Lost Season 5 Thread 2

[Shryke]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1670537' date='Feb 1 2009, 21.38']That's an interesting idea. In [i]The Shape of Things to Come[/i], in the excellent Ben/Widmore confrontation, Widmore asks Ben if he's going to kill him and he says no and Widmore knows that Ben can't kill him.

The prohibition may also be why the mercs were sent to the Island to capture or kill Ben, as there's nothing stopping someone else from killing Ben, but Widmore can't do it directly (assuming he is still bound by the rules of the Others; he may not be anymore).[/quote]

Another interesting thing I just realised from this episode.

The prohibition against killing an Other may be why Ben is so convinced they won't kill Alex. She's an Other, so Ben is SURE that Widmore won't kill her. When Keamy does, Ben claims "The rules have changed". And he's right.

[G'Kar]

There is an implied rule that "No Other shall kill another Other"" though this was violated when Juliet shot Picket, and all she got was a slap on the wrist. I think its subjective, completely depending on the whim of the island (example of Michael being unable to shoot himself). Which makes me wonder why Ben blames Widmore, but doesn't also blame the island/Jacob for not protecting his daughter (maybe he does?). Also, why were the Losties able to kill Ethan, Tom ect...?

[Shryke]

It's only a rule for the Others, of which the Losties are not.

As for Picket, he was violating an order at the time as I remember, which is probably why Juliet got away with it. I'm sure Ben helped her out in that too if need be.

[G'Kar]

Then why would Ben think Alex wouldn't be killed by Keamy? Keamy isn't an Other, and I highly doubt Widmore actually ordered Keamy to specifically kill Ben's daughter. I heard the commentary for the episode, and iirc, they said that Ben had miscalculated. That he thought he could manipulate his way out of this one and still have his daughter survive.

I don't think its a hard and fast rule anyway. The Island decides who to protect, and who not to protect. Like if Sawyer tried to kill Alpert, I bet he would fail.

[Shryke]

What's the Island got to do with it? It seems to be a rule of the Others society. And maybe it WAS just Ben thinking he had it all under control.

[Jaxom 1974]

Perhaps Ben simply expected that the Island would be Alex's safeguard...?

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1672850' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.47']What's the Island got to do with it? It seems to be a rule of the Others society. And maybe it WAS just Ben thinking he had it all under control.[/quote]

Maybe. The Meet Kevin Johnson episode showed that the island (or some force) prevents people from dying if they have some purpose. We see this with Michael and the failed suicide, with Locke surviving a bullet to the spine ect... So I think it is the island that is protecting Widmore from Ben and vice versa, and not the rule "Minba...errr Others do not kill Others."

[Quijote Light]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1672857' date='Feb 3 2009, 17.52']Maybe. The Meet Kevin Johnson episode showed that the island (or some force) prevents people from dying if they have some purpose. We see this with Michael and the failed suicide, with Locke surviving a bullet to the spine ect... So I think it is the island that is protecting Widmore from Ben and vice versa, and not the rule "Minba...errr Others do not kill Others."[/quote]
Don't know if that really works, unless just such an attempt has occured before. How would either one know the other was protected unless they had seen the effect? And that would entail each having tried to kill the other and having a fairly obvious, island-caused reason for why they were not succesful. I'm more with Shryke's idea that it is a law/rule amongst the Others, that may even extend to exiled Others.

I think exile is the case with Whidmore by the way. I think he may possibly have been a contender for leader, but that something Locke did forced him into exile. Whether that had to do with the wheel I don't know.

For some reason, Jack's tattoo makes me think of Richard. He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us. Just a thought I had while watching last episode.

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='Quijote Light' post='1672880' date='Feb 3 2009, 20.14']For some reason, Jack's tattoo makes me think of Richard. He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us. Just a thought I had while watching last episode.[/quote]

You think that Jack is the next Richard Alpert? Interesting...

The Losties are the next group of replacements for the various parts the island wants/needs...

