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Phel,

regarding paladin healing, the thing that makes them so incredibly mana efficient is that a well geared holy paladin in 7.5 raid gear sits on around 60% crit, haste maxed and gemmed for int and crit. With replenishment, there is no way to go oom since it is based on mana pool, and a paladin has a LARGE mana pool compared to say, priests. Top geared paladins don't even go for mp5 anymore, just as priests are taking spirit only cause it boosts their healing and not for regen.

Also, with Beacon of Light and the new Holy Light glyph, their HL crits 60% of the time on a 1.6 sec cast time.

Plus it crits MUCH harder than my Gheal. I mean, we're talking 3k harder with similar gear. My raid buffed crit sits just over 20% (been gemming for haste instead of crit) which is significantly lower than a paladin's.

Combined with the crazy splash healing from the HL glyph....it just seems like you shouldn't really need other healing classes except for their individual biffs, and then fill the rest of the slots with paladins.


I've started gemming only for haste now, since regen is a non issue. I would like to combine it with crit if possible, but those stats never seem to exist on the same items.

I've got 3 7.5 items I think, (or maybe it's 4, can't remember), the ilvl226 head from Malygos and a mix of 25 man and ten man gear the rest. For me, mana is never an issue. I could go a bit low before on Maly P2 and Sarth +2, but after the CoH nerf, I can't spend the mana I have. I used one mana pot last Naxx 25 and I've swapped from mp5 flasks to spellpower ones. Considering going for crit food as well instead of spellpower/regen.

IT's strange how replenishment is the end all and be all now, since the regen mechanics changed. I also made the mistake initially of healing like at lvl 70, with casting and then having a break and going outside the 5SR, but that's not really necessary now with insane replenishment mana. Stacking int until you reach a cut off point is far superior, the rest is taste; basically how much haste vs crit you want.

EDIT: Plus paladins have Divine Plea as well, which is very nice. I think our holy pala judges wisdom and we have our prot pala judge light.
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I'll definitely believe you on the throughput and efficiency, and the not caring about mp5 even. I used to maintain a ret spec healing set which focused on mp5 over crit, and a holy spec healing set which focused on crit. Used the ret spec set whenever some idiots decided we needed 4 healers on Nightbane in a rotation, and dropping the top dps off to heal made sense. With the new Ret I'd wear the same type of gear as I would when Holy, relying on Judgments of the Wise to keep my mana up. Mp5 was always for the paladin without Illumination or without enough crit to keep going.

I do however feel that while the HL glyph provides serious additional throughput, it still doesn't really address the group healing tools that the paladin has historically lacked. That is to say, if you're spamming HL on the tank, and then people are receiving healing from it, all well and good. But if you actually need to top of multiple people, there it's close to worthless. Which, granted, is considered acceptable, especially for raids. And of course is exactly why paladins were such unpopular healers in Sunwell.

I'm also a little surprised that they've been getting their crit that high, even with 11% crit to Holy Light from talents (16 assuming Holy/Ret is the standard), but I suppose only caring about four stats, and having increased benefit from Int (15% bonus along with 20% Int->Spellpower) can pull that off. Having haste maxed as well, even counting the 10% from judging, well, it's better than I expected for current gear levels, but I can see it from the available gear focus.

Divine Plea is handy though probably of slightly more value to the ret and prot paladins, who don't care about taking the 20% healing hit while recovering mana. Certainly as a ret paladin I find I need to use it constantly.

Bacon effectively doubling any heal not cast on the bacon target obviously counts for a lot too, even if it may mean a lot of overhealing. I know that I've seen recounts of paladins with at least 60% overhealing, though I don't know if this was the paladin being bad or just lots of Bacon. I do know that in almost every raid my guild leader goes to with other people, it seems that nobody but her ever removes poisons or curses.
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Well, the thing is, that with Beacon of Light AND the Holy Light glyph, a paladin both has higher single target throughput AND higher group/raid throughput than a Holy priest. The top guilds' priests on EJ are starting to get annoyed since on fights where intense AoE damage is part of the encounter (in current content Sarth with 2-3 drakes up) paladin's HL Glyph alone outheals a priest's CoH after the nerf.

