficiently less threatening than mandatory military service that it could perhaps work. Certainly, I understand where you're coming from, Elrostar -- regardless of the causes, the lack of universality is a difficulty. Whether dealing with that would improve the dynamics of the situation, I do not know. Would Israel be very compromised if it went to a purely volunteer military force? Obviously, I'd guess the Israeli government, past and present, fears that that would be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Compulsory military service is probably better for defense while an all volunteer, specialized miliatary force is better for offense (which is mostly what the IDF is used for now). I know some European contries also require compulsory military service, so that if the country is invaded, a large part of the country has training to fight. If Israel didn't have to worry aout Syria (and maybe Iran though its doubtful), it would be far easier to become all volunteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Fish Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1657386' date='Jan 22 2009, 00.39']I would think that a mandatory national service might be sufficiently less threatening than mandatory military service that it could perhaps work. Certainly, I understand where you're coming from, Elrostar -- regardless of the causes, the lack of universality is a difficulty. Whether dealing with that would improve the dynamics of the situation, I do not know. Would Israel be very compromised if it went to a purely volunteer military force? Obviously, I'd guess the Israeli government, past and present, fears that that would be the case.[/quote] I'd say it is halfway there. For years' reserve training has been de-facto voluntary, and so is serving in fighting units. Also, I believe the reasons for preserving mandatory service are mainly political: Keeping IDF the "Army of the People" helps unify the citizens and makes it more immune to inner criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yes, the Nordic countries have mandatory service. But it doesn't have the issues Israel has in regards to Arabs in Israel not being keen on mandatory military service, and being not greatly disposed to mandatory national service. I wonder if there are any polls done with young people asking them if they would volunteer for military if it wasn't mandatory? ETA: Though [url="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/956403.html"]this[/url] is interesting in its implications, maybe. Though I find it hard to credit that the national service route is so unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrostar Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1657413' date='Jan 21 2009, 17.55']Yes, the Nordic countries have mandatory service. But it doesn't have the issues Israel has in regards to Arabs in Israel not being keen on mandatory military service, and being not greatly disposed to mandatory national service. I wonder if there are any polls done with young people asking them if they would volunteer for military if it wasn't mandatory? ETA: Though [url="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/956403.html"]this[/url] is interesting in its implications, maybe. Though I find it hard to credit that the national service route is so unknown.[/quote] Yes, the Danish lottery system is more or less kept in place as a matter of principle. Basically that they want to keep the draft around to show that they can and to continue the idea of the army being something everyone has a stake in. Which makes perfect sense. I think there's a lot to be said for that kind of approach. The randomness of it in Denmark bothers me a fair bit, however. In the past, certainly, you had a pretty varied cross-section of people in the army, I think. I certainly knew a lot of people from my school who volunteered to serve, and they were coming from what can be described as the 'cream' of Danish society. This may have changed in the last ten years, however. Anyway, I think the idea of universal mandatory service is great. I just wish it were truly universal. And I'm not surprised that there's some resentment against some people being able to get out of it. This kind of lack of universality is precisely what I was hoping one could move away from. I think the US could do with some kind of national service as well, for that matter. But that's a different matter entirely. But I guess the point is correct about that type of military being more useful for defensive rather than offensive purposes. And that's not of interest to the DoD. Still, the idea of [i]some[/i] kind of national service seems not at all misplaced. Of course it could then be worked in with a shifting of the national retirement age... yeah, this is not the topic for this discussion ;) And my idea is already political suicide in oh so many ways :) ETA: That article is really interesting. I'm very curious about what to make of its poll findings, though. Any suggestions on interpretations from people on the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-ahrairah Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [*] Pokes snout out of fallout shelter [*] What about making Federal Service in the Mobile Infantry a requirement for Citizenship? [*] Jumps back in fallout shelter [*] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
March Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1657179' date='Jan 21 2009, 15.24']I'm kind of surprised you would even say that - amongst Jews, at least, the idea of an Arab IDF draft is considered pretty much insane (not to mention completely insensetive, offensive and idiotic.) Honestly, I don't think i've ever heard any one even bring it up. Its like you said - no one, on any end of the political scale, expects Arabs to buy into the anti-palestinian aspect of Israeli nationalism - why on earth should they?[/quote] Sorry, I wasn't clear. The position I was referring to is not that Jews would want Arabs to serve in the IDF, but that Israeli Arabs would want to be considered full citizens and want to be exempt from military service simultaneously. My sentence was convoluted and sounded like I was saying something else. I do think that non-military service is a good idea, but someone linked to an article that stated Arab politicians have shot it down. In any case, thanks for the info regarding land. And thanks to Galactus for pointing to the article. Incidentally, the actor's name is Saleh Bakri. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but I googled him. He was apparently named sexiest man in Israel, or some such thing, by a Cosmo-like magazine. And he does look good. But now I'm getting off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 [quote name='March' post='1657495' date='Jan 22 2009, 01.49']Sorry, I wasn't clear. The position I was referring to is not that Jews would want Arabs to serve in the IDF, but that Israeli Arabs would want to be considered full citizens and want to be exempt from military service simultaneously. My sentence was convoluted and sounded like I was saying something else. I do think that non-military service is a good idea, but someone linked to an article that stated Arab politicians have shot it down. In any case, thanks for the info regarding land. And thanks to Galactus for pointing to the article. Incidentally, the actor's name is Saleh Bakri. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but I googled him. He was apparently named sexiest man in Israel, or some such thing, by a Cosmo-like magazine. And he does look good. But now I'm getting off topic.[/quote] But its such a fine place to go off topic to... :thumbsup: Generally speaking, the involvment of Arab celebrities in various controversies and scandals is I think a fairly good thing - it brings these things up in a somewhat less charged, and more accessible context than in the Knesset, and generally from a more participatory place. Bakhri can criticize all he wants, becuase [s]hey, we're happy to stare at him read the phonebook, [/s]he does participate in Israeli society at large, in a way that political leaders seem to disdain by knocking stuff like National Service. I think the idea of mandatory service might be a good idea in principle, but it would need very, very solid backing from the Arab sector itself, politician's religeous leaders, media and all to not be another thing forced by the majority on the minority, and i'm not sure that exists or will exist any time soon. Not to mention participation - military/national service is a big, formative thing in Israeli life. What should National Service do with tens of thousands of Arabs a year? what kind of experience will they have? Where? With jews? how about gender segregation? Should they participate in programs aimed at the Jewish sector? How about working in Jewish schools teaching arabic, or projects aimed at raising the profile of arab-jewish sephardic heritage? Or is an underpriveledged minority serving a mojority in any capacity a really bad idea and they should be dedicated to working inside the arab sector....etc...etc...etc....This really needs Arabs on board to mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Something tells me that both the Arab Israelis and the Jewish Israelis will benefit from spending time together in some kind of National Service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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