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Quijote Light' post='1672880' date='Feb 3 2009, 19.14']Don't know if that really works, unless just such an attempt has occured before. How would either one know the other was protected unless they had seen the effect? And that would entail each having tried to kill the other and having a fairly obvious, island-caused reason for why they were not succesful. I'm more with Shryke's idea that it is a law/rule amongst the Others, that may even extend to exiled Others.[/quote]

Its either the island is blatently protecting Widmore from Ben, or Ben knows that a violation of the rule will result in some horrific consequence, because their is no way I can see Ben staying his hand just because of that rule. The guy killed his daughter. And rules are meant to be broken (Julliette kills Pickett, Widmore snaps the neck of that guy).

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1673042' date='Feb 3 2009, 22.39']The Losties are the next group of replacements for the various parts the island wants/needs...[/quote]

The island better hurry because there ain't many left. I'm amazed how many survivors got killed off last episode. Pretty soon, their will be no red shirts left. :(

[Fatuous]

Let's get something straight here; Laws imply organization, rules imply game. What I think most of you are doing is casting John's choice of not killing an Other {John's own Book of Laws} onto Linus and Widmore's relationship. I still don't fully know either of their motives but I'm pretty certain they don't give much of a crap for other people and organizations, only possessions and people that fall under that category.

Here's my view of their rule/rules: It's chess. Kill all the pawns you want but leave the king and what is his alive. To do otherwise would be unsportsmanlike.

[Caligula_K]

[quote name='Fatuous' post='1673132' date='Feb 4 2009, 00.18']Let's get something straight here; Laws imply organization, rules imply game. What I think most of you are doing is casting John's choice of not killing an Other {John's own Book of Laws} onto Linus and Widmore's relationship. I still don't fully know either of their motives but I'm pretty certain they don't give much of a crap for other people and organizations, only possessions and people that fall under that category.

Here's my view of their rule/rules: It's chess. Kill all the pawns you want but leave the king and what is his alive. To do otherwise would be unsportsmanlike.[/quote]

I support this theory (the whole "rules/the island prevents murder theories are pretty convoluted) but we do need a better reason for why Ben didn't just kill Widmore then and there than that he wanted to be sportsmanlike; the man had his daughter killed! But I think that reason can be pretty mundane; maybe Ben would prefer to take vengeance by killing Penny so that Widmore knows what it feels like to lose a daughter.

[Shryke]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1673070' date='Feb 3 2009, 23.10']Its either the island is blatently protecting Widmore from Ben, or Ben knows that a violation of the rule will result in some horrific consequence, because their is no way I can see Ben staying his hand just because of that rule. The guy killed his daughter. And rules are meant to be broken (Julliette kills Pickett, Widmore snaps the neck of that guy).[/quote]

Why? What makes you think Ben doesn't follow the rules of the Others?

These people very seriously believe that they are "Good People". And it doesn't just seem to be in the trite sense, but in an actually "We are the Elightened" sense.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1673321' date='Feb 4 2009, 05.37']Why? What makes you think Ben doesn't follow the rules of the Others?[/quote]

Because he is Ben.

The dialogue between Widmore and Ben is ambiguous (unsurprising in LOST). Widmore does ask if Ben is going to kill him, but Ben replies "You know I CAN"T do that," which implies something is preventing him from doing so.

Here is a quote from Lostpedia. Not sure what Team Darlton (Damon/Cartlon Cuse?) is, but it is claimed to be from an ABC pdocast.

[quote]Team Darlton confirmed in the most recent abc.com podcast (May 19) that the reason Ben and Widmore cannot kill each other is because they both are abiding by a set of rules set by the island and therefore the island will not let them die/kill each other until their work is done, much in the same fashion as Michael's inability to die earlier this season.[/quote]

[Lightning Lord]

G'Kar, that makes sense. It explains why Ben has Sayid running around, offing people. Maybe they have to have pawns do things for them, as if they are the kings of their respective sides. That quote makes it seem like Widmore is pretty safe, though.

I wonder how they know when their work is done? Ben knew he couldn't kill Widmore, but at some point, Widmore's work has to be done, right? Ben obviously thinks his work isn't done, even though he has said that he can never go back. So, how does he know Widmore's work isn't done?