This [url="http://wowwebstats.com/hnxskxnjav2ku"]is the parse from our latest lagfest in Obsidian Sanctum. 2 drakes alive.[/url]

First wipe is stupidity, second is lagatronlolz, third is a kill.

Our pally sits on around 50% crit here, with more on Holy shock. He claimed the other day he thinks 60% is reachable soon.

The difference to earlier is the crazy healing done by the HL glyph, doing over one million healing. Compare it to my numbers, where I think my most used heal is about on par with his glyph healing alone. The glyph also has a range of 20 yards and heals up to 5 friendly target for 10% of the healing of HL. As our pally regularly crits for well over 18k (I'm convinced he will break 20k soon, he managed 19.5 last week) that's 1.8k healing every crit, and around 1k on a non crit. And that's every 1.6 sec + GCD. Plus of course, if the paladin heals random melee, and has Beacon on tank, his actual HL hits twice, plus the splash. That means he can theoretically heal for say:

18k +18k + 9k (aoe healing) = 45k theoretical healing if he gets a crit, which he will get half the time.

A non crit will be maybe 10k, so 20k with beacon, adding 5k for splash =25k healing.

Meaning a paladin with Beacon and the HL glyph pumps out on average 35k healing every 1.6 seconds, plus GCD.

Yeah, the often have 60% overheal :) but with the amount of healing they can output, it's not strange.
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You playing on US servers, Yerman? If so then they are down for weekly maintenance, and won't be back online yet. I think there is also a small patch as well this week.

The Holy Light Glyph is nuts... so that explains:

[quote]Glyph of Light nerfed in a hotfix
This glyph is vastly overpowered. We are hotfixing the range from 20 yards down to 8 yards. In its current form it has basically become "proc a Circle of Healing" in the same patch that we nerfed Circle of Healing. (Source)[/quote]

That will make a huge difference in their output, and bring it back in line with normal healing numbers. Still good for melee healing, still good when people are clumped up but not as insane as it is now.
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[quote name='Yerman' post='1664003' date='Jan 27 2009, 10.53']Anyone else having trouble logging in? Are Blizzard doing some kind of maintainance atm?[/quote]
yes...Tuesdays are patch/update days. Sometimes it is just a rolling restart where the server is down for a short time, sometimes it is an inexorable 8 hour drag on our lewting time.
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[quote]That will make a huge difference in their output, and bring it back in line with normal healing numbers. Still good for melee healing, still good when people are clumped up but not as insane as it is now.[/quote]

Yep, there were raids where the HL glyph alone outhealed everyone else. Sick :P

The change means paladins can still AoE heal on Loken and on Kel'Thuzad's frost blasts, but they won't own everything and everyone by default.

I'm glad it's getting nerfed tho and I can't for the life of me understand why that even went live. I sometimes wonder if anyone at Blizzard HQ plays a healer? :P
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Standard Tuesday maintenance. Every week they take the servers down to dust out the cobwebs and such.

In terms of a quick look at that data, while the paladin does have the highest overhealing, it's not a truly dramatic difference except over one of the druids. That does surprise me. While he effectively gets free group healing, I'd assert that for dedicated group healing just about any class is superior.

Not that I'd encourage a paladin not to take that glyph as Holy; it's a no-brainer really.

I see his Holy Lights average less than your GHeals, but he also casts a lot more of them, and it does have a shorter cast time.

Honestly, I don't do enough healing or looking at raid parsing to argue meaningfully. We don't tend to WWS, and we rarely even analyze whatever recap or recount shows, aside from looking over damage totals and sometimes decursing totals. I will say I'm surprised at how strong the paladin's AoE healing is, and especially at how apparently overwhelmingly strong it is.

