baxus Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='snake' post='1646302' date='Jan 12 2009, 23.37']This is [i]supposed[/i] to be an Israeli political thread. No mentioning the G-word please. :P[/quote] how long do you think it will take for this thread to take that turn? EDIT: let's start the count from this post, ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1646304' date='Jan 12 2009, 18.37']There are other arab parties, and arabs can vote for whomever they like. This is really a case of "...defend your right to say it" for me. I have pretty much no respect for those two parties. I really have no idea what the dynamic regarding them is in the arab sector, but from where i'm standing they look like nothing more than a platform to get their leaders some pompous air time and opportunities to defect to Syria. I don't want to see them banned, becuase its not like they're saying anything they haven't always said, but if this serves as an opportunity for some arab parties that are interested in the rights and welfare of their constituents and are capable of disntinguishing Reality, Israel from "It will sound great on al-jazeera" i'll be happy. (ok. slightly mollified) BTW, right now Kadima is polling aboave Likud, so theoretically if everyone to the left of them swings behind them, theres a chance for a center-left government. Which will never happen. But it might still be a center-leftish-bought off religeous party thing.[/quote] According to an article I just read all Arab parties are banned but Arab's are stilled allowed to run within predominately Jewish parties or for the Communist party. ETA: According to the BBC it's two of the three Arab parties so not all of them were banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='baxus' post='1646318' date='Jan 12 2009, 18.43']how long do you think it will take for this thread to take that turn? EDIT: let's start the count from this post, ok?[/quote] Hopefully until everyone gets bored of discussing this topic but lets wait and see. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rane Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='The Green Fish' post='1646276' date='Jan 12 2009, 20.25']Basic Law: The Knesset (Amendment No. 9): 7A. A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following: (1) negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people; (2) negation of the democratic character of the State; (3) incitement to racism.". In the Hebrew version I found it also says: (4) Supporting an armed struggle of an enemy state, or a terror organization, against the State of Israel.[/quote] Which ones the Arab parties did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='rANE' post='1646330' date='Jan 12 2009, 17.48']Which ones the Arab parties did?[/quote] I believe they are accused of 1 and 4. Baxus, unless this thread is banned outright, my guess is 7 to 8 pages before it is locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='G'Kar' post='1646336' date='Jan 12 2009, 18.50']I believe they are accused of 1 and 4.[/quote] That's what the BBC is reporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='G'Kar' post='1646336' date='Jan 12 2009, 23.50']I believe they are accused of 1 and 4.[/quote] Is it a new thing? I've always been told that Israel was the only country that would allow parties against its own being in its parliament. Were they just tolerated before but they just decided to act now for some reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='snake' post='1646323' date='Jan 13 2009, 00.45']According to an article I just read all Arab parties are banned but Arab's are stilled allowed to run within predominately Jewish parties or for the Communist party.[/quote] Theres two arab parties, plus the jewish-arab commy party [i]in the knesset[/i] [i]at the moment[/i]. Those two parties (Ra'am-Ta'al and Balad) have been banned. By name. No ones banned "all arab parties". (i'm not sure if theres any other arab parties running, except Da'am which is also "arab-jewish", but theres 34 altogether, so i'm sure something could turn up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Yobjascz Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Shryke - Israel didn't ban all arab parties, just those two. Your thread title suggests that Israel banned all arab political parties, which is not the case. (Statement backed by Datepalm, as well as a comparison of the two parties actually banned to a list of political parties in Israel). I would also refer people to the [url="http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic2_eng.htm"]basic law of the Knesset, amendment #9[/url], as mentioned earlier by The Green Fish. This is enforcement of their law [b][i]if they have evidence to back it up[/b][/i]. Assuming that such evidence exists, it's not a problem. If such evidence does not exist, then there is a basis for the ruling to be overturned by their Supreme Court. There are a lot of societies whose rules do not fully comport with the American standard of "sweet democracy." The British House of Lords comes to mind. There are also lots of circumstances where American law doesn't comport with our own standards of what democracy should be. That Israel maintains a law that seeks to keep those who want its destruction out of its own government is not so ridiculous. It's when that law is abused without proper evidentiary basis that problems arise. I would also note that this is not an issue of Israel preventing people from voicing their opinions on Israel's right to exist (that law might indeed exist, but that's not what's being discussed). This ruling by the Knesset