Edda van Heefmstra Ruston Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Malatesta, direct your ire at someone who deserves it. I can't find an example in this thread where Ser Reptitious has ever said either side did no wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 It's amazing that the Israeli propaganda bit about Hamas breaking the truce first has became so accepted in the mainstream presses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Is Hamas the ruler in Gaza or isn't it? If yes, then they're responsible for rockets fired from their territory even if it's some two-bit orgnaization that claims the responsibility for it. It's said that the rockets came from Hamas, armories and that its men volunteered to join (or even form) these two-bit organization to fire the rockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashaman Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 so how do you think this "little" insident will play out for israel's safety on a longer timeline? like 20~50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I have no doubt those rockets were launched bys Hamas militants, as retaliation against the Israeli strike on Nov 4 that killed several of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 We were talking about the rockets they fired during the truce even before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edda van Heefmstra Ruston Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Lev, the video I just linked showed the reporter definitely NOT taking it as given that Hamas broke the ceasefire, and it's not a small operation. It't not, say, the BBC, but it's a legit mainstream news outlet. CNN has something similar, though I don't have the Youtube link handy. Are they swallowing the "Israeli propaganda" as well? I have not seen anybody deny that a tunnel existed, just its purpose. I have not seen anybody -- Mark Regev included -- deny that the Israelis fired rockets first after the ceasefire in June. (Between Hamas and Israel, that is; there were a few non-Hamas rockets over the summer that were fired into Israel.) The point of contention is (as usual in conflicts) whether it was justified or not. Was the tunnel a military operation? Was it a genuine threat to Israel's security? If it was a genuine threat, then does it matter if Hamas didn't actually use munitions in their agression against Israel? If it wasn't, then -- despite being a self-defense mistake -- can the Israeli government be surprised that Hamas retaliated to rocket fire with rocket fire? Shadowbinding shoe, no. As linked above, Mark Regev, as a spokesman for the PM of Israel, admits that none of the rockets fired from the ceasefire in June to those in November were fired by Hamas. In addition, if we're going to go down the road that those in charge must have total control over splinter groups, we'll never come back. It is, IMO, an unrealistic expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatesta Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Marie-Angélieef' post='1654937' date='Jan 20 2009, 14.54']Malatesta, direct your ire at someone who deserves it. I can't find an example in this thread where Ser Reptitious has ever said either side did no wrong.[/quote] In reply to him 'you' is substitutable, certainly for the first half, with the word 'one'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1654960' date='Jan 19 2009, 23.34']We were talking about the rockets they fired during the truce even before that.[/quote] There is no evidence that these were launched by Hamas personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1654963' date='Jan 20 2009, 09.40']There is no evidence that these were launched by Hamas personnel.[/quote] How certain are you of that? But that's the weakest of my claims (with the least evidence), I agree. The claim that the rockets came from Hamas manufacturing or storage facilities is a stronger one. And the claim that as sovereign over the area they are responsible for what happens there is self evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquireThomas Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote]Zionist War CrimesThe Case For The ProsecutionGenocide In Palestine[/quote] This website was so totally awesome, I had to check it out, and man, is it ever informative. In the reading room, I learned not only about the evils of Zionist Jewism (sic), but also about such fascinating topics as mind control, the new world order, and how the world is actually hollow (who knew?!). Clearly, this is an unimpeachable source of sober news coverage. You know Wolf King, I was starting to wonder, after your contributions to the Religion thread, where you got some of your more unique ideas about science, but now it's all coming together like some kind of crazy intelligently-designed puzzle. Answer a question for me: are you home-schooled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Marie-Angélieef' post='1654961' date='Jan 20 2009, 09.36']The point of contention is (as usual in conflicts) whether it was justified or not. Was the tunnel a military operation? Was it a genuine threat to Israel's security?[/quote] They can dig a hundred tunnels into Egypt and say it's for supplies, food, medicine, whatever. If they dig a single tunnel into Israel it means only one thing : a way to get under the Wall to "obtain" Israeli soldiers or commit suicide bombings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1654747' date='Jan 20 2009, 04.54']According to Israel :rofl:[/quote] [url="http://www.socialistvoice.ca/?p=226"]http://www.socialistvoice.ca/?p=226[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1654696' date='Jan 20 2009, 04.08']Isn't the PA controlled by Fatah? So isn't giving them money just lining a bunch of pockets, with the occasional trickle down to the actual people it's supposed to help?[/quote] a. We really don't care about them lining their pockets (except, of course, when it makes their own people resent them, and choose a bunch of blood thirsty fundies as leaders instead. Then, we care). b. I'm sure with pro-West Salaam Fiaad as Treasury Secretary the amount of pocket lining will be minimal. c. The important thing is for the secular forces to be seen as rescuing the Palestinian people from the mess the religious zealots got them into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Heh, instead of trying to lay the blame on one side or another, we can look at what was accomplished with this incident, and what lessons to take from it. So, for those invested in denigrating one side or the other, what was accomplished in your eyes? And how will it impact the future of the region? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davos Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 *mod hat* Please, people keep it civil. We've already had the line crossed on a couple of occasions in this thread. I want to be able to have a discussion of this topic here. We are not going to allow a repeat of the ugliness that the thread a week or so ago decended into, though. Basically we are going to be less tolerant when it comes personal attacks. Let the discussion continue. if you choose to make this personal, if you start up with the flaming, with the baiting, or with the trolling and find yourself sitting on the sidelines for a couple of days you have been forewarned. */mod hat* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1654601' date='Jan 19 2009, 19.14']b. New understandings with Egypt will ensure their full cooperation in preventing any smuggling from their side. No smuggling = No rockets.[/quote] And no basic necessities of life, and no real hope for any kind of economic growth. Because keeping Gaza living at the poverty level is going to make them happy to negortiate with Israel And truth, I think Egypt as well as the rest of the world is pretty sick of the "well they shoot rockets" narrative. Not when Israel was careless and callous in regards to civilians living in Gaza. I think Israel is going to have to bend over backwards to not look like they're dicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1654704' date='Jan 19 2009, 21.14']What?[/quote] Up until late November, Al Aqsa was responsible for the nearly all of the rockets being fired into Israel and Israel would institute closures on the border. It was until fighting over a tunnel into Israel that Hamas started firing rockets again. ETA Dammit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Malatesta' post='1654715' date='Jan 19 2009, 21.24']Israel is the super power of the region. Hamas didn't break the ceasefire - according to Israel. Israel killed Hamas members on the 4th - the start of this period of the violence. You are perfectly deluded about basic moral principles.[/quote] In some defense of Israel, the two members of Hamas who were killed were in the process of digging a tunnel into Jerusalem. Sere personally, I'm thinking the tunnels are the big issue. If, you know, maybe the borders were open consistently, then there would be little need for smuggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Deleted, by scrahan for being a little too snarky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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