One thing I will note, however, is that of the healing classes, paladins got the largest rework in WotLK. Priests, Druids, and Shaman are all waiting for a really substantial rework. Paladins went from having Flash of Light, Holy Light, and Holy Shock (which was basically Flash of Light delivered at the top of the GCD then), and basically spamming FoL unless the target's health went below X, where they'd switch to Holy Light (and start to run low on mana relatively quickly), to having Holy Shock become worth casting, and judgments viable as well. Hopefully 3.1 will bring some more notable changes to how the other healing classes work.
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[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1664026' date='Jan 27 2009, 17.08']So... when is the nerf bat coming out for the paladins? They're sort of stupid easy on ret already, and now their holy spec is sort of OP too? :P[/quote]


There are some rumours that paladin sustainability will be hit so they can't be such spambots as they are now. Basically, according to EJ et al, once you reach a certain cut off point in int and crit, you technically cannot go oom with replenishment and full raid buffs, plus other mana regen talents.


Phel,

Plus apart from that, they also have Beacon, Divine Plea and Sacred shield. Sacred shield is actually surprisingly good, if used correctly. I can understand paladins having to get used to their new abilities as well, since many of them are new and a bit different in functionality than direct heals.


You can also note that I do very little of my healing with Gheal, as it is slow and clunky, and even hasted sits of 2.3 sec, while my pally colleague can get his HL off far quicker.

I also noticed I was in my crit gear there, since I seem to creep up towards 30% crit. I've swapped over to more haste now, so we'll see how it goes. If I can cram my gheal into a 2 sec cast, it may be worthwhile again.
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[quote]Hopefully 3.1 will bring some more notable changes to how the other healing classes work.[/quote]

My shaman is perfect, they should leave us alone. Aka DON'T FUCK US UP.

Yerman, where are you geopgraphically, if you don't mind me asking? :)
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The glyph also has a range of 20 yards and heals up to 5 friendly target for 10% of the healing of HL. As our pally regularly crits for well over 18k (I'm convinced he will break 20k soon, he managed 19.5 last week) that's 1.8k healing every crit, and around 1k on a non crit. And that's every 1.6 sec + GCD.


The range was nerfed to 8 yards
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[quote]The range was nerfed to 8 yards[/quote]

I already posted that, noob!

My highest crit on Healing Wave is 18k. I want to break 20 :(

[quote]I live in Ireland, but I know a New Yorker through a writing site who plays WoW. She convinced me to give it a go, so I'm on Haomarush US so I can raid and level with 'er.[/quote]

Ah hah! I knew I was confused somehow. I was convinced yesterday you were in the EU, and so i was confused why you were having maintenance. The time difference can suck at times. I've lived in the UK and played in the US, and lived in the US and played on the EU servers. But that's more a problem when you are all grown up and raiding and stuff. Its not such a problem at the lower levels (although finding instance groups might be, depending on the time of day), and you have a pal to play with so that is good. :)
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[quote name='Ghost of Nymeria' post='1664054' date='Jan 27 2009, 17.21']I already posted that, noob!

My highest crit on Healing Wave is 18k. I want to break 20 :([/quote]


I'll put Guardian Spirit on you and you'll crit harder!! :P

My pally colleague is emo I specced out of disc, since he coveted power infusion. :lol:
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Ret pallies are definitely easy, but so far I wouldn't call them OP. I certainly outdamage all the pugs I group with, and even did when 3 levels lower... but they weren't pulling remotely the damage they should have been pulling anyway.

While soloing, I do a ton of damage, but I take a lot too. Nowhere near enough more damage done than my warrior to compensate for ease of soloing.

The only thing that's hard for a ret pally in groups really is mana management; with only three buttons to hit, 4 if we can spare the mana to Consecrate (which we should be able to), there's not much to worry about. I always try to work cleanses in where appropriate, and likewise instant Flash of Lights. I'm working on keeping the various Hand spells in mind so I can use them.

I'd forgotten about Sacred Shield; I haven't gotten it yet so it's not in my mind properly. What I meant was that paladins, of all three specs, received a major overhaul in WotLK. As far as I'm aware, no other healing spec received nearly so sweeping a change. Not so much in the "get used to it" sense as... I'm thinking back to when, in vanilla, Blizzard did one class per patch (occasionally two), and each time, that class just jumped up in effectiveness. In essence, paladins have gotten that jump in their healing, and the other classes haven't.
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