Lost Season 5 Thread 2

[Jon Targaryen]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1670390' date='Feb 1 2009, 15.03']And I'm thinking that it's because of what we learned in the last episode. If Widmore is an Other, Ben may not be ALLOWED to kill him.[/quote]
Is Jacob the one not allowing Ben to kill Widmore, under the theory? Jacob seems to be a fair bit mystical and may do things that make little sense to mere mortals.

Because seeing as Widmore is supposed to have wanted to kill [i]everyone[/i] on the island, I think self-defense might apply in the case of Others v. Widmore. But maybe the theory is that now that Widmore is not an immediate threat to the Others there is a prohibition against killing him.

Myself, I think Ben thinks Widmore would suffer more from losing Penny than from Widmore's own death. He wants revenge and thinks that would be the best play.

[Shryke]

"Not allowed" in the sense that it's against the rules.

Remember, the Others are "good people". They speak an "enlightened language". They've got this real "We are better people then you" thing going on. So I wouldn't be surprised if murdering an Other was considered a big no-no.

Widmore may not care anymore though, as he seems to want the Island, whereas Ben wants to rejoin the Others.

[aariafromarty]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1670457' date='Feb 1 2009, 19.34']"Not allowed" in the sense that it's against the rules.

Remember, the Others are "good people". They speak an "enlightened language". They've got this real "We are better people then you" thing going on. So I wouldn't be surprised if murdering an Other was considered a big no-no.

Widmore may not care anymore though, as he seems to want the Island, whereas Ben wants to rejoin the Others.[/quote]

Where was this rule when young Charles Widmore neck snapped his co-captured Other? Even the whole chop off the hand thing doesnt fit in with "good people" motif.

[Shryke]

[quote name='aariafromarty' post='1670499' date='Feb 1 2009, 20.48']Where was this rule when young Charles Widmore neck snapped his co-captured Other? Even the whole chop off the hand thing doesnt fit in with "good people" motif.[/quote]

MY "good people" motif? You need to watch the damn show.

The Others call themselves "good people" all the time. And they've killed plenty of people, including some of the Losties. That's never stopped them from feeling all superior and more moral then everyone else.

As for Widmore snapping the other guys neck? Can be either "He betrayed us" or, since we KNOW Widmore is kind of a dick, he figured none of the other Others would ever find out about it.

[Werthead]

That's an interesting idea. In [i]The Shape of Things to Come[/i], in the excellent Ben/Widmore confrontation, Widmore asks Ben if he's going to kill him and he says no and Widmore knows that Ben can't kill him.

The prohibition may also be why the mercs were sent to the Island to capture or kill Ben, as there's nothing stopping someone else from killing Ben, but Widmore can't do it directly (assuming he is still bound by the rules of the Others; he may not be anymore).

[Shryke]

Aye, I'm thinking Widmore had probably abandoned all the rules of the Others. They probably threw him out for .... something. And now he wants the Island back and to get rid of the Others who kicked him out.

IMO, there's a good chance it has something to do with Dharma and Widmore's involvement with them, but I could be wrong.

[All-for-Joffrey]

One thing I find very intriguing about this episode is the fact that the compass seems to circle through time. Alpert has the compass because Locke gave it to him but Locke has the compass only because Alpert gave it to him to give to him in the past. If this is the case, then how did the compass come into exisistence in the first place?

[Young Wolf]

[quote name='All-for-Joffrey' post='1670752' date='Feb 2 2009, 01.29']One thing I find very intriguing about this episode is the fact that the compass seems to circle through time. Alpert has the compass because Locke gave it to him but Locke has the compass only because Alpert gave it to him to give to him in the past. [b]If this is the case, then how did the compass come into exisistence in the first place?[/b][/quote]

If I had to guess, the pirate/whatever/slave ship.