doesn't prohibit people from voicing that opinion; it prevents those who do from running for public office. The U.S. prevents those not born in the U.S. from running for President on the basis that they're not sufficiently vested/representative of this country. Israel's rule is arguably similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1646344' date='Jan 12 2009, 18.55']Theres two arab parties, plus the jewish-arab commy party [i]in the knesset[/i] [i]at the moment[/i]. Those two parties (Ra'am-Ta'al and Balad) have been banned. By name. No ones banned "all arab parties". (i'm not sure if theres any other arab parties running, except Da'am which is also "arab-jewish", but theres 34 altogether, so i'm sure something could turn up)[/quote] I already noted that when I edited my post above. The articles I initially read stated that Arab parties were banned and never elaborated. The BBC article cleared up the confusion. And this is not the first time such action has taken place. According to the BBC one Arab party narrowly missed being banned back in 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote]That Israel maintains a law that seeks to keep those who want its destruction out of its own government is not so ridiculous[/quote] I don't necessarily disagree with this but the first rule, [quote]negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people;[/quote] I find to be rather ridiculous. But we allow a party in our House of Commons whos main goal is to separate from the country so we're a little weird like that. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Whatever the merits of the claims against these particular Arab parties, the timing is suspect and the effect is to, at least temporarily, remove all meaningful representation from a significant minority. I don't really see how that's defensible. What are these parties now that they weren't doing before? What are their specific acts of Constitutional violation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote]negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people;[/quote] If this is the actual wording than its rather exclusionary, undemocratic, and potentially racist at the onset. What if Arab Muslims come to outnumber Jews 3 to 1? Do they say screw Democracy and still declare it the 'State of the Jewish people'? How can they claim to be operating a liberal Western Democracy when the state is declared to be for a certain specific people? Have the Brits declared England as the state of the white anglos? This is a bit disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1646398' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.28']If this is the actual wording than its rather exclusionary, undemocratic, and potentially racist at the onset. What if Arab Muslims come to outnumber Jews 3 to 1? Do they say screw Democracy and still declare it the 'State of the Jewish people'? How can they claim to be operating a liberal Western Democracy when the state is declared to be for a certain specific people? Have the Brits declared England as the state of the white anglos? This is a bit disturbing.[/quote] I'm only going by what's been posted here but the BBC stated that it was one of the reasons those two parties got banned. The other was supporting terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 A lot of countries have weird laws like that. Croatia constitutionally bans any party or attempt at creating law that would lead to the creation of a greater south-slavic state, for instance. [quote]Is it a new thing? I've always been told that Israel was the only country that would allow parties against its own being in its parliament. Were they just tolerated before but they just decided to act now for some reason?[/quote] Err, most countries do in fact. Start with "every communist party" and work your way down the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='snake' post='1646380' date='Jan 12 2009, 23.20']But we allow a party in our House of Commons whos main goal is to separate from the country so we're a little weird like that. :)[/quote] I believe we have two such parties in our House of Commons (and there would be three, but Sinn Fein refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen so they're not allowed in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thebadlady Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I feel stupid for asking, and I hope to god noone gets all flamey about it, but I don't understand what an Arab Israeli is. Arabs who stayed when Israel was formed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote]I feel stupid for asking, and I hope to god noone gets all flamey about it, but I don't understand what an Arab Israeli is. Arabs who stayed when Israel was formed?[/quote] Yep. Pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='thebadlady' post='1646427' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.41']I feel stupid for asking, and I hope to god noone gets all flamey about it, but I don't understand what an Arab Israeli is. Arabs who stayed when Israel was formed?[/quote] I think that's it. About one fifth of Israeli's are Arabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Maltaran' post='1646418' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.36']I believe we have two such parties in our House of Commons (and there would be three, but Sinn Fein refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen so they're not allowed in).[/quote] Who would they be? Scottish and Welsh independence parties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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