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Brahm_K' post='1673140' date='Feb 4 2009, 00.29']I support this theory (the whole "rules/the island prevents murder theories are pretty convoluted) but we do need a better reason for why Ben didn't just kill Widmore then and there than that he wanted to be sportsmanlike; the man had his daughter killed! But I think that reason can be pretty mundane; maybe Ben would prefer to take vengeance by killing Penny so that Widmore knows what it feels like to lose a daughter.[/quote]

What is Ben's ultimate goal? "You know I can't do that."; From a contextual standpoint, a lot of what has happened that can be called "miraculous" or the "will of the Island" has occured to prevent Paradoxes from popping up by keeping those that have travelled to the past from their past Fate {Easy as 1, 2, 3}. The Darlton answer may end up as smoke and mirrors but but from a very real and scientifically verifiable point, Widmore can't die until he 1) Sent the freighter crew to the Island and 2) Send Desmond to Ms. Hawking {Why? See Desmond's timeslide}. There's possibly a 3) that we don't know about.

I still think Ben's meeting with Widmore was just to get Desmond sent to LA. I can make two assumptions over the game that's being played between Widmore and Linus {It's a game to them because they know they can't die because there can't be Paradoxes in the Universe. Widmore even funds a mad scientist specializing in time travel theories}:

1) Michael Emerson played Ben Linus in 1984 and 2004. Alpert doesn't age at all.
2) Widmore was on the Island in 1954 but he doesn't look 70; Hawking does.

There aren't enough facts to draw a definite conclusion but the picture looks a lot like Dorian Gray.

I am constantly impressed that people think that Ben's human enough to get revenge for his daughter's death in season 5 while he spent seasons 2-4 playing mind games with anybody who talked to him.

[Lightning Lord]

[quote name='Fatuous' post='1673633' date='Feb 4 2009, 10.25']I am constantly impressed that people think that Ben's human enough to get revenge for his daughter's death in season 5 while he spent seasons 2-4 playing mind games with anybody who talked to him.[/quote]

I think Ben wants revenge for his daughter because I want to believe the guy is human and a multi-dimensional character. If he doesn't want revenge, if he doesn't really care that his daughter is dead, he becomes very one-sided. If the "good guys" on the show (Jack, Kate, Locke, etc) have things about them that make them imperfectly "good," I think the "bad guys" should have similar quirks. Sawyer has things about him to like, Widmore seems to care for his daughter and Jin (who was painted very negatively) ended up being a total sweetheart.

I think Ben is human enough to care for his daughter. He is still a ruthless SOB, but I just don't want to think that that is all he is.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Lightning Lord' post='1673567' date='Feb 4 2009, 10.39']I wonder how they know when their work is done? Ben knew he couldn't kill Widmore, but at some point, Widmore's work has to be done, right? Ben obviously thinks his work isn't done, even though he has said that he can never go back. [b]So, how does he know Widmore's work isn't done?[/b][/quote]

Good question. We simply do not know enough yet about the relationship between Widmore and Ben to know. As more will be revealed about who Widmroe really is and why he was kicked off the island, I think we will get a better grasp of what his true intentions are, and not what Ben spins.


[quote]I am constantly impressed that people think that Ben's human enough to get revenge for his daughter's death in season 5 while he spent seasons 2-4 playing mind games with anybody who talked to him.[/quote]

I wouldn't have thought so before The Shape of Things to Come. But after? Its pretty clear Ben cared for Alex (he is not completely inhuman after all). He has shown some very human emotions (jealousy, anger, and now grief). He wants revenge.

[The hairy bear]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1673070' date='Feb 4 2009, 05.10']Its either the island is blatently protecting Widmore from Ben, or Ben knows that a violation of the rule will result in some horrific consequence, because their is no way I can see Ben staying his hand just because of that rule.[/quote]

I believe "the rule" that prevents Ben to kill Widmore has to do with the time travels. As we know you can't significally alter what has already happened. If in the past Ben had received knowledge that Widmore is alive at some point in the future, then he cannot be killed until this point of the future.

Let's put it another way. Richard has received a visit from John in the past. If he tried to murder Jhon when he is born, probably "the Island" would prevent it from happen somehow, since John has already done things that affect the past as it is established.