YW

[G'Kar]

[quote name='All-for-Joffrey' post='1670752' date='Feb 2 2009, 01.29']One thing I find very intriguing about this episode is the fact that the compass seems to circle through time. Alpert has the compass because Locke gave it to him but Locke has the compass only because Alpert gave it to him to give to him in the past. If this is the case, then how did the compass come into exisistence in the first place?[/quote]

Its a paradox. Alpert only has the compass because Locke gave it to him and Locke only has the compass because Alpert gave it to him.

Its very similar to a Cristopher Reeve movie from the 80s called [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somewhere_in_Time_%28film%29"]Somewhere in Time[/url], where a women gives a pocket watch to Reeve, and he travels to the past and gives it her, so that she can give it to him in the future. So where did the watch come from?

[Werthead]

If Richard gets the watch subsequently from the [i]Black Rock[/i] then he'll have two pocket watches which are actually the same device. He just has to remember to give the original to Locke. The older watch he can then chuck in the bin or throw in the sea or something, as it's not important to the loop at that point.

[Jon Targaryen]

Does this work?

Locke gives the compass to Richard in 1954. It gets destroyed sometime in between 1954 and whenever Richard gives it to Locke again. Richard acquires the compass from wherever it came from. Richard gives the compass at the time he did.

So the life of the compass is:

Constructed --> Richard acquires --> Richard gives to Locke --> Locke gives to Richard --> Destroyed --> Repeat

I don't know if that works and I suspect that even it does it's not the only explanation.

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1671013' date='Feb 2 2009, 10.29']If Richard gets the watch subsequently from the [i]Black Rock[/i] then he'll have two pocket watches which are actually the same device. He just has to remember to give the original to Locke. The older watch he can then chuck in the bin or throw in the sea or something, as it's not important to the loop at that point.[/quote]

Look at what you did, you confused Werthead.

The compass; Yes, I did notice the possibility that the Compass was looping around in time. The truth of the matter is that the compass is Locke's as shown from the test and that's all we really know about it. The problem is trying to make any guesses right now because Richard and Locke will meet again at some point in time. If anything, it may end up as a non-continous loop that started in 1977 or whatever time they meet up again.

All we can say right now is that Richard gives John a compass in {whatever time that was. I want to say 2004 but I have no proof. After the Oceanic 6 left the Island} and it was the same compass that John gave to Richard in 1954. We can only assume it was the same compass in 1964. Beyond that, we don't know anything.

Non-continuous loop: Ok, I'd better explain what I mean. Right now, we have a paradox with the single compass. We don't know where it came from or where it went; it only loops around time again and again. What we have to have is two compasses at some point, an event that breaks both the loop and the paradox {possibly the universe as well}. It would also have to be an event that clearly marks Locke as the compass owner.

I wouldn't be surprised if the compass that didn't loop turns out to be in Jeremy Bentham's pocket.

[snowleo]

Good catch all you who think Blonde other girl = Faraday's mom! I admit, the thought didn't even cross my mind. I'm not good with faces, and I thought she was maybe the same as Oxford coma-girl. Coma-girl isn't anyone we've met, is she?

Another question--Widmore told Ben that the island was "his"--any thoughts on this? I can't see Widmore getting "chosen" as leader of the Others, but perhaps he took control of them by some other means, only to be somehow banished by Ben?

snow " "awwwwed" out-loud at Desmond/Penny's baby-name :love: " leo

[Myrddin]

[quote name='snowleo' post='1671290' date='Feb 2 2009, 12.48']snow " "awwwwed" out-loud at Desmond/Penny's baby-name :love: " leo[/quote]
Yeah, I liked that too. :)

[aegon6]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1670959' date='Feb 2 2009, 15.46']Its a paradox. Alpert only has the compass because Locke gave it to him and Locke only has the compass because Alpert gave it to him.[/quote]
That's not really a paradox (an inconsistency). It's just that this compass is an object that exists although it has never been created.

[Lightning Lord]

[quote name='snowleo' post='1671290' date='Feb 2 2009, 13.48']Good catch all you who think Blonde other girl = Faraday's mom! I admit, the thought didn't even cross my mind. I'm not good with faces, and I thought she was maybe the same as Oxford coma-girl. Coma-girl isn't anyone we've met, is she?

