Battlestar Galactica: This Thread has Happened Before and Will Happen Again

[Werthead]

Preview for Friday's episode [url="http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Battlestar-Galactica-Blood-On-The-Scales-Episode-Clip-14960.html"]here[/url].

[quote name='Arakasi' post='1672600' date='Feb 3 2009, 20.56']Yes, but that was due to acting changes and changes forced on them because they thought they were going to be canceled. That is much different from BSG, where they've not had to deal with that and have gone off the seat of their pants.

Plus the proof is in the pudding so to speak. The most egrarious thing that JMS did was the switching from Sinclair to Sheridan. And what did that change to the viewers? Basically changed how the result of B^2 to War without End changed. Most of the rest of the stuff was remarkably consistent. And more importantly, it made sense to the viewer. It worked, it didn't make the audience go WTF like BSG does constantly.[/quote]

Since JMS published his 'plan' in the [b]B5[/b] scriptbooks, it's become abundantly clear how much he oversold the concept. The [b]B5[/b] five-year-plan bears a resemblance to what happened, but the timing of events is different and also some of the biggest revelations in [b]B5[/b] were never supposed to happen. Sinclair was supposed to be the [i]reincarnation[/i] of Valen, yes, but he wasn't literally the same being. Babylon 4 was going to be brought [i]forwards[/i] in time to replace Babylon 5 when it was destroyed by the Minbari warrior caste. The Shadow War was far vaster and far more apocalyptic, and would have run concurrently with the Minbari Civil War. Both conflicts would have been ongoing at the end of the series and not resolved until a sequel spin-off series called [b]Babylon Prime[/b].

It all sounds a bit batshit insane, to be honest, and I think JMS calming down and making the changes he did worked far better, although it is clear in [i]War Without End[/i] just how much dancing he had to do to make that story fit onto a framework that didn't exist when he wrote [i]Babylon Squared[/i] two years earlier.

[Wouter]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1672574' date='Feb 3 2009, 21.41']Eh, her character hasn't been all that interesting for awhile now. I'm betting we'll see a bunch more of her when Cavil re-enters the story.[/quote]
"Her character"? I guess you mean Boomer, one of the about #124564 characters she plays (though most are so unmemorable or interchangeable one barely notices). As for her not having been interesting for a while now, don't you think that's the fault of the writers? It's hard to be interesting with like 5 scenes total over the last 23 or so episodes, anyway.

Kalbear;
When Tigh was alone during the time Adama was gravely injured, he was from extreme or nihilistic. To the contrary, he lost sleep over the Gideon incident, allthough he wasn't really at fault there, nor was it completely the fault of the military (Adama apparently can threaten to have Cally executed without losing sleep over it, or take the Tyllium ship by storm, whereas Tigh was ultimately afraid of using violence during his turn as leader of the fleet). Tigh also showed a lot of restraint during the stand-off in "Revelations", allthough he could have hidden his Cylon-ness by advocating a suicide strike (nuclear loaded Raptor under the guise of negotiations, for example) against the Cylon baseship - the action I'd expect from a man who was so ruthless on New Caprica, for so little results.

His decision in the mini was a very hard one to make for him, so hard he first looked for Adama to make it, while he choked on it. And as Adama backed it, I'd say it was that or losing the ship and everyone on board anyway. Tigh can make hard decisions - but not like the cold killer on New Caprica.

Another rather inconsistent moment for both Tigh and Caprica-6 is their weird relationship, which came out of nowhere and made little sense with its slight sadomasochistic overtones.

[quote]For us, it's not that important why Cavil has entranced Boomer, because, well, we don't actually interact with Boomer all that much.[/quote]
She used to be an important and compelling character. Ball dropped by the writers. It would be like saying that Rachel wasn't important in Blade Runner, because we didn't interact that much with her - if the writers had decided to write it that way, of course.

[Kalbear]

[quote]When Tigh was alone during the time Adama was gravely injured, he was from extreme or nihilistic. To the contrary, he lost sleep over the Gideon incident, allthough he wasn't really at fault there, nor was it completely the fault of the military (Adama apparently can threaten to have Cally executed without losing sleep over it, or take the Tyllium ship by storm, whereas Tigh was ultimately afraid of using violence during his turn as leader of the fleet). Tigh also showed a lot of restraint during the stand-off in "Revelations", allthough he could have hidden his Cylon-ness by advocating a suicide strike (nuclear loaded Raptor under the guise of negotiations, for example) against the Cylon baseship - the action I'd expect from a man who was so ruthless on New Caprica, for so little results.[/quote]Okay, you're comparing how Tigh reacted after a few days of not having Adama around to how he reacted after a year of torture, violence, and fighting a guerrila war. In both cases he made similar decisions and reactions; one is just a bit more than the other. Tigh's instinct is to the nihilistic. It's one of the reasons that he has such a hard time with coming back to the fleet; he made the decisions that haunt him (they all haunt him) and Adama just doesn't seem to understand.