Another question--Widmore told Ben that the island was "his"--any thoughts on this? I can't see Widmore getting "chosen" as leader of the Others, but perhaps he took control of them by some other means, only to be somehow banished by Ben?

snow " "awwwwed" out-loud at Desmond/Penny's baby-name :love: " leo[/quote]


Just to check, do we KNOW that was Faraday's mom, or is it a solid theory based on his reaction to seeing her up the barrel of a rifle?

Also, I also thought the baby name was awesome/touching.
(I don't remember anything about a compass, I am not terribly observant)

[Mya Stone]

[quote name='Lightning Lord' post='1671390' date='Feb 2 2009, 15.44']Just to check, do we KNOW that was Faraday's mom, or is it a solid theory based on his reaction to seeing her up the barrel of a rifle?[/quote]
We don't know for sure, but what we do know is that Ms. Hawking's first name is Eloise (they replay last week's Lost the hour before the new episodes with pop-ups, and that was said).

The chick with the rifle's name is "Ellie," which to us, sounds like a nick for Eloise. In that same vein, Ms. Hawking seems to know a lot about the island (and how to find it); oh, and Daniel's rat was named Eloise, so we all think that that makes her Faraday's mom. (And his comment about how she reminds him of...someone.)

Oh, and snow, it seems possible that Widmore [i]was[/i] chosen, only to be banished - perhaps he had to turn the Frozen Donkey Wheel and move the Island? He seemed to be at odds with Richard - which is not a good thing if you want to be the leader. (Just ask Ben!)

And to those that said that Ben couldn't kill Widmore - I think it's more along the lines that the Island does not want him dead, not that you can't kill other Others. (Much like it wouldn't let Michael die until it was time.)

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Mya Stone' post='1671434' date='Feb 2 2009, 16.37']Oh, and snow, it seems possible that Widmore [i]was[/i] chosen, only to be banished - perhaps he had to turn the Frozen Donkey Wheel and move the Island? He seemed to be at odds with Richard - which is not a good thing if you want to be the leader. (Just ask Ben!)

And to those that said that Ben couldn't kill Widmore - I think it's more along the lines that the Island does not want him dead, not that you can't kill other Others. (Much like it wouldn't let Michael die until it was time.)[/quote]

As the last episode shown, Ben's position as leader wasn't taken by John but rather Ben was just a substitute leader until John showed up. Also, Richard just never told Ben just how long he's known of Locke or known him.

As I mentioned before {I have no idea if it's in this thread or the last}, the leader of the Others is either Richard or whoever can speak to Jacob. I don't see Widmore fitting the role of Jacobspeaker or Elie either. Of course, I don't see the reason why Richard can't speak to Jacob himself. What else can Ben and John {Hugo as well and possibly Desmond} do that Richard can't? What makes them special?

[quote]That's not really a paradox (an inconsistency). It's just that this compass is an object that exists although it has never been created.[/quote]

Common themes in paradoxes include self-reference, the infinite, circular definitions, and confusion of levels of reasoning.

Richard to John to Richard to John, sounds circular to me. "Yeah, well, what comes around, goes around."

[Lightning Lord]

[quote name='Fatuous' post='1671553' date='Feb 2 2009, 17.20']As I mentioned before {I have no idea if it's in this thread or the last}, the leader of the Others is either Richard or whoever can speak to Jacob. I don't see Widmore fitting the role of Jacobspeaker or Elie either. Of course, I don't see the reason why Richard can't speak to Jacob himself. What else can Ben and John {Hugo as well and possibly Desmond} do that Richard can't? What makes them special?[/quote]

It seemed like Richard could speak to Jacob, at least in the past. The only reason he spoke to Locke in 1954 was because Locke knew about Jacob. Richard then relented and had a chat with John. I know that this isn't straight-out declared, but I think Richard was able to speak to Jacob.

[Caligula_K]

Charles Widmore was on Flight of the Conchords last night. Which means hopefully we're getting a Lost/Conchords crossover! Bret and Jemaine singing songs on the island, wee!