Tigh making hard decisions and being destroyed by those decisions is the crux of him. That's his self-hatred, right there. He knows that the decision is damning. He knows it might not even be right. But he does it anyway, and he hates himself for it. This is the core of his relationship with Ellen, it's the core of his relationship with Six, it's the core of his command decisions. That's who Tigh is. And that's why he's so god damn awesome.

[quote]Another rather inconsistent moment for both Tigh and Caprica-6 is their weird relationship, which came out of nowhere and made little sense with its slight sadomasochistic overtones.[/quote]Wait - you think that a relationship with an abusive, haughty, beautiful woman is actually out of character for Saul Tigh? Seriously? His going to an unapproachable cylon to figure out how to deal with the realization that he has become literally something he hates makes little sense?

[Shryke]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1672631' date='Feb 3 2009, 16.11']"Her character"? I guess you mean Boomer, one of the about #124564 characters she plays (though most are so unmemorable or interchangeable one barely notices). As for her not having been interesting for a while now, don't you think that's the fault of the writers? It's hard to be interesting with like 5 scenes total over the last 23 or so episodes, anyway.

She used to be an important and compelling character. Ball dropped by the writers. It would be like saying that Rachel wasn't important in Blade Runner, because we didn't interact that much with her - if the writers had decided to write it that way, of course.[/quote]

Sometimes a character just doesn't have much to say or do. I mean, they've dropped Helo out of the spotlight too. And Baltar for awhile there. And others. Characters come and go from centre stage in the show all the time, except for Adama and Roslin really.

[quote]When Tigh was alone during the time Adama was gravely injured, he was from extreme or nihilistic. To the contrary, he lost sleep over the Gideon incident, allthough he wasn't really at fault there, nor was it completely the fault of the military (Adama apparently can threaten to have Cally executed without losing sleep over it, or take the Tyllium ship by storm, whereas Tigh was ultimately afraid of using violence during his turn as leader of the fleet). Tigh also showed a lot of restraint during the stand-off in "Revelations", allthough he could have hidden his Cylon-ness by advocating a suicide strike (nuclear loaded Raptor under the guise of negotiations, for example) against the Cylon baseship - the action I'd expect from a man who was so ruthless on New Caprica, for so little results.

His decision in the mini was a very hard one to make for him, so hard he first looked for Adama to make it, while he choked on it. And as Adama backed it, I'd say it was that or losing the ship and everyone on board anyway. Tigh can make hard decisions - but not like the cold killer on New Caprica.[/quote]

No, in the miniseries Adama didn't tell him to do it, he told him to regrow his fucking spine. The point was "Be Saul Tigh again". And so he becomes the officer he's always been. Cold and hard. And he orders the men vented for the safety of the ship.

And New Caprica chanegd Tigh quite a bit. Before then he was never completely certain in his role of the hardass. He has second thoughts during his tenure as head of the Fleet. New Caprica changes that. It's a much more bleak situation and he doesn't have Adama to fall back on. So he hardens up and becomes the role he's been playing.

As for Revelations, that was one of Tigh's BEST character moments. You just really don't understand the man at all. He reveals himself finally because, at that moment, WHO he is (Saul Tigh, the Fleet's second-in-command) and WHAT he is (a Cylon) finally match up perfectly. He's no longer divided. He walks into Adama's office and says "I'm a Cylon, USE ME AS A WEAPON AGAINST OUR ENEMIES!".

[Arakasi]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1672630' date='Feb 3 2009, 15.10']Preview for Friday's episode [url="http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Battlestar-Galactica-Blood-On-The-Scales-Episode-Clip-14960.html"]here[/url].



Since JMS published his 'plan' in the [b]B5[/b] scriptbooks, it's become abundantly clear how much he oversold the concept. The [b]B5[/b] five-year-plan bears a resemblance to what happened, but the timing of events is different and also some of the biggest revelations in [b]B5[/b] were never supposed to happen. Sinclair was supposed to be the [i]reincarnation[/i] of Valen, yes, but he wasn't literally the same being. Babylon 4 was going to be brought [i]forwards[/i] in time to replace Babylon 5 when it was destroyed by the Minbari warrior caste. The Shadow War was far vaster and far more apocalyptic, and would have run concurrently with the Minbari Civil War. Both conflicts would have been ongoing at the end of the series and not resolved until a sequel spin-off series called [b]Babylon Prime[/b].

It all sounds a bit batshit insane, to be honest, and I think JMS calming down and making the changes he did worked far better, although it is clear in [i]War Without End[/i] just how much dancing he had to do to make that story fit onto a framework that didn't exist when he wrote [i]Babylon Squared[/i] two years earlier.[/quote]

Like I said the proof is in the pudding. The concept originally might have been crazy, but how it was implemented made logical sense. The problems with B5 are clunky dialogue and acting, not anything dealing with the 5 year arc not making sense. It was different than originally planned (some due to changes, some due to acting changes, some due to them not knowing what would happen with the show) but it worked. Not so much for BS5, where often things are inconsistent from season to season, or at least that is what people more in the know are saying.

Edit: Everyone expects what goes on behind the scenes to be much different than what was shown. That ideas were originally conceived that never made it to the screen. Heck we see this in books. GRRM has elaborated on changes he has made that would have made the story a lot different, so has Erikson. The important thing is that the fan while partaking the work was never made aware of when the writer shifted directions. When the audience becomes actively aware of the writers losing their way, it means the writers have fucked up.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Arakasi' post='1672654' date='Feb 3 2009, 16.24']Like I said the proof is in the pudding. The concept originally might have been crazy, but how it was implemented made logical sense. The problems with B5 are clunky dialogue and acting, not anything dealing with the 5 year arc not making sense. It was different than originally planned (some due to changes, some due to acting changes, some due to them not knowing what would happen with the show) but it worked. Not so much for BS5, where often things are inconsistent from season to season, or at least that is what people more in the know are saying.

Edit: Everyone expects what goes on behind the scenes to be much different than what was shown. That ideas were originally conceived that never made it to the screen. Heck we see this in books. GRRM has elaborated on changes he has made that would have made the story a lot different, so has Erikson. The important thing is that the fan while partaking the work was never made aware of when the writer shifted directions. When the audience becomes actively aware of the writers losing their way, it means the writers have fucked up.[/quote]

What people more in the know? I mean, who gives a shit if Grace Park doesn't know her characters motivation. As long as it doesn't show up on screen, it's irrelevant.

The people "in the know" are you and me and everyone else on this thread who watches the show. If it's consistent to us, that's all that matters. And it's been fairly consistent throughout, and the majority of the stuff that hasn't been can't be judged yet because the shows not over.

[Wouter]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1672586' date='Feb 3 2009, 21.45']Most shows aren't serials. And just about every major serial not on HBO and Showtime have suffered from this lack of clear direction, planning, and foundation. I think its time for 'most shows' of this kind to take a different path.[/quote]
I think this is the major cause movies tend to be better than TV series, allthough TV has a lot more time to introduce characters properly and make people care about them, to develop plot and concepts and pay them off. TV shows tend to be schizophrenic with lots of writers working on them, sometimes changes being forced by the network or even a change of producers, and lack of a clear direction leading to an ulitmately quite aimless show. An excellent TV show could be much better than a good movie I think, in spite of the big budget that movies often have, as the people excited by the (hopefully) planned HBO "Song of Ice and Fire" show will see. But to realise this potential, there needs to be a clear direction in it.

Shryke;
[quote]That's cause, as has been pointed out many times, the people Gaeta is drawing on in the mutiny are the nastier elements of the military. The REAL Cylon haters, the disgruntled, the angry, etc. These are not nice people.[/quote]
So, Adama has all the angels and Gaeta has the scum? Aren't we being a bit too much black-and-white here?

[quote]And on New Caprica, his duty was to resist teh Cylon occupation. To keep them jumpy and nervous and off balance.[/quote]
Well done, keeping the cylons jumpy - partly by killing his own men and random civilians, including a planned suicide bombing of the market, of all places - resulting in the Cylons being alert and the Cylons being murderous, which in turn forced Adama to act earlier than he'd wanted. Why didn't he get a metal for this?

[quote]She finds out she's a Cylon, she denies it. Then she tries to kill Adama (the man she respects more then (almost) anyone else) and then she becomes hated by her own crew, the man she loves tells her he hates her and then she's murdered by one of her crew. So, yeah, she's slightly pissed at the Colonials.[/quote]
Actually, the next time we see her after being murdered by Cally, she's slightly pissed at the Cylons (reasonable reaction, considering what the other Cylons did with her/made her do and what she experienced during the Cylon attack) and even still wearing a colonial uniform. How she goes from there to apparently supporting the occupation to siding with Cavil, even against her own model (as well as making dead threats to a little child), is totally unclear. At the same time, Athena goes from being pissed off and depressed by the "dead" of Hera, as well being unceremoniously thrown in jail for not betraying Cavil, to being a super-loyal, accepted colonial officer. All in the space of 2 episodes. It looks like Boomer is angry with the colonials instrad of Athena, and Athena is angry with the Cylons instead of Boomer, from the start of S3 on. Before that, they were both very different.

Kalbear;
[quote]B5, by comparison, didn't have the flexibility to deal with Ivanova leaving or really have a story to deal with after S4 ended, and as a result the final season sucked hard. When they didn't need the flexibility it was pretty great, but when it did it was rigid and poor.[/quote]
One possible solution to protect against actors leaving is to replace the actor but not the character. Hard to pull off, but it can work and you're not being held hostage by actors (he Harry Potter movies did it). For a show like "ASOIAF" on HBO, they couldn't do anything else if, say, the actress playing Dany or the actor playing Jon would call it a day after season 1.